Hi
Been really blessed by Stephen Kuang but he is replacement theology in Rev 12
Does anyone here know of any messianic audio teachers who are not?
Have to listen for a while to find out.
thanks for replying
and may we all be studying to be approved
JJ4 8-)
Art Katz comes to mind. You might enjoy his website. http://www.benisrael.org/
Keith Daniel's sermon on the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13793]Second Coming of Christ
I'm sure there's more...those are just the ones who came to mind. :-)
Shalom,
Joy
Thanks Roniya!
Enjoying Walvoord's Prophecy Handbook
JJ
Well , listened to Keith Daniels , little too histronic for me- powerfull preacher but seems to be some discrepancy regarding the rapture and the 2nd coming according to the Prophecy Handbook..
Wish I had such fervor though! Good preacher.
JJ
Well , just had to add that superb teacher Lenard Ravenhill to my 'leary' list as he showed himself 'tongue in cheek anti-semetic' with low ball comments in a good teaching video- shoot, how discouraging from such an eminent brother.
Perhaps he has changed but it sure is bad seed to be snide against the Abrahamic root we wild olives have been grafted into.
jj
Hi JJ,
if you do a search the forums you will find a vast base of material concerning the replaced theology. Have you ever considered fulfilled theology?
Not sure if you are having me here Zeke - but yes, I love fullfilled theology and the unfullfilled is something to look fwd to.
However replacement theology is an insult to our Lord of Zion but an easy short cut for warm fuzzy preachers to substitute the 'Church' wherever Israel is mentioned so they are not troubled with a literal inerrant Word of God .
Worse still, the sheep choke it down :)
This is the lounge so I trust the Mods will not be too picky of my views which I think are healthy and Biblical.
Yrs,
jj
Not to have you on, what do you mean?
JohnJames4 wrote:
Not sure if you are having me here Zeke
Sorry, I took what you said the totally the wrong way. What is you understanding of Fullfilled theology.- but yes, I love fullfilled theology and the unfullfilled is something to look fwd to.
Is that what it is? Truth sometimes is matter of where you sit, so in other words, perspective. If you are willing to start a thread on this topic explaining what makes you think that way, I'm willing to talk about it.
However replacement theology is an insult to our Lord of Zion but an easy short cut for warm fuzzy preachers to substitute the 'Church' wherever Israel is mentioned so they are not troubled with a literal inerrant Word of God .
An intersting concept Replacement theology v irreplaceable theology
Those born into the house of Israel physiclly have no choice in being an Israelite. Those gentiles grafted in through the Holy Spirit, now part of the body of Christ, having been made to drink of the One Spirit into which they are baptized and now bear the name of Israels' husband, Christ. Those Israelites outside of Christ by choice, once having heard and clearly understood the Gospel and remain outside of christ are WITHOUT EXCUSE!
Hi Paddy!
Most Jewish folks dont know what Christ has done for them- there are scales over their eyes that we must pray be removed that they might see our Savior and their Messiah.They neither have heard nor understood but their loss is our gain.And perhaps our walk will make them jeulous that they may see the Lord.
As the scriptures show- they will some day know Him after great tribulation and the whole world will worship our Lord in Jerusalem in the Millennium PSL. So we should pray for the Peace of Jerusalem Gen 12:3
I just like teachers and preachers with that Messianic knowledge .
On another note- have you ever read 'the Deer's call' by St Patrick? a blessing from 400 ad.
So long for now and may the wind be at your back but may the road not raise up to meet you as the falling drunk experienced it:)
jj
Hi Zeke!
This says it better than I:
Question: "What is replacement theology?"
Answer: Replacement Theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology / Covenant Theology), or the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).
Replacement Theology teaches that the Church is the replacement for Israel, and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian Church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are "spiritualized" or “allegorized” into promises of God's blessing for the Church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries, and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?
The view that Israel and the Church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. In this view, the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the Church is an entirely new creation, that came into being on the Day of Pentecost, and will continue until it is translated to Heaven at the Rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The Church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been set aside in God's program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion.
After the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel to the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the Great Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the Great Tribulation for the Second Coming of the Messiah. Now, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the Tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the Tribulation will be saved and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with the capital as Jerusalem. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King - Jesus Christ. The Church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).
Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a Premillennial / Dispensational understanding ..snip
http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html
yrs
jj
Art's MP3s are good, I also need clarity on covanant theology vs Dispensational
I love HIS ways
If you two would like jj, Zeke, send me your emails, so I can send you a couple Jewish gospel songs by Marty Goetz, The LORD uses him mightily.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Eze 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
Eze 36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
Eze 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
Eze 36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be built.
Eze 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
Eze 36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
Eze 36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
Eze 36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
Eze 36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
........................
I’m far from having the opinions of replacement theology, but as I read these verses prophesied to Israel, they speak to me as a gentile. Just as much of the old testament has types of many different sort, I see verses like these having a dual prophesy. As I was brought to Christ, I have been brought back to the land. I’ve had clean water sprinkled on me and been cleaned from all my filthiness, the spirit has been put in me. A stony heart has been removed from me. The desolate places of my life from being absent from the Lord are now a watered garden. It's now a fruitful land. God has taken ruin out of my life and turned it around for his glory. To me these verses speak of a person coming to Christ or a backslider and prodigal returning to the Lord just as much as the literal prophesy that it is towards Israel.
It’s my opinion that to take verses like the above and only apply them to Israel, and not to the church also, is just as much error as thinking they only apply to the church and not Israel. It is also my opinion that the whole written word of God is for me for today though I might not know how it is applying to me at the time. If I can read the written word with the understanding that God is speaking to me through the written word as I read it, even though it might not make sense at the time to me, that I can have revelation that only comes from seeking the answer to what God is now saying to me through that word that I’m reading. For me to take verses like the above and think that they are only for Israel and not the church too, would cause me to miss much of God’s revelation.
Is that what it is? Truth sometimes is matter of where you sit, so in other words, perspective.
Ah, well said ZekeO,
Perhaps what might be difficult with this JJ is that the distinctions are often blurred, seems you are of a mind to setup a theological construct first and then fit those you hear under and into this paradigm. Not that there may not be some warrant in doing so, I just wonder if this is not a bit 'all conclusive' when so many other factors have not yet been considered.
Well , just had to add that superb teacher Lenard Ravenhill to my 'leary' list as he showed himself 'tongue in cheek anti-semetic' with low ball comments in a good teaching video- shoot, how discouraging from such an eminent brother.
Perhaps he has changed but it sure is bad seed to be snide against the Abrahamic root we wild olives have been grafted into.
Len's sense of irony and humor may be subject to a lot of misunderstanding, especially if it is taken in isolation, hard to know with this mention being vague, wondering at the context.
For your consideration, a lengthy, but challenging and well expressed series you might enjoy;
Actually, this isn't even what I was looking for, had all but forgotten this one until it came up in my search for;
If you jump down a bit into this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9605&forum=35#73336]Jesuits
Otherwise, all the linking and cross linking alone ought to give you hours of enjoyment, happy trails! :-)
Hi,
I think one should highly read and listen to what Art Katz has to say regarding the mystery of Israel and the Church. He entirely avoids the errors of replacement theology, and at the same times avoids the errors of dispensationalism.
To summarize, Katz teaches that God has a plan for Israel, and that is that they shall inherit the land God has destined for them, and bring about for all of Israel everlasting salvation. Unlike dispensationalism, Katz teaches that the church doesn't merely have a seperate but parallel destiny i.e. Gentiles getting into heaven. Rather, the church is a newly created agency that exists for the purpose of provoking Israel unto jealousy. It's fulfillment is in Israel's fulfillment. This is in contrast to dispensationalism which sees the church as some sort of end-in-itself. Rather, the church's end is found in provoking Israel to jealousy.
Therefore, since the church is an agency of Israel and for Israel (part of the common-wealth of Israel itself as a nation), there will be no secret snatching away of believers known as the pre-tribulation rapture. For such betrays God's purpose for Israel and for the church. The church exists to provoke Israel to jealousy, and Israel exists so that through it all the nations of the earth might be blessed, for out of Zion the law shall go forth, and all the nations of the world will bring their glory into it, and beat their swords into plowshears and spears into pruning hooks, and never again shall the nations learn war.
Rather than a pre-tribulation rapture, the church will go through the tribulation period in which God through his redemptive judgments will accomplish His end with Israel. For the anti-christ will persecute the woman (Israel) and she will flee into the wilderness (the nations) where she will be nutured (by the church). It will be the time of Jacob's trouble, but it is there in the wilderness that apostate Israel will find salvation (through the church which provokes her unto jealousy), and then when the redeemer comes to Zion they shall return with everlasting joy upon their heads (at the second coming).
This, to the best of my understanding is Art Katz's theology regarding the mystery of Israel and the church. In my opinion, it is absolutely outstanding, and I endorse it wholeheartedly. I've yet to see a theology more clear and precise regarding Israel and the church. It avoids the allegorical pitfalls of replacement theology and the overly rigid and short-sighted pitfalls of dispensationalism.
Most Jewish folks dont know what Christ has done for them- there are scales over their eyes that we must pray be removed that they might see our Savior and their Messiah.
This passage makes it very clear how the veil is to be removed; they must turn to Christ. The removal of the veil is then automatic.
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