BSBKJVWEBYLTASVBBEWMBT4TDBY|HymnsMusicDonate
Menu
General

Does God Hate Divorce?

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006

Yesterday while downloading some free music from Don Francisco's website I came across this article that he had written. I wonder what y'alls spin on this is. I disagree with this completely... but wonder what everyone else thinks. Point of interest: Don Francisco has been thru a divorce. (Thats not a judgement against him! It's merely a fact that you should know when reading this because I think it sheds light on his own perspective.)

Krispy

[b]Does God Hate Divorce?[/b]

[i]Of course, marriages are intended to be lifelong. But in this imperfect world divorce can sometimes be lifesaving. (Even God has been through a divorce. That's right, click on the above link, "Is Divorce A Sin?") The widely used verse in Malachi, where God seems to state that He "hates divorce", is mistranslated. What God hates is literally "the putting out" of a woman.

Putting out is altogether different than divorce in Jewish culture. A man would permanently kick his wife out, denying her the Jewish divorce certificate. This woman would still be legally married, but with no home. Her dowry and children would be retained by the husband. She would have already surrendered her virginity to him. She would be ineligible to remarry, since technically, she was still legally bound to her husband. Further, her culture would label her as an adulteress since she did not have a valid divorce certificate. And this lady couldn't just rent an apartment and get a job teaching kindergarten - there was no place for a put out woman in Jewish culture of that day except prostitution. Since the marriages were most often arranged, this whole horrible chain of events would have been completely out of her control.

The husband, however, was free to marry again and to do this as much as he liked. That is why Moses required a divorce certificate to be given... so that the marriage was legally, fairly, and religiously terminated and the woman would be free to remarry and go on with life.

For more info about this topic, do a search on the word "agunah". That means "chained women". The act of putting a woman out is still happening and today there are 1000s of "chained women" in Israel! A Jewish divorce certificate is so valuable that often after a man puts out a woman, he will legally obtain the certificate and then sell it to the highest bidder. "Agunah" is one of the greatest problems faced by orthodox Judaism today.

All over the Bible we have ignorantly and clumsily translated "put out" as "divorce". This has caused many errant doctrines to be formed and made a terrible mess out of millions of people's lives. The toll in human suffering because of our ignorance is overwhelming. The Bible simply does not say that God hates divorce. It says that God hates the putting away.

In the New Testament, Jesus continues to address this cruel breach of human rights. Nearly all of the verses translated "divorce" in the Gospels actually say "put away". It is a completely different situation which we have no equivalent for. Knowing this makes a world of difference. For instance, many believe that Christian remarriage is adultery. But Jesus did not say that if a man marries a divorced woman, he would be committing adultery. He said that if a man married a "put out" woman, he would be committing adultery. This is because she was technically still married! In Israel, putting a woman out is a devastating, intentional ruination of a woman's life. God still hates it.

We have mangled the meaning of what is going on here and used it to place people under a different type of legalism. The worst result of this mistake is that when a marriage does break down, people will often believe that God rejects them, and they will lose their faith just when they need it the most.

There are myriads of reasons why marriage relationships break down. God hates it when a heavy, inflexible grid of legalism is imposed on people and they are broken and turn away from Him as a result. It is obvious that marriages are intended to be lifelong and that every attempt should be made to reconcile and to recapture the first love that founded the relationship. But in this imperfect world, God's provision of divorce is sometimes vital, and can be lifesaving.[/i]

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006


Hi Krispy,

Before this thread gets off the ground, I would like to refer you to Don's Live Concert, in which he makes a comment about divorce before he sings Love Is Not A Feeling.

Also, I'm going to own up to asking Jordan to post the thread about Don's music, because it had helped me immensely at a deeply spiritual level both before and after I left my husband, and certainly not only because of that circumstance in which I found myself.

I know you know a bit about my personal story..... well, as it happens (seeing you've posted this thread), I know a bit about Don's. I've met him three times. The first time, he prayed for me, and God really touched something of my inner-man numbness, and healed it. The second time, I (with two other Christians) prayed for him - at his request specifically pertaining to his marriage. (I have no intention of being drawn to discuss those details either here in public, [u]or privately[/u].) The third time, I met his second wife briefly, and testified to them both of God's healing work in my life.

You will know I've contributed extensively to a different thread on this subject (divorce), and have not completed all which should be answered there (as I intend to).

I would like to point out that Romans 7:1 - 3 has the roles reversed regarding the possibility of a second marriage [b]while a first one is still in force[/b]. I feel this backs up Don's main point - that [u]a divorce certificate[/u] sets a person free to remarry.

As I've said in other threads, this does not, of itself, put a person's [b]heart[/b] right with God over any sin (sexual or otherwise) which they may have committed (related or not to their marriage); therefore, it is necessary clearly to separate in one's thinking the difference between marriage being a matter of the flesh, and sin being a matter of the spirit.

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006

Hold on... before we get off the ground, let me state emphatically that this is [b]NOT[/b] about Don Francisco! This is about what was written in this article, which is not a new argument. I've heard this before. I posted this article because it was articulate, to the point and brief.

My hope is that this thread focuses on this teaching, and not the person who wrote it.

Don has been gifted by God, and I have been very blessed by his music. I dont consider him to be a false teacher just because I disagree with this article. I'm sure I'm off base in some of my theology too. Don has written many good articles to which I say a hearty amen.

So lets discuss this article, and not Don. As far as I know Don is not an elder or pastor... he is a minstrel. There is nothing in scripture that says he can not minister in that vein.

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006

I gotta get a young man squared away for travel, so I cant really....engage, but i wlll say this, as the Lord leads:

Grace is grace, and God is love, now if that is a "touchy-feely" Gospel, (and people have made that reference before) so be it.

so be it.

neil

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006

God is love, of that I am sure. And God is merciful and full of grace.

But God will not do anything that contradicts His Word.

Krispy

J
jordanamo Nov 28, 2006

I disagree with Don in some sense. He didn't emphasize a lot that I woud've. Marriage is a covenant that you enter into. If you enter into that covenant at maturity in the Spirit, you may not leave it (like it's not a big deal)-- if you do, it would be a tragedy of tragedies-- much like exiting the covenant you make with God at maturity. (For example, if Peter had denied Christ after his maturity climatic point, which I would declare to be around Pentecost, and after Pentecost said, 'I don't know Jesus!'-- he would be in such a grave, sinful area that I know not if he woudl be spared, for his maturity and responsibility at that level-- compared to his immaturity and child spirit before the.. power came from on high etc. etc.)

If you enter into that (covenant, marriage) as a child in the Spirit and so-forth, I'd suppose you are fine to leave it insofar as you are not responsible for your actions to a degree when you were apart of the world etc. (Does one hold a baby's mistakes truly against them in the future/present etc.? No. A mature adult? Yes.)

Nonetheless it is between you and God and no one else. The mature person in the Spirit should not enter into a marriage covenant with a person of a reprobate mind. If they do, they are walking on very very dangerous waters of which I know not.

I could be wrong of course but that's just what I think God means when he says he hates divorce. He doesn't hate all divorces, just the divorces of a person who entered into it at maturity in the Spirit. Also, when it comes to abusive relationships, I believe that if you entered into it at maturity in the Spirit, you should not divorce, still, but I could be wrong. It is really again just between you and God. No one but you (or, God really) can say if you were at maturity in the Spirit when you entered into that covenant.

Jordan

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006

Jordan... the Bible says God hates divorce. It doesnt attempt to qualify that statement. It says "God hates divorce". It's pretty dangerous to not just take the Word at face value, but instead attempt to make it mean something that it's not saying.

Krispy

J
jordanamo Nov 28, 2006

Krispy, if you take the things the Bible says out of context in God's Divine Plan/Nature revealed in the Bible, you can attempt to qualify any statement you want to through all the verses. It's dangerous to take the Word at its face value when you need to take it into context to His Nature/Plan etc. etc. You must not have understood a word that I said, which I am sorry for. If you can't understand the comparison of the marriage covenant to the Jesus covenant, where both are the same in nature, I can't convince you with anything. The Spirit must show you this Divine Truth.

I will try to simplify.

The marriage covenant, much like the Jesus covenant, cannot be broken in immaturity and childness of the Spirit. As the child and immaturity of the Spirit are not held accountable insofar as the mature and adult of the Spirit are. I pray the Spirit will reveal that to you.

Of course, God still hates divorce, always. Even in the immaturity of Spirit of a person, he still hates it, of course. I'm just saying it's not like you're bound by the marriage for ever if you had entered into it at immaturity of the Spirit. Nor are you somehow denied going into the ministry if you had a divorce in your immaturity and childness of Spirit.

[Edit: I apologize for saying that God doesn't hate all divorces in previous post, he does, just noticed I said that. I meant though that he doesn't hold the divorce to the person (of immaturity) as he would a person of maturity in the Spirit. So I now sorta get what you meant, although you still didn't show any sign of understanding of what I was saying.]

Jordan

S
SAJ Nov 28, 2006

Here are some scriptures that I think should be heard out. I would reference you to the gospels where Jesus plainly states that the ONLY reason that God allows divorce is because of the hardness of hearts; Scripturally, God does not want us to divorce (I would still agree that this means that God hates divorce - "the putting out of a woman" still means that a man is doing what he ought not to do scripturally as a husband) - verse references:

1 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?”
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?” 8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.”
10 His disciples said to Him, “If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” Matt 19:1-10

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Matt 5:31-32

1 Then He arose from there and came to the region of Judea by the other side of the Jordan. And multitudes gathered to Him again, and as He was accustomed, He taught them again.
2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.
3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”
5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’;[b] so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. 11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
Mark 10:1-15

18 “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Luke 16:18

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
1 Cor 7:10-16


By these verses, it seems that outside of Malachi that God seems to imply that He still hates divorce. "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate (Mat 19:6)."

N
NLONG Nov 28, 2006

I have honestly never heard this teaching! How does this jive with 1 Cor. 7:39 "The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord." This is very similar to Romans 7:1-3 and would also be consistant with the teachings of Jesus about marrying a divorced man or woman being adultery.

However, this isn't about remarriage as much as it is about what is putting away--divorce or some twisted practice where the man will not divorce. Seems to me divorce. Hey, lets look to the Pharisee's for the answer! The answer is in Mk 10:2-4,

Pharisee's ask is it lawful to put away a wife.
Jesus--what did Moses command
Pharisee's--write a bill of divorcement
Jesus--Moses wrote this precept be/c hardness of hearts. Then sights Genesis 2 about the "rules" of marriage and says What God has joined, let not man put asunder.

Seems to me that they are talking divorce, divorce, divorce. Why would the Pharisee's be talking about something and Jesus about another matter almost entirely. I would think that Jesus would confront putting away if that really wasn't divorce.

sermonindex Nov 28, 2006

Seems to me that they are talking divorce, divorce, divorce. Why would the Pharisee's be talking about something and Jesus about another matter almost entirely. I would think that Jesus would confront putting away if that really wasn't divorce.

Bingo! Great observation. Now that is seeing it in context.

Jordan, I dont think the Spirit is going to reveal to me that what you're saying is truth because I dont believe it is. God holds us accountable for sin regardless of where we are in maturity. If I took what you're saying out to it's logical conclusion, then we'd have to say that the unrepentant sinner will go straight into heaven because he had no Spiritual maturity (since he was never saved), and God will not hold him accountable.

I dont know where you found this theology of your's, but I think now would be a good time to show us in scripture where you're coming from. There is a saying in law enforcement: Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Granted, we do go thru a maturation as we walk with Christ. I've been a Christian for a little more than a decade, and I'll make mistakes that someone who has been walking with Him for 40 years probably wont make. But no where in scripture do I see that God will hold me less accountable. Sin is sin. Instead of a death sentence for our sins, we get chastised. Spanked, if you will.

But I'm no less accountable.

By the way, claiming that I've taken something out of context as a way of debating an issue is not a good way to debate. You offer no example of what I've taken out of context, and no scripture to back your thoughts.

Jordan... I'm [b]NOT[/b] upset, or chewing you out. I want to better understand your position, and see if maybe I'm not understanding something. Dont bail on me, bro...

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006

How many times are we going to have this argument on this forum about divorce and remarriage?

and I say "argument", coz its a not a discussion, you said you "totally disagree" with what this man wrote, and then you want "comments". You don't want want comments, you want argument, face it, be real.

So i ask again, HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE GONNA HAVE YET ANOTHER TEDIOUS BORING NEO-PHARIASICAL THREAD ON THIS FORUM ABOUT DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE?

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006

Krispy wrote to you:

Dont bail on me, bro...

bail....have no part in this tedious unedifying rehash of an argument that has been held over and over and over and over again on this forum.

Its is of NO PROFIT.

and Krispy, this is a young man in the Lord, he's not one of the football players you coach where you teach him to "hit them right underneath their pads". Don't do this, don't bait him. If you do, you will be in sin.

J
jordanamo Nov 29, 2006

I don't know what I'm talking about. I shouldn't have entered into this discussion acting like I understood this, lol.

Jordan

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006

and Krispy, this is a young man in the Lord, he's not one of the football players you coach where you teach him to "hit them right underneath their pads". Don't do this, don't bait him. If you do, you will be in sin.

You minunderstood or misinterpretted my intent... I'm not trying to beat Jordan down. I'm attempting to help him think through what he is saying. If you re-read what I posted in light of that, perhaps you will see it.

Everyone is free to challenge me on anything, thats how I learn. Hopefully Jordan isnt afraid to be challenged either.

As for this topic... no, we will discuss it if anyone wants to. :-) Just cuz you're tired of it doesnt necessarily mean others are. I cant think of a single topic that hasnt been beaten to death on here. If someone doesnt want to participate, then dont participate. There are plenty of topics on here that either dont interest me, or I'm tired of... and I choose not to participate.

Love ya Neil...!

Krispy

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006


Hi Krispy,

In your words below, you clearly state that you believe Don's Bible study and article were influenced by his experience. That's what you said, right?

'Point of interest: Don Francisco has been thru a divorce. (Thats not a judgement against him! It's merely a fact that you should know when reading this [b]because [u]I think[/u] it sheds light on his own perspective[/b].)'

Did it cross your mind that his Bible study may have preceded his divorce?

Then you say

Hold on... before we get off the ground, let me state emphatically that this is NOT about Don Francisco! This is about what was written in this article,
.... so I hope you see why I posted what I did. It sounded very much as if you were disqualifying his Bible study, because he is divorced, and had he not been divorced, but posted the same article, you might have looked at the article more objectively in the light of scripture. True?

Further, for avoidance of doubt, I posted what I did to [i]challenge[/i] your inference that anything Don wrote about divorce must [i][b]necessarily[/i][/b] have been modified by your inference that any justification of divorce on his part, somehow contradicts the commonly held assertion that 'God hates divorce'.


So, I just did a quick word search for a text which supports 'God hates divorce' and I couldn't find one either under 'divorce' or 'put away'.

This surprised me so I'd be grateful if you could post the scripture you have in mind?

I hope you will also post the scriptures covering where God divorces Israel, and where He breaks His covenant with them. Thanks. :-)

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006


jordan said

I could be wrong of course but that's just what I think God means when he says he hates divorce. He doesn't hate all divorces,
Krispy,

I think Jordan is tuning into the fact that marriage is a matter of the flesh, and pointing out that spiritual immaturity may contribute to a lack of what the Bible calls 'understanding', in general.

It is clear from scripture that divorce itself is not a sin and that God forgives sin, therefore, I'm not sure how you or anyone can make - as Don Francisco would put it - 'a second unforgivable sin' - of divorce.

God still loves and uses divorced people. We are in danger of making a god out of marriage - or divorce - if we do not [i]see[/i] that God is above holding a divorce against a person.

That doesn't mean we should not aspire to a world where all marriage is exactly as God desires, but, we have to be realistic and take [i][b]the rest[/i][/b] of His (written) word into our spiritual intelligence as well, or the world will simply be fuller of broken people than it is already.

The fact is, God has made a way of escape from sin and some people need to admit they are living in sin, not 'marriage' and they need to get out [u]in order to save their souls[/u].

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006

Actually, this article was part of a series of articles on divorce that he wrote, all about the same time. In one of the other installments he mentioned he had been thru a divorce, so these were written after that had happened.

Now I stated that he had been divorced because I hear these arguments more from people who have been thru it than those who have not. I'm not trying to suggest that people who have been thru divorce are trying to justify it by twisting scripture, but I do think knowing that the author had had this awful experience helps us to understand his perspective. I'm actually trying to be fair to Don... not knock him.

I mentioned it in the interest of full disclosure. I pondered the idea of not revealing who had written, but I knew someone would ask so I decided to disclose it.

Even tho I disagree with his position, he is a brother in Christ, and God has used him mightily. In one of the articles he argues that divorce does not disqualify one from leadership in the church. I believe he is wrong, and in fact Don's own ministry prooves that God DOES use divorced people to minister... but not from a leadership position such as elder/pastor.

Be careful saying that God broke His covenant with Israel. He didnt break it... Israel did. Once one party breaks a contract, the other is no longer bound by it.

My God has never broken a covenant.

Krispy

N
NLONG Nov 29, 2006

So i ask again, HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE GONNA HAVE YET ANOTHER TEDIOUS BORING NEO-PHARIASICAL THREAD ON THIS FORUM ABOUT DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE?

Is it not sensible to admonish, teach, reprove and rebuke our brethren? 2 Tim. 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." It is commanded time and time again that we should follow the doctrines handed down by those who followed Christ at the first. Christians have become so thin skined that the mere mention of differing in understanding is seen as division and argument. God bless the man who will love his brother enough to exort him to truth and to walk in it.

The question that I would ask is how long will the church tolerate sin and teach it as correct doctrine?

The main question that I have about divorce and remarrige is: what about the remarried. Since Jesus and his earliest followers taught it was indeed sin, what happens to the remarried. Seems to me if adulterers will not inherit the kingdom the only thing left is to repent. This in my book means dissolve the adulterous relationship. Perhaps this seems too radical. Perhaps this seems to unloving or unforgiving. What will we give in exchange for our soul?

Thoughts?

sermonindex Nov 29, 2006

NLONG wrote

Jesus and his earliest followers taught it was indeed sin
He and they did not.

Sorry if this post seems a bit inconclusive. I agree with Krispy that one need not post if one is not interested any more in a topic, but this subject [i]has[/i] been extensively covered on SermonIndex already. Please use the search facility to see what has already been written, bearing in mind that God's word is often (if not always) counterintuitive to the carnal mind and the traditions and doctrines of men.

Many of us have spent much more than hours - literally years - coming to an understanding of God's heart on these matters, and we conclude that He is merciful, gracious and forgiving. His kindness extends to remarriage for some, often against the background of the parties being more than willing to remain single.....

This discussion is locked.

Archived
1 of 199 posts