I am looking for information on the relevancy of the gift of apostleship in this day and age. [b]Has this been discussed before?
[b]Does Calvary Chapel believe in apostles?
Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks. :-)
Has this been discussed before?
I could also accept the idea of a modern day apostle being a man that is under the leadership of many and has a paticular relationship with God above the rest. It might sound abit mystical but I also think it is of someone that has seen even a vision of Christ and had a experience beyond other Christians.
Does Calvary Chapel believe in apostles?
Ephesians 4:11 - "And he gave [b]some apostles
The word means being "sent out" I believe in the greek and the interpretation is that of a missionary, being sent to another people group or area. As stated above I agree in some sense with this interpretation.
Thanks for the reply, Greg. Are there any sermons or articles on this topic on SI?
I've seen the gift of apostleship as one who establishes churches, whether local or foreign, and then moves on after God has established the leadership in that church. Like what the apostle Paul did. But some people say that apostles are only those who saw Christ in His life time. Thus, we wouldn't have apostles today.
Would you say that one would [i]have to have
Would you say that one would have to have an experience beyond what a normal Christian would have to be an apostle?
"an experience beyond what a normal Christian would have to be an apostle?" - In that I mean they need to be called of God for that special work. All are not apostles. I was also thinking when I wrote that of the qualifications for deacons and bishops! how much more an apostle! I think Paul gives 2 passages in Corinthians for the proper qualifications of an apostle, namely one that is willing to suffer!
As far as I know there are no direct teachings on this subject on SI. I think this is a great discussion topic and it would be profitable to look more into the scriptures about this idea of "modern apostles"
I feel like taking a slightly different stance on this thread. I believe what we need in the modern day apostle, more than the ability to found fellowships (which I am not belittling) is we need men and women in the church with the character of apostles as we see in the New Testament.
A modern day apostle that, whether pastorally or evangelistically focused makes a stand against the current age and, by the grace of God can call on believers in humility to "be imitators of me" (1Corinthians 4v15) Or "be imitators of me as I am also of Christ (1Cor 11v1).
In the verse before he calls people to imitate him he refers to being a father to the Corinthians, "for I have beggoten you in Christ Jesus through the Gospel". (1Cor4v14) Perhaps the apostle has a supernatural gift that combines and oversees that of pastorship and evangelism.
As Greg said, they are willing to suffer. The verses I refered to above are in the context of:
1Co 4:9-16 For I think that God has set forth us last, the apostles, as it were appointed to death; for we have become a spectacle to the world and to angels and to men. (10) We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are honorable, but we are despised. (11) Even until this present hour we both hunger and thirst and are naked and are buffeted and have no certain dwelling place. (12) And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it; (13) being defamed, we entreat. We are made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now. (14) I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. (15) For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for I have begotten you in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (16) Therefore I beseech you, be imitators of me."
A challenge to us all, in character.
Greg: He is one that has the grace of God to be able to establish churches and fellowships.
Greg: In that I mean they need to be called of God for that special work.
I think that is exactly it. Paul stresses that he was called to be an apostle. Romans 1:1; "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle , separated unto the gospel of God,”
But truly it is a high calling!
Greg: I think Paul gives 2 passages in Corinthians for the proper qualifications of an apostle, namely one that is willing to suffer!
Wow, I had never thought about the suffering an apostle must go through. But, I think all those called to the ministry must be prepared for suffering. All Christians go through suffering, but there is something about the suffering of those serving Christ in ministry.
A modern day apostle that, whether pastorally or evangelistically focused makes a stand against the current age and, by the grace of God can call on believers in humility to "be imitators of me" (1Corinthians 4v15) Or "be imitators of me as I am also of Christ (1Cor 11v1).
Perhaps the apostle has a supernatural gift that combines and oversees that of pastorship and evangelism.
Regarding what an apostolic man is to be in his character, I cannot recommend enough Art Katz's "Apostolic Foundations."
The question of whether there are modern day apostles is a great question to consider. What do the Scriptures say? Well, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that [b]there is at least one modern day apostle: Jesus Christ!
Who is the Gifted One? Is not the Son the greatest Apostle that ever has or will be?
Who was gifted with every spiritual gift available? Was it not the Son of God. What was most important to Him being an Apostle or being a Son. Who disperses the Gifts of God as He wishes?
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Who has the manifestation of the Spirit?
Every man that is saved.
If we have the Son we have all of Him, not just part of Him in pieces here and there.
If The Son is the Gifted One and the Holy Spirit is the one that manifests all that Christ is in the believer, then all the Gifts are available to every man, it is up to the Holy Spirit to use them as He Pleases, not up to man to be gifted as an apostle, for the Body of Christ are all Apostles by the Christ that is in them and able to be used anytime the Holy Spirit pleases to the building up of the Body of Christ the Church.
1 Corinthians 12:8-11 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
This will set everybody at odds with me, but here it is.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? Here it is; a resounding YES.
YES
We all have all the Gifts of Christ by the Holy Spirit and can be used anytime the Holy Spirit pleases in anyone that is saved by the Christ that is born again in Him.
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Then 1 Corinthians 13: If we had all the Gifts of the Spirit of Christ without Love we are a clanging cymbal and nothing works. Who is Love?
God is Love, Christ is Love, The Holy Spirit Makes Love the first prerequisite for dispersing a Gift. That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
We are all apostles in Christ Jesus by His birthing in us.
In Christ, an apostle of Christ by, "the Hope of Glory" of Christ in us: Phillip
Yet greater than this, son's. Then God the Father can use son's for any gift mentionsed, fulfilled by the Love of Christ, "who loved us first and gave His life for us.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Praise God: Phillip
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
I think if one is going to understand what apostolic ministry is, I think it is important to examine some Scriptures. I think this is a good first one to consider:
Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
This verse has often been misquoted and interpreted to mean that the purpose of the apostles was to write Scripture and the such. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that this was the purpose of apostolic ministry. If such was the purpose, then the first generation of apostles failed horriably. For of all the apostles named in Scripture, only Peter, Paul, John, Matthew and James wrote something that made it into the New Testament. And of these, only three were of the original tweleve!
So then, what is this verse saying? Apostolic ministry is a foundational ministry upon which the entire Church is built upon. This is not merely some once-for-all past tense phenomenon. Such is obviously included, however, if it were merely such, then Jesus Christ ministry is merely past tense as well, being that He is the corner stone of the entire building! But, we know that the ministry of Christ continues even today.
So, what exactly is this foundational ministry that apostles lay? I think Paul's words are best. Paul says, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder, I laid a foundation... For no man can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 3:10-11) And how did Paul do this? He says:
Romans 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man’s foundation;
Paul's activity as an apostle at its core centered around establishing Christ where Christ was yet named. Once the name of Christ was established somewhere, it wasn't too long before Paul was getting an itch to move on somewhere else, and preach the gospel where the gospel had yet to be preached. However, that is not to say he only sought to preach where there were no other Christians, for he did desire to evangelize in Rome and "obtain some fruit among you." (Romans 1:13)
Paul seemed to break the land-speed record when it came to this work. For in the book of Acts, you seldom see him staying at any location more than a few months before going somewhere else. Sometimes he stayed over a year at a given location, but this seemed to be the exception, not the rule. Thus, it is not shocking to see that by the time he's writing the Romans, he's already considering doing missions work beyond their region.
However, don't conceive of the apostle as being merely somebody who is here one moment and then gone the next, and only bringing the gospel to people who have never heard it before. For his foundational work is not over simply because he went out and made a few converts in a city. Being that an apostle is a foundational man, he is also concerned about the maintaining of that foundation. He is interested in seeing that the foundation he established stand the test of time. He is concerned that those who now name Christ will continue to do so. Thus, he sought to come to the Romans not only to evangelize, but further help the Christians there be established in their faith (Romans 1:11).
Thus, in the book of Acts and the epistles, we see that apostles like Paul went about also "strengthening" the individual churches (Acts 14:22, 15:41, 16:5, 18:23), and providing pastoral oversight. Not only this, but they would also appoint elders in each locale (Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5, 1 Tim 3) who would also provide pastoral oversight.
This all goes back to what was said in Ephesians 2:21-22. In strengthening established foundations, apostolic ministry exists to continue to build up and grow the local church. This is stated further in Ephesians 4:11-16, that apostolic ministry (amongst the other ministries) is for the equipping of the saints, building up the body of Christ to a mature man, and attaining unity.
So, in summary, apostolic ministry is mainly that of being who lays foundations. An apostle does this through missionary work by taking the gospel to where the gospel has never been. He also seeks to even "do the work of an evangelist" where Christ is already named. And finally, he seeks to strengthen the faith of the faithful, wherever they might be- even in a church where they never laid the original foundations e.g. Paul to the Romans.
I hope this has given you guys something to chew on.
Apostles today? What dose the Bible say?
In Eph. 4:11, “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; you see what he did. In 12, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: you see the purpose. In 13, Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: YOU SEE FOR HOW LONG. One of the key words in vs. 13 is Till or in some translations Until. Have we all come into the unity of the faith? No! When we do we will not need Apostles, Pastors Ect.
Some teach that you have to meet two qualifications two be an Apostle; Acts 1:21-22 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. If we look at the text it is not talking about the qualifications of an Apostle it is dealing with one taking the place of Judas. Acts 1:20 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Let another take his place. Who is the HIS?
I believe that there are Apostles today. I have a friend that pioneered works in Japan and works in the Philippians and they have connected more than 10 million people to his works. I consider him an Apostle. I also believe some have apostolic ministries who move in deep realms of the Spirit of God. Yet, I do not believe everyone who claims to be an Apostle is an Apostle.
Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
we need men and women in the church with the character of apostles as we see in the New Testament.
Perhaps this article is not speaking paticularly of apostles but of men of a calibur and walk with God that we don't see these days:
[b]A DIFFERENT RACE OF MEN by Greg Gordon
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13571&forum=16&1
Let's not get all 'hyped' up on the apostleship. I feel that God has called me to one, but let's not honor one above another.
Anywho, an apostle is simply a missionary. A person who starts something. I think Chip Brogden, in his study of the book of Galatians, stated that an apostle spreads Christ.
I can't remember who I listened to on SI that stated the same thing but to more in-depthness. I thought it was T-Austin Sparks but I don't think so after looking around.
Some teachers say that an apostle had to see Jesus. Which isn't biblical. Others say signs and wonders are to follow them, which I tend to agree with.
2 Corinthians 12:12
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.
Others say that an apostle is like a father because of Paul's nature towards his calling. Which is alright. I haven't seen any scripture to defend this other than Paul's nature in ministry. Like his way of doing it, he was very personal and very close to the ministry he was entrusted to.
One thing I think is clear, is that an apostle lays the foundation for the Church's walk with Christ. He brings the basics of Christianity. No apostle looks the same as another.
That's just my experience with this word and I'm still learning. Blessings.
Here is a link for a study on it. It states that you must have seen Jesus, but that's not the truth of the Word of God. The rest, after glance, looked fine. Except they say apostles have ceased
http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/spiritualgifts/ch14.htm
I haven't really found anything on SI to help you with this. Art Katz's message really didn't hit the mark for me. ;-)
lovegrace : Let's not get all 'hyped' up on the apostleship. I feel that God has called me to one, but let's not honor one above another.
This is a crucial point! We have a natural habit to see apostleship as a calling greater than a lot of other callings, when in reality we all called as part of the same Body to function in unity.
And yes, as I and other have mentioned, it takes a lot of character to be an apostle, but remember Paul encouraged people to imitate him and, regardless of whether we are called to apostleship or not, we should all be willing to suffer for Christ, and be willing to live a life worthy of the Gospel (see Philipians 1v27 I think).
Even the New Testament apostles wern't 'super-christians' as we sometimes like to see them, but we can all live in the same way, because we all have access to the grace that the apostles had.
I know we know this, but I think it's important to remind ourselves of it :)
Thanks lovegrace,
Adam.
I am looking for information on the relevancy of the gift of apostleship in this day and age.
Roniya, I'm wondering if you had some person/persons specifically in mind who you thought might have this calling today.
As I was listening to Keith Daniel's latest sermons this week the thought that he had the calling of an apostle came to my mind, I wonder if you would agree? This man's character, and the things that he has done and seen in his ministry are just astounding to me.
In Christ,
Ron
I know many people who have been sent out, but are not Apostles.
Everyone sent out = Apostle No
Everyone who has a character like an apostle = Apostle No
Every Missionary = Apostle No
Does Apostle mean the same thing today as it did when written in Scripture?
Or has it been defined differently today.
One thing I’ve noticed in today’s world if one claims to be an Apostle , people say he is full of pride. If one claim to be a Pastor it is OK ???
I know within the whole group of Apostles, there is a subset of Apostles (the 70, the 12, ect.) that were unique for their specific purposes (writing Scripture ect.).
I roofed many years and was considered to be a roofer. I have also seen those who put one or two roofs on and claimed to be a roofer; but they were not roofers.
I’d like to ask any who are Apostles; can you share with me the uniqueness of your ministry today?
Evangelist. You have said this and that isn't an apostle yet you give no scriptural backing. Brother, any opinion should be thrown in hell. Even mine. Scripture is our basis, not personal experience. I am considered to be a 'pentacostal/charasmatic' but I know the Word of God is our basis NOT personal experience, not like many of my close brothers and sisters.
There are many missionaries that fulfill the scripture *2 Corinthians 12:12
The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.*
Even if they are baptist, methodist, or presbeterian. If someone receives the gospel and their life is changed, THAT is a miracle my brother. A sign is something visable to point to God and that again would be the infiltration of the Gospel into someone's heart and their life changing experience.
You see that the scripture doesn't say healings. And even if it did. A healing of the soul is more important, for what good is there if someone has a perfectally healthy body without eternal life? None.
For me personally, I haven't been 'sent out' yet. God is taking me through training in His Word and I'm writing a book about it by His grace.
My ministry, if it really matters, I see it being a grassroots ministry. One that brings up people within the city to send them out. I'm not called to any country right now, other than America. I feel inner healing, physcially healing, foundational teaching, and revavant teaching is my calling. First to the youth then to all ages.
I also feel the need to go back to the 'old paths' listed in scripture. Where revival and love are natural within the church.
I tend to go out of the normal thinking. I'm an out of the box kind of thinking. Tradition breaker, if you want to say. But Word of God based.
Has this happened in my life? Yes, in part. But God is now working out many character issues and has done a great job. But He is also giving me a strong scriptural foundation.
Lovegrace. First of all I never claimed personal experience. Second of all I agree that opinions are of little value. When I was saying this or that about Apostles; I did not use scriptural backing, because it is a simple universal truth that only requires common sense.
Every Christian Church that believes in modern day Apostles (that I’m aware of) would agree with this simple logic. If you do not agree; then you believe: everyone sent out is an apostle, everyone that has characteristics of an apostle is an apostle, and every missionary is an apostle. Think over this, and if you still want scriptural backing I’ll give you as much as you want…Here I’ll give you one Philip the evangelist was sent out. Was he an apostle? NO! He was an evangelist!
Can SOME being sent out be an Apostle? Yes
Can SOME with the characteristics of an Apostle indeed be an Apostle? Yes
Can SOME missionaries be Apostles? Yes
Once again I’m looking for someone who can share the uniqueness of the apostolic working in their ministry today.
Brother Ron, yes, I do have someone in mind. But it wasn't brother Keith. I see him as being more of an evangelist. If we look at an apostle as one who comes in and does the foundational work, then I would say brother Keith is more of one who comes in and helps in building upon that foundation. Which I suppose could in some sense fit in with the apostle gifting…but I know that brother Keith considers himself to be an evangelist. He speaks and moves on.
KingJimmy, thank you for your excellent explanation! You said some really good things that were very helpful.
I agree with Lovegrace that the gift of apostleship is not to be above another gift. We are all servants of Christ and members of the Bride of Christ. It is amazing to study the Body and see how God has gifted different people in areas of serving.
Lovegrace, I read that article and I was wanting something that gave the other side. :-o So, if you come upon anything, please let me know.
Thanks for everyone's input. This has been very helpful...at least no one has come out that this gifting has ceased from the church!
Technically speaking, those who claim to be called by God as missionaries have absolutely no Scriptural backing for such a claim. The Bible knows nothing of somebody called to be a missionary. Never in all the New Testament is there any mention of somebody being a missionary.
However, if one does a study of the word "missionary," one will find it ultimately comes from the word "apostle." If memory serves correct, the word "missionary" is a latinized version of the greek word for apostle. Thus, grammatically and Biblically speaking, anybody claiming to be called as a missionary is technically claiming to be an apostle.
Thus, every God called missionary is actually called to be an apostle. To say otherwise is to say that not every God called apostle is called to be an apostle. Which, of course, is absurd.
This discussion is locked.
