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What I saw

C
ChrisJD Nov 29, 2006

Greetings everyone.

I wanted to share some thoughts with you all about the two news items that were posted here concerning the transgender teacher and the potential suicide bomber.

It may sound surprising but I can identify with these stories. I recognise in them my own humanity. I see in their deception my own decievableness. I'm no better than they.

I also see an opportunity to look upon the Cross. I see here an opportunity, by God's grace, to look upon the Cross and peer into the depths into which God Himself entered, by entering into our humanity - to see how low He went in order to redeem us.

How easy it is to forget how low we are. And how high God is.

I pray that God would grant me grace to see it afresh. And the grace to walk in accordance with the vision.

I
InTheLight Nov 30, 2006

It's a frightful thing to peer into the depths of your own heart and see only a darkened abyss. I remember discovering this in Mark 7...
And He said, That which comes out of the man is what defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things pass out from inside and defile the man.
(Mar 7:20-23)
At first I rejected these words, "no, my heart is not that bad!" I said. Then the Lord said, "look again." And I saw it was all true.

What a blessing to know your true state, it causes your measure of God's love and grace to grow tremendously.

In Christ,

Ron

T
Tears_of_joy Nov 30, 2006

When I read this post, immediately came to my mind one verse that God showed me (about me) not too long ago:

[b]Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?[/b]

Oh Lord it's not me...really?

It's all mercy, it's all grace.
We are here just because of the blood of the Lamb of God.
Try to boost, next step you're down.

It made great impression to my mind reading one article called [url=http://www.heraldofhiscoming.com/Past%20Issues/2006/July/living_in_partnership_with_god.htm]Living in Partnership With God[/url] the author said this:

One of the things we must be careful of when God gives us spiritual victories, is to understand that we are still on the journey, on this side of heaven. Some of us have become smug and proud of where we are spiritually. We have become very condescending toward people who have fallen into sin, and we come across as if we could never do that. Pride and arrogance grip us. We need to be very careful of saying what we would never do. [b]I have found that the key to my victory is understanding that at any given moment, I could do the most despicable thing in the world. [u]I need God every hour![/u][/b] If you can look at the statement that "God is light…" and then declare you don’t have the capacity to sin, you are leading yourself right into the thing that you are denouncing.

Also I like very much this statement by Roy Hession in his book 'The Calvary Road':

[b]"The simple truth is that the only beautiful thing about the Christian is Jesus Christ"[/b]

Oh I like that.

[b]The grace of God is your strength, as it is your joy; and it is only by abiding in it that you can really live the life of the redeemed. Be strong, then, in this grace; draw your joy out of it; and beware how you turn to anything else for refreshment, or comfort, or holiness. Though a believing man, you are still a sinner; a sinner to the last; and, as such, nothing can suit you but the free love of God. Draw continually on Christ and His fullness for this grace. This abounding grace, rightly understood, will not make you sin; it will not relax morality or make inconsistency a trifle. It will magnify sin and enhance its evil in your eyes.[/b]
-Horatius Bonar ([url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1104]Follow the Lamb[/url])

In Christ,
Kire

C
ChrisJD Nov 30, 2006

Thank you for your replies brothers.

Brother Ron,

It's a frightful thing to peer into the depths of your own heart and see only a darkened abyss

I don't think I've wanted to look in there either, for some time now. I remember how the tears used to just flow and flow at the rememberance of God's goodness and mercy to one so wrethced as I.

Brother Kire, you shared this

Some of us have become smug and proud of where we are spiritually.

I think this happened to me after my conversion. I began to believe that there was something in me which enabled me to live righteously. I think this verse in the scripture puts it very accurately


[b][color=000000] And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.[/color][/b]

Here it was that I was thinking it was somehow, at least partly, because of my own power and might that I had gotten these spiritual riches.

God says in the scripture


[b][color=000000]Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the Lord thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the Lord hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord doth drive them out from before thee. Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.[/color][/b]

I found early on that I was also constantly looking for some reason why God should have been mercifull to me.

Grace be with you.

C
crsschk Dec 2, 2006

Hi Kire,

This was both timely and even somewhat experiential ... it may take some time to sort it all out and make some readable expression of recent days... "Crimes of the mind" that are just as toxic as sins commited as our Lord has always pressed the matter, that which you have emboldened is fact and truth;

One of the things we must be careful of when God gives us spiritual victories, is to understand that we are still on the journey, on this side of heaven. Some of us have become smug and proud of where we are spiritually. We have become very condescending toward people who have fallen into sin, and we come across as if we could never do that. Pride and arrogance grip us. We need to be very careful of saying what we would never do. [b]I have found that the key to my victory is understanding that at any given moment, I could do the most despicable thing in the world.[/b] I need God every hour! If you can look at the statement that "God is light…" and then declare you don’t have the capacity to sin, you are leading yourself right into the thing that you are denouncing.

Take heed ...

T
Tears_of_joy Dec 7, 2006

PROTESTING OUR INNOCENCE? by Roy Hession (The Calvary Road)

We have all become so used to condemning the proud self-righteous attitude of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican,(Luke 18:9-14) that we can hardly believe that the picture of him there is meant to apply to us - which only shows how much like him we really are. The Sunday School teacher was never so much a Pharisee, as when she finished her lesson on this parable with the words, " And now, children, we can thank God that we are not as this Pharisee!" In particular are we in danger of adopting the Pharisee's attitude, when God is wanting to humble us at the Cross of Jesus, and show us the sins in our hearts that are hindering personal revival.

[i]God's Picture of the Human Heart.[/i]

We shall not understand the real wrong of the Pharisee's attitude, nor of our own, unless we view it against the background of what God says about the human heart. Said Jesus Christ, " From within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness."(Mark 7:20-23) The same dark picture of the human heart is given us in Paul's letter to the Galatians, " The works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, divisions, parties, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like."(Gal.5:19-21) What a picture! Jeremiah adds the same witness, "The heart is deceitful above all things (that is, it deceives the man himself, so that he does not know himself) and desperately wicked, who can know it?"(Jer.17:9) Here then is God's picture of the human heart, the fallen self, "the old man,"(Eph.4:22) as the Scripture calls it, whether it be in the unconverted or in the keenest Christian. It is hard to believe that these things can proceed from the heart of ministers, evangelists and Christian workers, but it is true. The simple truth is that the only beautiful thing about the Christian is Jesus Christ. God wants us to recognise that fact as true in our experience, so that in true brokenness and self-despair we shall allow Jesus Christ to be our righteousness and holiness and all in all - and that is victory.

[i]Making God a Liar[/i]

Now in face of God's description of the human heart, we can see what it was that the Pharisee did. In saying, "I thank Thee that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers," he was protesting his innocence of the very things that God says are in every heart. He said in effect," These things are doubtless true of other men - this Publican is even now confessing them - but, Lord, not of me!" And in so saying, he was making God a liar, for " if we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar,"(I John I:10) because He says we have! Yet I feel sure that he was perfectly sincere in what he said. He really did believe that he was innocent of these things. Indeed, he is ascribing his imagined innocence to God, saying," I thank thee . . . " God's word, however, still stood against him. But he just had not seen it. The "penny had not dropped!" If the Publican is beating upon his breast and confessing his sins, it is not because he has sinned worse than the Pharisee. It is simply that the Publican has seen that what God says is woefully true of him, and the Pharisee has not. The Pharisee still thinks that outward abstinence from certain sins is all that God requires. He has not yet understood that God looks, not on the outward appearance, but on the heart,(I Sam.16:7) and accounts the look of lust the equivalent of adultery,(Matt.5:27-28) the attitude of resentment and hate the same as murder,(I John 3:15) envy as actual theft, and the petty tyrannies in the home as wicked as the most extortionate dealings in the market.

How often have not we, too, protested our innocence on the many occasions when God has been convicting others, and when He has wanted to convict us too. We have said in effect, "These things may be true of others, but not of me!" and we may have said so quite sincerely. Perhaps we have heard of others who have humbled themselves and have rather despised them for the confessions they have had to make and the things they had to put right in their lives. Or perhaps we have been genuinely glad that they have been blessed. But, whichever it is, we don't feel that we have anything to be broken about ourselves. Beloved, if we feel we are innocent and have nothing to be broken about, it is not that these things are not there but that we have not seen them. We have been living in a realm of illusion about ourselves. God must be true in all that He says about us. In one form or another, He sees these things expressing themselves in us (unless we have recognised them and allowed God to deal with them) - unconscious selfishness, pride and self-congratulation; jealousy, resentment and impatience; reserve, fears and shyness; dishonesty and deception; impurity and lust; if not one thing, then another. But we are blind to it. We are perhaps so occupied with the wrong the other man has done us, that we do not see that we are sinning against Christ in not being willing to take it with His meekness and lowliness. Seeing so clearly how the other man wants his own way and rights, we are blind to the fact that we want ours just as much; and yet we know there is something missing in our lives. Somehow we are not in vital fellowship with God. We are not spiritually crisp. Our service does not "crackle with the supernatural." Unconscious sin is none the less sin with God and separates us from Him. The sin in question may be quite a small thing, which God will so readily show us, if we are only willing to ask Him.

There is yet another error we fall into, when we are not willing to recognise the truth of what God says of the human heart. Not only do we protest our own innocence, but we often protest the innocence of our loved ones. We hate to see them being convicted and humbled and we hasten to defend them. We do not want them to confess anything. We are not only living in a realm of illusion about ourselves, but about them too, and we fear to have it shattered. But we are only defending them against God - making God a liar on their behalf, as we do on our own, and keeping them from entering into blessing, as we do ourselves.

Only a deep hunger for real fellowship with God will make us willing to cry to God for His all-revealing Light and to obey it when it is given.

[i]Justifying God[/i]

That brings us to the Publican. With all that God says about the human heart in our minds, we can see that his confession of sin was simply a justifying of God, an admission that what God said of him was true. Perhaps like the Pharisee, he used not to believe that what God said about man was really true of him. But the Holy Spirit has shown him things in his life which prove God right, and he is broken. Not only does he justify God in all that he has said, but he doubtless justifies God in all the chastening judgments God has brought upon him. Nehemiah's prayer might well have been his, "Howbeit Thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for Thou hast done right and we have done wickedly."(Neh.9:33)

This is ever the nature of true confession of sin, true brokenness. It is the confession that my sin is not just a mistake, a slip, a something which is really foreign to my heart ("Not really like me to have such thoughts or do such things!"), but that it is something which reveals the real 'I'; that shows me to be the proud, rotten, unclean thing God says I am; that it really is like me to have such thoughts and do such things. It was in these terms that David confessed his sin, when he prayed " Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest and be clear when Thou judgest."(Psalm 51:4) Let us not fear then, to make such a confession where God convicts us that we must, thinking that it will "let Jesus down." Rather the reverse is true, for out of such confession God gets glory, for we declare Him to be right. This brings us to a new experience of victory in Christ, for it declares afresh, that "in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing,"(Rom.7:18) and brings us to a place where we give up trying to make our incorrigible selves holy and where we take Jesus to be our holiness and His life to be our life.

[i]Peace and Cleansing.[/i]

But the Publican did something more than justify God. He pointed to the sacrifice on the altar, and found peace with God and cleansing from sin, as he did so. That comes out in the literal meaning of the words which he uttered, " God be merciful to me, a sinner." In the Greek, the words mean literally, " God be propitiated to me, the sinner." The only way by which a Jew knew that God could be propitiated was by a sacrifice, and, in all probability, at that very hour the lamb for the daily burnt offering was being offered up on the altar in the temple.

With us it is the same. A man never comes to this position of brokenness, but God shows him the Divine Lamb on Calvary's Cross, putting away his sin by the shedding of His Blood. The God who declares beforehand what we are, provides beforehand for our sin. Jesus was the Lamb slain for our sins from the foundation of the world. In Him, who bore them in meekness, my sins are finished. And as I, in true brokenness, confess them, and put my faith in His Blood, they are cleansed and gone. Peace with God then comes into my heart, fellowship with God is immediately restored, and I walk with Him in white.

This simple way of being willing to justify God and see the power of the Blood to cleanse brings within our reach, as never before, a close walk with Jesus, a constant dwelling with Him in the Holy of Holies. As we walk with Him in the Light, He will be showing us all the time the beginnings of things which, if allowed to pass, will grieve Him and check the flow of His life in us - things which are the expression of that old proud self, for which God has nothing but judgment. At no point must we protest our innocence of what He shows us. All along we must be willing to justify Him and say, " Thou art right, Lord; that just shows what I am," and be willing to give it to Him for cleansing. As we do so, we shall find that His precious Blood is continuously cleansing us from sin, and that " the tide is being continuously healed at its beginning," and Jesus is continuously filling us with His Spirit. This demands that we must be men of " a humble and contrite spirit," that is, men who are willing to be shown the smallest thing. But such are the ones, God says, who " dwell with Him in the high and holy place,"(Is.57:15) and who experience continuous revival.

There then is our choice - to protest our innocence and go down to our house, unblessed, dry of soul and out of touch with God. Or to justify God and to enter into peace, fellowship and victory through the Blood of Jesus.

C
crsschk Dec 7, 2006

But, whichever it is, we don't feel that we have anything to be broken about ourselves. Beloved, if we feel we are innocent and have nothing to be broken about, it is not that these things are not there but that we have not seen them. We have been living in a realm of illusion about ourselves. God must be true in all that He says about us. In one form or another, He sees these things expressing themselves in us (unless we have recognised them and allowed God to deal with them) - unconscious selfishness, pride and self-congratulation; jealousy, resentment and impatience; reserve, fears and shyness; dishonesty and deception; impurity and lust; if not one thing, then another. But we are blind to it.

Bless you Kire, there is so much truth here it is difficult to excerpt it.

C
crsschk Dec 7, 2006

This is ever the nature of true confession of sin, true brokenness. It is the confession that my sin is not just a mistake, a slip, a something which is really foreign to my heart ("Not really like me to have such thoughts or do such things!"), but that it is something which reveals the real 'I'; that shows me to be the proud, rotten, unclean thing God says I am; that it really is like me to have such thoughts and do such things. It was in these terms that David confessed his sin, when he prayed " Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest and be clear when Thou judgest."(Psalm 51:4) Let us not fear then, to make such a confession where God convicts us that we must, thinking that it will "let Jesus down." Rather the reverse is true, for out of such confession God gets glory, for we declare Him to be right.
This demands that we must be men of " a humble and contrite spirit," that is, men who are willing to be shown the smallest thing. But such are the ones, God says, who " dwell with Him in the high and holy place,"(Is.57:15) and who experience continuous revival.

This is all so vitally important, all of this being brought to our conscience, my prayer that this whole posting would be deeply considered.

Brethren, am becoming convinced more and more that we will continue to go nowhere but in circles dodging these vital truths about [i]ourselves[/i] while being preoccupied with the sins of the world and sins of the "Church" and His Church the body of us all ...

If I may, an observation and one that I too am often a great contributer to ... We are far too often a complaining lot. Denouncing, judgemental, even the accusation turns back in ourself when we react offended and much the same as is outlined above, Pharisees in heart, Sadducee's in ... A better note on this;

[i] Alford speaks of “the Pharisees representing hypocritical superstition; the Sadducees carnal unbelief.”[/i]

How much truth the reaction unspoken; "Not I", Was Peter insincere when he stated flatly "Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended." ?

This is a great controversy we have with the Lord and being so often lovers of the controversial especially as it amounts to the sins of the present day church, those fallen from grace, politics and a whole host of lesser imports, this tremendous matter is seemingly shoved aside.

A lingering thought from our brother, Robert;

[i] This is a point I have often thought of. Those ministers who have 'fallen' in the faith have already been exposed. Their sins are not following after them.

The sad thing that too often happens is that Christians present their good works before hand and then their sins follow after. We need this in reverse. What if we presented ourselves transparent and was honest and leveled with folk while at the same time not allowing our right hand know what the left hand doeth in our 'good works'? You push your failures in front and allow the good works to follow.

But this is not what I see. I see folk always trying to come off as if they are in perfection or something and you almost never hear of them having to repent. Can this be possible? The sin of slothfulness alone is epidemic in ministry and the church. Not to mention others sins of gluttony and lust and a whole gamut of stuff. We hear a lot of, "I'm doing thus and such for the Lord" but not a whole lot of, "Woe is me for I am undone and have failed the Lord." Its almost as if folk have got it together 24/7/365 and never have a single incident. Well, quite candidly, I'm not there. I still have to repent and ask forgivness of the Lord and men from time to time. I'm not proud of it, but that is reality.[/i]

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=13593&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go]Whatever Happened to Repentance???[/url]

A careful reading of the entirety of that posting would still show a leap in logic in spots ... [i]them[/i] often the emphasis. What indeed if we were to reverse the process? Not in our words and aspirations to live up (or down) to a true level of honesty, but really contrite and humbled?

2Pe 2:1 [i]But there were false prophets also among the people[/i] ... There is an awful lot of exhortation in this chapter and the norm would be to pick and choose, to compare and contrast, finding the easily recognizable, simultaneous errors running concurrent in our day with [i]them[/i]. Absurd to state otherwise, these things are true, they are so, yet taking the reverse of inverse adjection that Robert mentions, [i]our[/i] sins first and good works then following ... our words.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The proverb;

Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

We may be hard pressed to believe it to be so and the point is emphasized so well from Roy Hession:

This is ever the nature of true confession of sin, true brokenness. It is the confession that my sin is not just a mistake, a slip, a something which is really foreign to my heart ("Not really like me to have such thoughts or do such things!"), but that it is something which reveals the real 'I'; that shows me to be the proud, rotten, unclean thing God says I am; that it really is like me to have such thoughts and do such things. It was in these terms that David confessed his sin, when he prayed " Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest and be clear when Thou judgest."(Psalm 51:4) Let us not fear then, to make such a confession where God convicts us that we must, thinking that it will "let Jesus down." Rather the reverse is true, for out of such confession God gets glory, for we declare Him to be right.

It is not foreign, it is fact. The warnings throughout scripture to take heed, what the Lord stated flatly about the flesh in it's weakness .. we may be greatly mis-illusioned because of one great overlooked matter;

We forget.

Forget what we once were, forget how 'the other half lives', the essence of 'such were some of you'. Think you in yourself would not go back to old haunts? Even if it be "Just" toying with it in the mind, where it begins, where the sin can be committed just as predominately as deed though somehow we seem to wiggle out of it subconscious or consciously .. "I didn't go quite that far". Too far according to the Lord, He made no distinction, only to state that there is none.

What would become of us if everything thought was exposed to the light of day, not future but right now? Those sins, this bitterness and pride, inward "outward" bursts of anger only suppressed, kept down...

Much more could be said and am speaking from very real time experience that brought out a lot of very ugly things in days just gone past. A change in circumstances, a sort of 'weariness and toil', being overwhelmed and pressured from many sides... Things that made little to no difference, brought no real concern over suddenly become important, being appreciated, a want of explanation and defending as well as a healthy dose of complaining and whining, outbursts of anger and even vulgar speech, things not uttered in years ... Both a drift and an attack towards temptations, a playing with the thing, crimes of the mind. Sin.

Both a confession and a plea;

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

It has brought a whole different level of understanding to what compassion is, to what contrite feels like and is, humbled quite differently, broken in new places and a slow restoration.

It was ankle deep back in the pig sty to coin a phrase and a realization and remembrance of where and what the darkness is like, how we once were and how easily the snares and true possibilities are always at hand, all the things mentioned throughout this important posting in it's entirety.

May we truly take heed.

C
ChrisJD Dec 7, 2006

Greetings brothers.

After reading the responses from brother Mike I was thinking of different things and at the head of it I think was this

[b][color=000000] Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?[/color][/b]

before the scripture asks

[b][color=000000]Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?[/color][/b]


[b][color=000000]
shall a man

be more pure

than his maker?[/color][/b]

a man?

more [i]pure[/i]?

than his Maker?

May God be pleased to lay all our hearts in the dust before His glory.

Perhaps from there we might be ready to serve Him more acceptably.

Christopher

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