The "Secret Rapture" Deception

MARTIN LUTHER: "nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist...For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny." Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196, 197.

JOHN CALVIN: "I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter...I deny him to be the head of the church." "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt...I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in 2 Thess 2), are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies to the Papacy." John Calvin, Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219, 220. John Calvin, Institutes.

JOHN WESLEY: "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers...He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honor...claiming the perogatvies which belong to God alone." Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p.110.

JOHN WYCLIF: "Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist? Hence in the seventh chapter of Daniel, the Antichrist is forcefully described by a horn arising in the time of the 4th kingdom. For it grew from [among] our powerful ones, more horrible, more cruel, and more greedy, because by reckoning the pagans and our Christians by name, a lesser [greater?] struggle for the temporals is not recorded in any preceding time...and the horn has arisen from the ten horns, having eyes and a mouth speaking great things against the Lofty One, and wearing out the saints of the Most High, and thinking that he is able to change times and laws." (Daniel 7:8, 25 quoted)..."For so our clergy foresee the lord pope, as it is said of the eighth blaspheming little head." Translated from Wyclif's De Veritate Sacrae Scripturae, Vol. 3, pp. 262, 263.

There are similar statements by William Tyndale, King James, John Knox, Phillip Melanchthon and Huldreich Zwingli.

After, these men focused the fulfillment of Scripture upon the Papacy, the church commissioned a priest, named, Rivera, to come up with another interpretation of prophecy. He invented the "Secret Rapture" theory, which, does not appear in Scripture. It was picked up by Darby, and, later, by Scofield, who incorporated it into his Bible notes. In the late '60s, Scofield's Bible was very popular with Evangelicals. They ran with it.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; IN THE WHICH the heavens shall pass away with a GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10. (Compare this verse with the 7th plague in Revelation 16:17-21.)

As we can see from this verse, His coming is, neither, secret nor silent, but, the end of the world, as we know it.

What did Jesus prophesy in Matthew 24, concerning His coming?

"For THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION,SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NOR EVER SHALL BE...Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and THEN shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:21-35.

Jesus said, that, He was coming AFTER the Great Tribulation. Is that so scary? The seven plagues mimic the ten in Egypt. Were God's people kept from His wrath? Were Noah and his family kept safe during the flood? Yes. He is able to keep us through tribulation.

So, why did the New Testament saints look for His coming? They were being persecuted by Pagan Rome, which, persecuted Jesus. In the fifth century, the Roman Emperors gave their power, seat and great authority (Rev 13:2) to the Bishop of Rome. Papal Rome tortured and murdered Christians. One final time, the "Harlot and her daughters" - the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system - Revelation 17) will persecute the remnant church.

It's. always, been about Rome.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Only God can make a pre-tribulationists by His Grace.

The war begins.

In Christ: Phillip

I think it is interesting how the men of old whom we would quickly quote to defend "justification", "sanctification", and other key doctrinal beliefs are thrown out the window for a relatively new teaching. Of course that being the pre-trib view, or futrist view.
We have gone through this before, and perhaps the other threads could be searched for.
Personally I lean post-trib, but this is one thing we must all be concerned with when thinking about being "caught up".
[b]"Without holiness no man shall see Him"[/b]
So does your view create holiness in your life?if not it is vanity.

We can all have our own opinions, but, there is no authority in them.

There is, only, one authority - the Word of God.

Does anyone think they have a better interpretation then Jesus?

Jesus said, "...AFTER the tribulation...shall appear the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven..."

Are we numbered with the apostate Catholic/Protestant religious system, which has substituted her traditions for God's holy Word?

Who do we think we are?

God's Holy Word says we are born again and in Christ and Christ is in us. Christ will not go through the tribulation in the believer. He already did that for us.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

If we are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, the only thing left is to take us home to His Father's House, as a Husband does in Jewish tradition. We are already His Bride, that is married to Him. We have our lamps trimmed and the Oil of the Holy Spirit to go Home with our Husband to the Fathers House. Those that are left with untrimmed lamps and no Oil will stay on earth to be saved in the tribulation.

We don't need a sign of the Son of Man we have at this time already heard His Shout Personally.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We already there, just waiting for the shout.

2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Where are we? Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Where are we going? John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Who is the way? John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

See you in the Fathers House in Heavenly Places being prepared for us by Jesus Christ Himself.

In Him: Phillip

Only God is Holy. This is truth about Jesus Christ also. No man can be Holy unless he has the Holy One Born Again in him. Holiness is not what man does but what God has done in Christ Jesus. We are Holy Because He is Holy.

1 Peter 1:14-16 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

In Christ's Holiness: Phillip

Christinyou wrote:
If we are already seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, the only thing left is to take us home to His Father's House, as a Husband does in Jewish tradition. We are already His Bride, that is married to Him. We have our lamps trimmed and the Oil of the Holy Spirit to go Home with our Husband to the Fathers House. Those that are left with untrimmed lamps and no Oil will stay on earth to be saved in the tribulation.

I am unaware of one place that says that we are already married to God. A [b]bride[/b] is one [b]in the process of being[/b] married, but a [b]wife[/b] is one that [b]is[/b] married. Perhaps you know of one, that cannot be disputed Phillip.

Something that has occurred to me, while considering one of the Hollywood style movies that depict a "post rapture" world with "tribulation saints" fighting against the Antichrist and his forces. In the movie that I think of, Satan's minions were beings with supernatural powers, walking through walls and working other "miracles", with the Antichrist being the world leader that they answered to.

In contrast, David Pawson (one who takes a more "classical futurist" viewpoint, where the rapture occurs "post-trib/pre-millennium") teaches that the reason why there are two descriptions of Christ's return (one secret, one open) is that there will be two viewpoints of the same event:

One viewpoint will be by those who eagerly anticipate Christ's return and, like Daniel, perceive that events are presently transpiring as described in prophetic writings. These will realise that Christ is returning as we comes.

The other will be surprised by his return, being unprepared due to their ignorance of God's prophetic signs, that are clearly presented in scripture. These will most likely be also unprepared for his return, having not kept their "lamps full" as the "foolish virgins" did.

Thessalonians says that we will "meet him in the clouds". Acts says that he will return in like manner that he left. Jesus said that his return shall be as the lightning strike that lights up the whole sky. He also indicated that we will rule nations, if we have been faithful with "worldly mammon". Jude indicated that he will return with thousands of "his saints". Revelation says that he will return to rule for a millennial rule, prior to the final defeat of the "kings of this world" and even Satan himself. It also says that his martyrs and those that have not "received the mark" (whatever that is/was/will be) will rule with him.

Considering all these things, consider this hypothetical scenario, Christ returns to the Mount of Olives, with all his saints being raptured to meet him in the air, as he descends. The dead, in Christ rise first, being glorified with incorruptible bodies, and those who remain will be changed, and follow them. For some, this will be expected, for others this will be a surprise, but everyone will see what has happened, whether they interpret it correctly or not. Christ goes on to reign from Jerusalem, fulfilling the prophecy that the "law will go out from Zion", and his glorified saints will be as "bureaucrats" enforcing his will, on his behalf. Censorship, morality and righteousness will be a matter of law, but there will remain some who are not "true believers", who will resent such a "violation of their civil rights" from such a "dictator".

Now consider this, there will be some who will be expecting a "secret rapture" prior to this "millennial reign" (if they expect the latter at all). What if these will be left behind (had my hypothesis above been true). Consider that they hear of one who is ruling in Jerusalem, and has enforced a strict legal system, and has claimed absolute global control. Those who enforce his laws, have supernatural powers and are enforcing peace, and allegiance to this world leader. I wonder if these "tribulation saints" will think that Jesus is actually the Antichrist? Perhaps they will be the ones who will gather together, rallying the "kings of the world" to support their "crusade".

The way I figure it, if the rapture were pre-trib, then either I'll go up, or I'll be left behind, and will be as the early church saints were with Nero, submitting themselves to him, while refusing to bow down to him. However, if a post-trib rapture occurred the way I claimed earlier, then if I am raptured, then case closed, for Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "...then we shall know, even as we are known.." Either way, believing what I belive (which is my earlier hypothesis), I will be safe, because the only thing that will spare me is trusting in the Lord, who will save me, regardless.

In light of all this, I read Acts 19 today, and was struck with something, Paul spoke in Ephesus for two years, regarding the kingdom, working miracles, and all Asia Minor heard the message. When the "seven sons of Sceva" were stripped and beaten, all Ephesus seemed to turn to God, in fear, burning their occult literature. Paul sent his companions on to Macedonia, and those who profited from "Dianna worship" stirred up the whole city to chant "Great is Dianna of Ephesus".

It is entirely possible for the inhabitants of Earth to yield to Christ's Millennial reign, and then revolt, when one comes promising to overthrow the One who will not tolerate their excuses from immorality. My prayer is that I will not be amongst them. May that be yours also.

In our presumption and arrogance, we can pontificate all we want.

Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, NOR EVER SHALL BE...immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...and THEN...shall they see the sign of the Son of man coming in the clouds..."Matthew 24. (Does it matter to us, what He said?)

Jesus disappeared into clouds, and will return the same way. If He is to stay here during the milennium, why rapture the saints?

I suggest, that, the saints spend the thousand years with Him and descend with Him in the New Jerusalem, when the milennium is over.

I agree with Greg. I'm still praying on a more solid refutement in the Word to take a stand against 'secret rapture/pre-trib'.

Now. I have two comments that I know from the word of God.

Revelation 3:10 - Gracealone, I know this scripture is used a lot for the pre-tribers but let me show you the greek.

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&version=KJV#10]Rev. 3:10 in greek[/url]

Now, lets look at the word [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&strongs=5083&page=]keep[/url] in the greek because that's what the pre-tribers use to say 'we will be removed'.

Now, this greek word is in the KJV 75 times. Here are a few examples of 'keep'.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep[/b] the commandments.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] [b]observe[/b] and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast [b]kept[/b] the good wine until now.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man [b]keep[/b] my saying , he shall never see death.

This is the defination of this word 'keep'.

Def. - to attend to carefully, [b]take care of[/b]
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to [b]undergo[/b] something

Let's just take Matthew 19:17 - And he(Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep[/b] the commandments.

Was Jesus saying. "If thou wilt enter into life, remove the commandments."? Uh...no. Therefore, this scripture (Rev. 3:10) is taken completly out of context and doesn't aid to the discussion of pre-triber but instead aids to Christ PROTECTING His church in the trib.

We will be in the tribulation but this is what Jesus says.

John 16:33
33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Then, shall we be removed, look at Christ's prayer.

John 17:15
15"I do [b]not[/b] ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Guess what that 'keep' word. Ha, it's the SAME greek word in Rev. 3:10.

May God give revelation to the saints that are seeking the Truth.

God's Holy Word says we are born again and in Christ and Christ is in us. Christ will not go through the tribulation in the believer. He already did that for us.

Philip,

Can I ask you a question about the above statement? You say that you don't believe Jesus will go through the trib..........is it then your belief then that NO ONE will come to salvation through the tribulation?

See, for me, this is one of the biggest issues which completely discounts the idea of pre-trib rapture, besides the multitudes of scriptures which clearly discount for me.

NOONE can be saved without being born again. When someone is born again, Christ dwells within them. It seems to me that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is seriously flawed in understanding the nature of salvation and that when Paul spoke I Thess. 5:9-10 it pertains to ALL believers of ALL time, not just those believers who have been born prior to the very last days.

Some have been born.........some are still in the "womb".......but all that have been given to Jesus by the Father WILL come to Him (Jn 6) and He will raise them up ON THE LAST DAY. All the Father has given Jesus are NOT appointed to WRATH (I Thess. 5:9-10).

I wanted to post one more scripture for consideration:

II Thess. 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Does it appear in this passage that we will meet our Lord BEFORE the judgment on wicked man or does it appear that Paul is teaching the saints to be encouraged in their suffering by the wicked.........the Lord IS coming with His holy angels----in flaming fire to exact vengeance on those who trouble the saints and disobey the Lord. It also speaks of THIS being the time when Jesus will be glorified in His saints.

[i]Moderator note: Copied the following from a posting by the same name and pasted it here, the other duplicate post will be removed. Please, when responding to an ongoing discussion, use the "Reply" button rather than starting a new post by the same name. Thanks [/i]

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Poster Thread
sscr01
Not too shy to talk

Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 26

I suggest, that, He comes, raptures the church, takes us up with Him, after 1,000 years, we return in the New Jerusalem. The wicked are revived, and attack the city. They are defeated.

Then...the judgement.

2006/12/2 8:24

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place......For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

Christians do go thru trials and tribulation and have been since the first century, but what Jesus called the, "great tribulation" is a seven year period spelled out in Daniel ch.9.
Seventy weeks (or seventy seven year periods) 490 years, are issued to Daniel's people(Jews), and Daniel's holy city(Jerusalem) v24-27.
This 490 year period began with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which took place on March 14th, 445BC(Nehemiah 2:4-8).
Daniel states that after 483 years Messiah will present himself as King. Jesus fulfilled this when he rode a donkey into Jerusalem exactly 483 years later to the day, on April 6th, 32AD.
But then Daniel states that this time period will be stopped because the Messiah will be killed(but not for himself)v26.
At this time God stops dealing with the Jews and starts dealing with, "The Church". This is the time frame we are in today, The Church Age. It has lasted for almost 2000 years(since Acts chapter 2). 69 weeks (or 483 years) is over, but there is one week(or 7 years) left. The 70th week is a 7 year period that Jesus called," the great tribulation". It is a period of time when God starts dealing with the Jews again. The church was not on this earth during the first 69 weeks and the church will not be on this earth during the 70th week. The church must be removed before the 7 years of tribulation can begin. Jesus will come back for his bride, there will be people saved during the tribulation, but they will not be part of the church(or the bride of Christ), they will be tribulation saints.

The starting point for the 2300-day and 490-year prophecies in Daniel, began with the Persian King Artaxerxes authorizing God's people (who were captive in Medo-Persia) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. The decree in Ezra 7 was implemented in the Autumn. Artaxerxes began his reign in 464 B.C. The angel said that 69 prophetic weeks, or 483 literal years (69 x 7 = 483) added to 457 B.C. would reach Messiah (Jesus) in Daniel 7:25. 483 years from the fall of 457 B.C., reaches the fall of A.D. 27.

The word "Messiah" means "anointed." (John 1:41, margin). Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38) at his baptism (Luke 3:21,22). His anointing took place in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1), which was A.D. 27. Jesus began to preach that the time was fulfilled (the 483 years which were to reach to the Messiah). He confirmed the prophecy (Mark 1:14, 15; Galatians 4:4). So, Jesus, actually, began His ministry by relating the 2300-day prophecy.

Jesus was "cut-off" or crucified "in the midst of the week," which is 3 1/2 years after His anointing. In verse 26 the Gospel is revealed: "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut-off, but not for Himself." For us!

This passage is referring to the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Jesus was cut-off, then, the Gospel continued to go to the Jews, for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

This passage is referring to the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Jesus was cut-off, then, the Gospel continued to go to the Jews, for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

Have to agree with ya here. History is hard to refute, and this is historically proven.
As of late I have been looking into the "historical" view of prophecy and of the views that are around this one seems to make the most sense.

There were three authorizations in Ezra to return to Jerusalem, but they were all decrees to rebuild the Temple only. Daniel 9:25 is very clear that the 70 weeks start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, it says the street shall be built and the wall. The only decree to rebuild the walls and the city was issued by Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2, on March 14th, 445BC.
Daniel 9:25 also says that,"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the King...". It does not say to reach Messiah. The word for "King" is Nagid it always means the "King of the Jews". There is only one day in history when Jesus allowed himself to be worshipped as the King. The day he presented himself to Jerusalem, riding in through the east gate on a donkey, exactly 173,880 days (483 years) after the decree given in Nehemiah 2.
Tiberius Caesar took office in 15 AD, his 15th year in office would have been 29 AD.
v26 says that Jesus was cut off, after threescore and two weeks(62 weeks), that comes after the first seven V25, which is a total of 69 weeks. It doesn't say Jesus was cut off " in the midst of the week".
The 70th week has not taken place yet.
v24- Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,(to do what?)
1. to finish the transgression.
We still have transgression.
2. to make an end of sins.
We still have a lot of sin.
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
I'll give you this one because Jesus accomplished this on the cross.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Everlasting righteousness has not been brought in that I can see.
5. to seal up the vision and prophesy, and to annoint the most holy place.
The most holy place will only be annointed when Jesus takes his rightful place on his throne in Jerusalem. Right now he is sitting on his father's right hand.
The last 7 year period has not taken place yet or all these things would be a reality. The book of Revelation details these 7 years from Chapters 6- 19. At the end of chapter 19 it becomes obvious that these details are a reality and the world is much different from the way it is today.

I see where you are coming from on the time line, I just think it's a little off. None of these details really effect the rapture though, either way Jesus is still coming back for the church. We still have to be with him in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb, and then return to earth with him. If the rapture is Post-trib, that makes the marriage supper a sack lunch.

"unto Messiah," means "unto Messiah."

The word in Daniel in the Hebrew, is "Messiah," - "Mashiyah; anointed; spec. the Messiah, not, Antichrist.

As the Encyclopedias begin the reign of Tiberius in A.D. 14, some scholars question the fixed date, as the Emperors' reigns overlapped one another.

457 B.C - Decree
AD 27 - Baptism
AD 31 - Crucifixion ("cut-off")
AD 34 - Stephen stoned

It says in Daniel 9, that, "Messiah" would be "cut-off" that is a Hebrew expression for death. After Jesus'31/2 year ministry ended, He confirmed the covenant, by sending His disciples to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5,6) because the chosen people, still, had 31/2 years remaining of their 490 year opportunity.

Also, it is not consistent in prophecy, to separate the last week and thrust it down into the end of time. Where is the precedent?

Jesus returns, to collect us, we go to Heaven for 1,000 years, and return in the New Jerusalem - then, He will reign upon the earth in His Kingdom.
We are with Him 1,000 years - that, is no "sack lunch."

By the way, the Apostle Paul makes it plain - we are, now, His temple upon the earth. 2 Cor 6:16. That is why the Reformers. pointed to the Papacy as, the "Son of Perdition," that, sits in God's temple (His church) as if he were God.

Jesus rules and reigns in His temple - in us!

We still have to be with him in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb, and then return to earth with him. If the rapture is Post-trib, that makes the marriage supper a sack lunch.

ingleb,

Do you believe that there will be noone born again after a rapture?

Scripture clearly teaches that ALL who are born again are "in Christ"........being "in Christ" makes one part of His Body/The Church (Eph. 1:22-23). How is it that you believe the entire church is in heaven during the days preceeding His 2nd Glorious return?