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Hello to all,

In this thread I am going to share some of my beliefs. Before going any further I want you to know the purpose for this. The beliefs I am about to share are very extreme and go completely against the grain of what most of you believe and hold dear, however let me assure you that I am in no way writing these to try to convince anyone of my beliefs or to stir up debate. The only reason I dare to express the beliefs in such a place is to see if by chance any of you know of someone or have ever encountered someone with similar beliefs. I currently know of no one (apart from my wife) who posses these beliefs, it is my hope that just maybe someone out there has encountered someone else with these “crazy” beliefs and that they would be kind enough to tell me a little bit about them.

As the moderators of this forum read this post, it is likely that they will consider it wise to remove my “Keep the Fire Burning” post from this forum. I am in no way seeking this, however I want them to know that I will not be offended if they choose to do so. With that said, I do sincerely and humbly request that they be kind enough to let this post remain until is dwindles far down the list (but of course that is also up to their discretion).

Please know that I have no desire to enter in to any debate regarding what I am about to share. Please know that I have no desire to convince others to hold to these beliefs. I also want you to know that I am in no way writing this to condemn or rebuke others who do not hold to these beliefs. Please trust that my only goal is to simply see if anyone has ever encountered someone else with similar beliefs.

While you may feel it is your duty to show me the error of my ways, let me assure you that many of others have already tried. I have spent many hours in debate with others who want to save me from my corruption. The only thing that has come from these debates is a whole lot of wasted time for both parties. I did not come to these beliefs overnight. They are solid and written on my heart. I say none of this to be “haughty,” I only say it to save you time if you feel the need to correct me.

Please note, that while the following list of beliefs is fairly brief, I have a full writing that explains in detail (with much scripture included) how I came to these beliefs. The full writing is available at www.geocities.com/thescatteredsaint/letter This is a very long writing (60 typed pages) that will require 2-3 hours to read. When we transferred it to the web page, it lost all page numbers. If you choose to read this, the best way to do so would be to copy it and transfer it to your own document so that you can mark where you stopped reading. It is in two parts. Most of part one consist of material I wrote for a “Keep the Fire Burning” update letter. Part two on the other hand was not included in the update letter. As I said, it is a long writing, however, it will make the complete case for all that I am about to write.

Once again – I am seeking nothing, except your input as to whether or not you have ever encountered someone with these beliefs. Here goes...

When I started on this journey three and a half years ago, I was on full time staff as “Children’s Pastor” at a larger Assembly of God “church.” At the time I was convinced that the “church” as it existed on the earth today was an institution that was controlled by God. Though I believed that it needed some serious work, I had no doubts that the institution in whole belonged to God. However, three and a half years later, with what I consider to be much revelation from the Lord, I now believe the following...

I believe the visible “church” as it exist on the earth today – both Catholic and Protestant denominations – and all that comes from it (books, sermons, media, etc.) is an institution that is run by a spirit of Satan referred to in scripture as the “beast”.

I believe that visible church system and the people who make it up are the “Great Harlot of Babylon.”

I do not believe that this is a recent development, instead, I believe that this “Harlot institution” arose shortly after the physical destruction of Jerusalem (approx. 70 AD).

I believe that God allowed the devil to create this institution and the false truth that it proclaims in order to sift out the chaff from his kingdom. I believe that those who have sincere faith in God and his Son will come to discover what this institution truly is an will remove themselves from it. I also believe that those who do not have true faith (devotion and trust) towards God and his Son, will be devoured by this institution and the lies it proclaims.

I believe that the true saints of God (or the true Church) who know this “secret” about the false church are currently scattered throughout the earth. These saints are alone (except for their own wives and children) and void of fellowship with others who know this truth. Though they strongly desire to meet other such saints, at this point in time they are kept by God (for purposes according to his wisdom) from encountering such saints.

While I could probably add a few more details of what I believe, I believe that this will be enough to ring a bell as to whether or not you have ever encountered anyone who has similar beliefs. If you have ever encounter someone with similar beliefs, would you please be kind enough to tell me about them. In addition to this, would you also be kind enough to share with me any other forums that you are aware of that have high traffic in which I could send out this search message. You can do all of this by personal message (pm) or by email if you like.

I am not looking for people who have simply had a bad experience at the “church” and are now bitter. I am not looking for people who have created a doctrine of convenience simply because they are mad at the institution. Instead, the people I am looking for will not be bitter. They will most likely be happy people who simply don’t attend the visible church because they do not believe that it is God’s institution. These people will be people who are probably looked down on by the religious community, while at the same time they will be well thought of by the non-religious community. They will have pleasant lives; however, they most likely will not take part in many of the duties that most religious people feel the need to do. These are the people I am looking for. Can anyone help me?
Of course, if what I said about God keeping us apart is true, then all these efforts are in vain. I only write with the hope that just maybe God would now show us mercy and bring us together.

I realize that with this posting, I have now left the ranks of those who are well thought of, and have joined the ranks of those considered crazy. I will gladly forfeit this position in exchange for even the slightest chance of encountering someone else who is considered crazy.

If this post is considered offensive, I apologize. I assure you that I have no desire to offend anyone. It’s just that this is the only way I really know to make such a search for others as myself. I hope you with tolerate this post. Thanks for not turning this in to debate, and thanks for any information you may give me.

Sincerely,

PJ

Hi everyone.

PJ, I have heard teachings over the radio which seem very similar to what you have expressed here.

From what I know of them, I find somewhat of an historical counterpart to this in the Essens. As I understand it, they had seperated themselves completely from the religous practices and Temple worship, believing them to be corrupted, and were living a communal life out in the Judean wilderness.

I've sometimes wondered if they missed the Messiah or recieved Him, since there doesn't appear to be any refrence to them in the scripture. Who knows. But, I think it is possible they might have rejected Him, as this is what He told the multitudes and His disciples at the time, concerning the leaders of the religous system that was in place

[b][color=660033]The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033]but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.[/color][/b]

Even though right after this He pronounced the many woes upon them, nevertheless He said of them

[i][b]...they sit in Moses' seat[/b][/i]

and

[i][b]...whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do[/b][/i]

Chris

Slav,

Regarding God’s purpose, it would take a long time to fully explain. However, to be brief, his purpose for separating the saints is partial punishment and partial testing.

If I am getting you correctly, I believe the you are wondering if I am by chance willingly rebelling against God by trying to locate others saints, when I know that it is his purpose to have us scattered. To answer that I can give a solid no. I don’t write in attempt to rebel against God’s purpose to keep us scattered. As I write, it is not from rebellion, but instead from hope. As I write, I write with hope that this season of separation is coming to and end. I can assure you that if God were to clearly tell me to not make any such attempt to find others, then I would clearly obey. But as it is, I know that the only way I will cross paths with one such as this is by his will alone. I could place a bill board on every corner in the world, and yet not meat one such as myself simply because God would prevent it. If I ever do cross paths with one I consider a brother, it will not be an accident, but instead it will be completely ordained by God. As it is, I suspect that the saints will not cross paths until Christ sends his angels to gather us from the four corners of the earth. But until that day come, unless the Lord tells me otherwise, I will always hope and make every attempt to locate one of my fellow brothers. This hope of locating one of my fellow brothers is one of the few things that make this time of separation bearable. As I write, I can’t help but hope that just maybe there is one such as myself sitting on the other side of a computer bursting with joy as they read these words. So far, all hope and attempts to locate others has been in vain, but I will keep hoping until the end.

PJ

To Chris,

Thanks for the info. The people I am looking for most likely will not be apart of any organized movements. However, I’m still interested in hearing about other teachings that sound similar, unless the teacher is blatantly bitter vs. concerned.

Thanks,
PJ

Slav,

I believe that much of what you are asking can be answered by reading my writing that I gave the link to. Yes, I know it is long. If you will take time to read that writing, then I will take time to answer any sincere questions you still have for me.

Concerning your verses regarding the fellowship of the saints, I believe that these were written during the time that the church was under God's protection from the devil. I explain this in my writing. I am not trying to draw an audience to this writing, I am only trying to avoid having to make long explanations that I have already made. To try to give brief answers to your question would only lead to more questions. Please read the writing and then ask what questions you still have.

Sincerly,

Jason

Jason,

Consider that different people think that the word Babylon means different things. Just like many people have thought and accused many different men to be the person Anti-Christ. The thing is you and they can't prove any of your thoughts and their thoughts through using the bible, at least if your using the bible in an honest and fair way and not picking out only scriptures that fit into your or their theories.

Now if the scripture is thrown out a person can come to about any conclusion, but when the whole written Word of God is used things get narrowed down quite a bit. One of the scriptures that I think of with this subject is this:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

To me this means that if when some idea of revelation comes to my mind, I need to look for leaders, past or present that have the same revelation. Every place I might look for the same revelation might not speak the same revelation, but someone should if I look very far. When I can't find any, I take it that my idea is wrong and needs to be rejected.

Certain scriptures puzzle me sometimes. At these times I go to a wide assortment of commentaries, past and present, to find out if my interpretation is private or not. Even if I find someone who thinks something the way I do, it doesn't necessarily make the idea right either but, at least then I'm not walking in a private interpretation. One place in the written Word speaks of men walking in the imagination of their own hearts. I don't want to be a man like that.

I personally do not have a high esteem for the organized church in general. I think that over half of the attenders are not Christians and that would be a very conservative figure to my mind. However, I do know that there are churches that have the presence of God in them and there are genuine Christians who attend different local churches where they live. It is not easy to find churches like this in many places.

I've long given up the idea that a church or even an individual has to have all the same ideas that I have. If I'm so proud that I can't fellowship with someone just because he or she doesn't think exactly the way I do on everything, what kind of man am I? At this place of the heart, I better repent.

If this sounds harsh or accusing to you it is not intended to be. I do think that you are very wrong about your ideas though.

grace, mercy, and peace
GaryE

Slav,

First, let it be known that I have no intention of trying to defend what I believe. While I will do my best to answer sincere questions regarding why I believe something or how I reached these conclusion, I will not spend time trying to defend them. I know how I reached my conclusions, and I assure it is was not overnight, or because of a desire to invent a doctrine that would make me seem crazy and turn my whole life upside down (yes many think I've gone crazy. Many think I'm an arrogant, unteachable man. Yes, my entire life has now been turned upside down). No. I came to believe what I believe through a process that has left we with complete confidence that I speak and know the truth. Yes, I realize that if I am wrong, then I will certainly be in big, big trouble on the day judgment. However, this is not a fear that plagues me. I feel with all certainty that it was the Great God of the Universe that led me down this path. I believe that he will lead all his faithful children down the same path.

No, I will not defend what I believe, however, I would like to defend my intentions for posting that which I posted. I assure you that I did not post this to try to convince anyone that what I believe is correct. Nor did I post to try to make anyone doubt what they believe. I only posted this because I felt that this would be a good place to start my search for these others that I firmly believe are scattered throughout the earth. With that said, rest assured, if I believed that by posting my beliefs I could bring others to the same conclusion, then I would post them every single day. However, I am well aware that I have no hope of convincing anyone that what I believe is the truth. I firmly believe that what I believe is something that only God can reveal by his Spirit to his true children. I have already learned this lesson well.

After completing the writing that I referred to in my original post, I sent it out to about 80 people I felt obligated to share it with. Knowing that this writing made a very clear case for all that I believe about the institutionalized church, I half expected a large part of them to tremble as the would come to clearly see the error of their ways. However, this just did not happen. A large majority never even finished reading this writing, and of those who did, they just passivly dismissed it as just another doctrine. Only one person called shaken up and filled with fear at the possibility that I had given her the truth (nothing came of this, she quickly dismissed the idea). So with the said, I want you to know that I have no intention of stirring up confusion, debate, or doubt.

Slav, if I am just a crazy man, then certainly those on this sight will not be shaken be my crazy beliefs. If the ground you stand on is strong, then it will not need defending.

With sincerity, and in a unproking spirit,
PJ

PJ,

According to your beliefs, were men like C.H. Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Mueller, Wesley and Ravenhill servants of darkness and spreaders of lies? Are all the preachers featured here on SermonIndex false?

My questions are, I assure you, sincere and not meant to put you in a defensive mode. I am trying to understand the extent of your beliefs and what, you claim, God has revealed to you.

Humbly,

Paul West

NOTE: This is not written to convince. To answer the previous question fairly, I feel I need to provide a few details of what I believe. I am not trying to convince or sway the ideas of anyone.

PaulWest wrote:
PJ,

According to your beliefs, were men like C.H. Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Mueller, Wesley and Ravenhill servants of darkness and spreaders of lies? Are all the preachers featured here on SermonIndex false?

Paul,

I am going to try to answer your question in a direct way shortly. However, I hope you will tolerate a little bit of foundation before I give this answer. This foundation I am laying is only meant to give you a general idea of where I am coming from. I am sure that it will be full of gaps and open ends. I believe that these gaps and open ends are sealed up in my complete writing if you would like to read it.

When John the Baptist came preaching “repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”, a great many people heard his message and truly and sincerely repented. By repent, I mean they turned their complete devotion to the Great God of the Universe. Some of these who repented did so because the sincerely realized the greatness of God and the fact that he was truly worthy of their devotion. They sincerely realized that they had been living with a misplaced allegiance and they willingly corrected this when confronted by John. On the other hand, there was another group who repented that did so only because they did not want to receive the wrath of this Great and Mighty God. Even though they did repent and give their allegiance to God, they were only doing so because the did not want to receive his wrath. It was not because they sincerely realized he was worthy of this devotion. When John saw these half hearted men coming to repent, he confronted them...

Matthew 3:7-12 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and the Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
(9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
(10) And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(12) Whose fain is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but the will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Here is what I believe John is saying...
I believe that John is telling the less than sincere repenters that Christ will surely accept them and baptize them with the promised Holy Spirit, but just the same, he is also going to baptize them with fire. This baptism in fire is not some additional spiritual blessing, but instead this fire is a reference to testing. Just as silver is refined in a fire to remove all impurities, Christ was going send a fire of his own to test all of those who came to him. Through this fire, the less than sincere believer would be burned up and removed from his kingdom. Just the same, the sincere believers would be proved true and worthy of his kingdom. This idea is further confirmed in verse twelve when he make a reference to Christ holding a fan to separate the wheat from the chaff.

This testing fire would certainly come, however it was still many years away.

Since the day of Pentecost, the day I consider the true birth of the true Church, Church history has been divided into two season. In scripture these seasons are spoken of in terms of either three and one half days, or three and one half years. Together they total seven. Seven is the number that refers to a complete cycle. From the birth of the Church till the end of all things would be one cycle. The number seven has no literal significance in any way, it is only used to show a full cycle or season. Just the same, when the Bible speaks of three and one half (whether it be days or years) this number has no literal significance, it is only used to show a division in the life cycle of the Church. The church would go through two separate seasons before it would come to its glorious climatic end.

Please note, as I write, I am not assuming you agree with any of this. I am only trying to convey what I believe.

The first season would be a season of protection, nourishment, and peace. This first season was the season in which God protected the church from the hand of its true enemy - Satan. We can see the season illustrated in Revelation chapter 12. The woman (the church) was sent away into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God.

For a season of time, God was protecting his newborn baby, the Church. It was during this time that the apostles had a strong and powerful ministry. They nourished and fed Gods child (the Church) during this time. They continually warned everyone to grow up to maturity in the faith. Unfortunately, a great many of these people did not press on to maturity. Eventually, a great many of these people began to grow cold in their hearts toward Christ, the one who was supposed to be their first love. These same people who were gloriously saved from sin, began to look back to it with longing. However, for fear of losing out on heaven, they would not dare consider blatantly rejecting the one who saved them. As God witnessed this coldness of peoples hearts, he prepared to release the enemy to have his way with them and sift them out of his kingdom. However, before doing this, just as he always sent prophets to warn people of coming doom, and to call people back to repentance, he sent Christ with one final call to repent. This call to repentance can be found in Revelation, Chapters two and three.

Unfortunately, few truly repented, and a day finally came when God removed his protecting hand from the Church. At this point, the Church entered into is second season. This season is illustrated in Revelation, Chapter 13. The Beast rose out of the see and had power to continue for three and one half years.

This beast was a spirit of Satan that would come and promote the greatest lie ever. The beast would offer a way of salvation that would allow people to occasionally continue in their sin and still get to heaven. Those who were less than sincere in their motives for following Christ, gladly received this lie. As they receive it, Christ spewed them out of his mouth. They failed the test. The were consumed by the fire. Only the true wheat did not accept this lie. Christ kingdom was now being purged from all the junk.

This testing fire still burns today. The beast is still deceiving all over the earth.

The people who left their first love – Christ – , in exchange for a lie, were considered harlots. These unfaithful people joined together and began a system of worship that still exist until today. This great harlot institution is described in Revelation as riding on the beast. By saying that the harlot was riding on a beast, the scripture is showing that the harlot institution is empowered and controlled by the beast.

The reason God allows this institution to remain is simply to keep the simple and foolish from entering into his kingdom. With the presence of this institution, it is certain that only the most sincere followers of God and his Son will be able to see past the lies of this false institution and escape from it.

Paul, this is a very brief, and choppy explanation. However, I hope you can get my basic idea. Now on to your question.

Regarding Ravenhill, and all the men we think of when we speak of him.

I do not believe that these men intentionally taught lies. I believe that they sincerely thought they were doing well. However, at the same time, I do believe that they also were deceived by this false institution because of their lack of true faith and devotion towards God. When I think of these men, a certain verse comes to mind.

Proverb 7:26 For she (the strange woman, or harlot woman) hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.

This passage is speaking about strong men who were slain by the harlot woman. I am firmly convinced that the harlot woman referred to in the first few chapters of Proverbs is the false church institution. When I think of strong men being slain by this institution, I can’t help but think of Ravenhill and the likes of him. These men professed a love for God. However, when it can down to who did there loyalty truly belong to, they gave there loyalty to the traditions and stories passed down within the institutionalized church. If these men would have given their complete devotion to God and his word, instead of the false church, I believe that they too would have reached the same conclusion I have reached today. However, as it is, I unfortunately believe that these men failed the test.

Not only do I believe that these men failed the test, but I also God uses these men to test others. I personally know that they played a roll in my testing.

It was easy for me to see that Kenneth Copeland was a joke (as well as all the other men we put in this category – TBN, etc.) However, the only way I was able to see past these other men you spoke of was by putting their books aside and giving my complete devotion to Christ. At a critical point in my life, I put all teaching aside and pledged to give my complete allegiance to Christ and his word. I pledged that I would not go against it no matter who I found my self apposed to. Little did I know at the time that I would eventually find my self opposed to the same men that I once held very dear (Yes, I did hold them dear. You can look up some of my postings from three and a half years ago in which I spoke very highly of Ravenhill).

Many wonder how could this be possible. How could these great men not be of God. To this I will respond with this verse.

Proverbs 5:3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil: (4) But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.

The devil knows exactly what to say and do to appeal to each and every man. He has organized the false church so that is very appealing. There are many different kinds of foolish and simple people, and a stumbling block exist for each and every one. For some it the prosperity movement, for others it’s a false miracle. For some it’s the moving testimony delivered by a missionary from overseas. And for others, it is the seemingly devoted men who speak about prayer and the need for revival in the institutionalized church.

Yes, the devil is smooth. Many people have fallen for his great charade. However, he does none of this strictly by his own will. Though he is arrogant and thinks that he is hurting the kingdom of God, he is foolish and doesn’t realize that he is doing the very work of God by removing the chaff from God’s kingdom.

I hope this answered your question,

Sincerely,
PJ

PS. Though I expressed my belief that these men were decieved, please do not confuse this and think that I am casting eternal judgement upon them. Since I believe that the institutionalized church is false, and since I believe that those who are a part of it are deceived, it is only logical that I conclude that these men must have also been deceieved. This conclusion is not based upon any specific character flaws that I think these men may have had, but instead it is based strictly upon the logic I just stated. I have nothing personal against any of these men. But to have spoken anything else than the answer I gave would have not been my true thought. Paul asked for my true thoughts, so I gave them to him. I hope the no one will accuse me of playing judge simply because I answered his question. I am well aware that I am not the final judge. The fate of these men lay in God's hands and I am sure that God will not ask for my opinion before making his judgement.

PJ,

Thank you for answering my question. I feel now that I have a much better grasp on what you believe. I appreciate your candor.

I'm really sorry that you've come to these extremist conclusions, realizing you most likely believe I too am part of this institutionalized "whore" since I worship God in the spiritual tradition of the Puritans and other Bible believing saints throughout the centuries.

As you have chosen to publically disclose your beliefs in this forum, and seek to link up with others of a like mind, I must humbly say that your situation should be a dire warning to us all. It reminds me of the likes of a certain Charles Russell, who, in the mid-1800's broke off from his evangelical faith with similar views and formed a faction, whose remnant, he claimed, always existed secretly, preserved by Jehovah to be faithful witnesses amidst the two-headed Satanic abomination of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism - otherwise known as "Christendom" or "The System".

But I realize you may differentiate yourself from the Russellites in a plethora of ways. Do you hold to anihilism (the anihilation of the wicked into a state of nothingness, eschewing the view that hell is a literal place of conscious torment)? Are you trinitarian? What happens when you meet other believers of your ilk, and your concepts of God, eschatology and Christology do not jibe? You realize, of course, that the moment you construct a formal creed, you will be no different from any of the other denominational components, sects, and cults of the whorish church-system which names Christ as head. Do you therefore believe that God has supernaturally fine-tuned all the true underground saints in your belief system to jibe with the abovementioned theological standpoints, even though you haven't yet met in the flesh?

If I were a fellow adherent of your convictions, I would certainly like to have an understanding of your detailed views regarding baptism, eternal security, the Holy Spirit, etc - unless, of course, you feel that none of that stuff really matters, and is not relevant to God's one true church. As underground believers, are we divinely proscribed from congregating until God brings the current wicked system to a finale? I know you will ask me to read your link, where questions like these are probably answered in full. In that case, I will cut to the chase, and only ask you one thing:

[b]Are only those who hold to [i]your[/i] beliefs truly born again and saved?[/b]

I pray you will be gracious enough to answer this question with the continued candor you have been demonstrating. You never know who is reading this! Someone with your views on faith may be reading this, and waiting to see how you answer, perhaps checking to see if your beliefs on these matters coincide with theirs. And, if for anything else, it gives people like me more of a knowledge of the details of your faith, so as to not make any unfair, hasty presumptions.

Paul

Jason, Has hope died for you? I am reminded of Moses when he struck the rock, "hear now, ye rebels!" Are those in the church no longer the people of God, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and therefore infinitely precious? Have you forgotten the price of their redemption? In casting off your weak brother you shall be estranging yourself from your Redeemer and his.

Has love died also? Again Moses said, "must I fetch you water out of this rock?" He was fed up with them, and they could sink or swim for all he cared just then. But if these things are written for our learning, then they illustrate an important, eternal principle, that we cannot make spiritual progress alone. The links are horizontal as well as vertical. Moses could not detach himself from God's congragation. The shepherd could not come home alone, that would be too easy, he struggles back with the sheep on his shoulders.

In Christ,

Ron

Paul,

From this point on, I will use much caution with what I say. You said that you don't want to reach "unfair, hasty presumptions," and yet you already have.

By comparing me to the man you spoke of, was quite umfair. Howeveer, it it not the first time I have been compared to an obvious cult. You make an ansumption, as everyone else does, that simply because I am in a minority, then I must be wrong. I'm sorry, this logic does not work for me. I am only wrong if I am wrong. That fact that a great majority believe a lie, does not make that lie a truth. No, it is only truth if it is truth. Yes, I am a most extreme minority, but this does not shake me, because I believe that what I believe is the truth.

You spoke of my link as if you have no intention of reading it. Why is this? I'm sure you are very busy, however, I would find it a great honor if you would take the time to do so. I would then apprectiate a complete rebuttal that is based upon scripture. Please do not include any human logic, church tradition, or human testimony. Instead, let scripture be you only tool to rebuke me. If I am so obviousoly off my rocker, than it would be a very simple matter to pick apart all that I believe.

To tempt me to answer questions with such brevity, is unfair. I spent many hours defining all I believe. Making brief statement or explanations on this sight is sure to only set me up to be the recipient of many febukes. However, even with this in mind, I will attempt to answer your final question.

PaulWest wrote:
PJ,

[b]Are only those who hold to [i]your[/i] beliefs truly born again and saved?[/b]

I pray you will be gracious enough to answer this question...
Paul

Paul, what I believe is not a doctrinal statement that I believe someone can acknowledge and be saved. However, I am very convinced that all who are truly saved will reach this conclusion. Knowing these facts will not lead someone to salvation, however, a trully saved person will reach these same conclusions.

My goal in posting was not to attract a following. Nor do I want to establish any form of organized system for those who know these secrets. No. I only posted because I am very, very eager to speak with another as myself. As you can see, I and my family are very much on our own. I would be the most incredible thing in the world to just speak with one of those who we consiider a brother.

The last thing in the world I want is for a multitude of bitter people to come and try to associate themselves with me only because they are bitter at the institutionalized church.

While it appears that you have already formed your own oppinions about me, I can assure you that the only thing I want is a chance to simply speak with another as my self.

From this point on, I will be most careful with what I say.

PJ

Dear Sermon Index Readers,

After posting my last post, I began to feel that mayby I was crossing the line of trying to defend my self. For this I am sorry. I had no intentions of ever defending myself. This forum belongs to people who hold the established church institution dear. I should expect and accept the fact that my ideas would be oppossed. I have no right to try to justify myself in this place. If I have done this in any way I am sorry.
Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to make the original post. If you ever come accross someone with similar beiefs as myself, even though you highly disagree with them, would you be kind enough to send them my way.

You are welcome to send me a private message if you have any sincere question about what I have written. However, apart from that, I will try to remain quiet regarding my beliefs.

Thank you for your patience,

Sincerely,
PJ