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Theology

Ability or Inability?

sermonindex Dec 20, 2006

I know that it's a very popular belief today that man cannot obey God. That is, not that man [i]doesn't[/i] obey God, but that man [i]cannot[/i] obey God, because man does not have the natural ability to obey God, which renders the commands of God impossible.

But let's look at the greatest of all commandments.

[b]Mr 12:30[/b] - "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God [b]with all thy[/b] heart, and [b]with all thy [/b]soul, and [b]with all thy [/b]mind, and [b]with all thy [/b]strength: this is the first commandment."

Here we see that God makes a very distinct qualification. "with all [i]thy[/i]" and again "with all [i]thy[/i]" and again "with all [i]thy[/i]" and again "with all [i]thy[/i]"

He does not ask you to love him with a heart that you don't have, or a soul that you don't have, or a mind that you don't have, or a strength that you don't have. But rather that God requires you to love him with all that you already possess.

Not only does God ask you to love Him with what you already have, but also with "[i]all[/i]" that you already have. God requires each man to love to the best and highest of his possible ability. To love with all that he has.

If a man has little ability then he is naturally required of little. If a man has much ability then he is naturally required of much. Luke 12:48 -"For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required"


Here is an important scriptural principal: requirement is proportionate with ability and obligation is proportionate with light.

Moral obligation requires both ability and knowledge. "To him who KNOWS to do right, and does it not, to HIM it is SIN." James 4:17

But regardless of the level of your ability, you are required to love with all of it! So if God only requires you to love with "all" that you possess, then God never requires an impossibility, not even from those who have little ability! But God's commandments are always reasonable because they are always keepable.

And what is love? Is love an emotion? Is love a physical substance? No! Love is caring. Or more specificly, love is the voluntary willing towards the end of good. The two greatest commandments are to will the highest well-being of all. And [i]your[/i] will is entirely within [i]your[/i] reach and it is never without your reach.

So we see that The Greatest of all Commandments is well within the ability realm of every single person without an exception. Which is why every single person is responsible for keeping The Greatest of all Commandments, without exception.

A
andres Dec 20, 2006

but what if Jesse, God gave us the ability to love him?
What if God's grace passed over a man's heart and switched it from a hateful heart to heart that beats after God, full of love for his Christ?
If someone gives you a gift, that gift is yours, but the gift came from someone other then yourself. if you went out a bought yourself a gift then it's not really a gift
when a christian loves God, it comes from a christian's heart but that change of heart comes from the free gift of God's grace..
love
andy
and believe me this is not a popular view, especialy here in america

sermonindex Dec 20, 2006

Ability does come from God's grace. All of our natural abilities were given to us by God in His grace.

We wouldn't be able to see if God didn't give us eyes in His grace. We couldn't walk if God didn't give us leggs in His grace. And we couldn't obey God if God didn't give us the ability, in His grace. All of our natural abilities were given to us by God in His grace.

But to say that God commands a man to do what he couldn't do, and that God condemns a man for failure to perform the impossible, then this is as Pharoah who commanded bricks when He gave no straw, and such tyranny the bible condemns! It would be to say that God commands the blind to see, though He gives no eyes. And that God commands the lame to walk, but He gives no leggs. And then sends them to hell for failure to do what He didn't give them the ability to do!

But the God of the bible clearly, by His grace, gives man the ability to obey what is required of him. If God tells you to do something, He'll give you the grace to do it.

A
andres Dec 21, 2006

so the ability to love God does come from God's grace... I think we both agree..
the next point is that unconverted men do not want to love God.. though the see God around them. they refuse to give him the glory due to him.. because they hate God.. and have no love in their heart's for God..So here comes God's grace and takes out the dead unloving heart and puts in a new heart that burns with love for Christ..then that said man can truly love God as he is commanded.. When you call men to repent jesse, those called by God repent by the power of God and the rest keep on hating God.. Man's inability rests in thier hatred for God and Man ability to love God rest in His(GOD's) power of the new birth..

sermonindex Dec 21, 2006

Ability does come from God's grace. All of our natural abilities were given to us by God in His grace.

Dear Jesse,

Here are a few Scriptures to consider:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find." Romans 7:18

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," 2 Corinthians 3:4-5

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13

"You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." 2 Corinthians 3:2-3

"For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:3-4

I thank God for His grace. I thank God for enabling me to fathom the riches of His grace! I thank Him that His grace is sufficient for me, that His strength is made perfect in my weakness.

Jesse, we have no sufficiency of our own. As natural people, we lack in understanding, in wisdom, in all things spiritual. Paul writes, "those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:8) We need to be led by the Spirit if we want to please God. That is the only way! Only then will the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death.

I ask you as a brother that you humble yourself before the Lord and ask Him to search you for any "little" sin--any strength or sufficiency you may have in yourself--and that you repent from it. Then ask the Lord to fill you will the Holy Spirit, trusting His Word: [i]"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" (Luke 11:13)[/i] Jesse, our God is faithful and just and His blessing will not tarry!

Grace, mercy, and peace be with you!

In Christ,
Slavyan

R
roadsign Dec 21, 2006

Some questions to consider regarding this topic:

What is the purpose of salvation?
What happens in regeneration, as it relates to the law of God?
What is the difference between the Old and the New Covenant?
Why did Christ have to die?
What are the implication of the resurrection?
How does God view the good works of the "old man", that is, anything done in the power of the flesh?

Diane

sermonindex Dec 21, 2006

When you call men to repent jesse, those called by God repent by the power of God and the rest keep on hating God.. Man's inability rests in thier hatred for God and Man ability to love God rest in His(GOD's) power of the new birth..

Amen, brother!

Another verse through which the Lord reminded me how insufficient we are is in the Abraham and Isaac story when Abraham lifts up the blade to kill his son, and an angel of the Lord stops him. Here is the passage:

But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, The-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, [i]“In the Mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”[/i]

What the Lord demands He himself provides. That is grace! Jesse, you will have to wrestle with God on this matter. You have my prayers!

Love,
Slavyan

D
death2self Dec 21, 2006

God is always the initiator it's easy to forget that sometimes but if I do the Lord has been very quick to show me this true.

But to say that God commands a man to do what he couldn't do, and that God condemns a man for failure to perform the impossible, then this is as Pharoah who commanded bricks when He gave no straw, and such tyranny the bible condemns!
This would be tantamount to saying that God is a hard master like the one who had one talent.

We can have a victorious walk over sin but that's Jesus victory, not ours. If I simply yield to Jesus, I won't sin. I read through the thread and immediately thought of Romans 8 and here's a couple of verses 12*13: 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

sermonindex Dec 21, 2006

Jesse,

According to Romans 5:19, we are guilty in Adam. As a human race that is where we begin. “In sin did my mother conceive me..."

We stand condemned because of the first Adam's disobedience. He was our faithful representative. According to the scripture, we all would have disobeyed.

I understand that the response to that is, "How can we be condemned for another man's disobedience?"

The answer is, “If I cannot be condemned for one man's disobedience, then I can not be made righteous by another Man's obedience!" (The Second Adam)

We cannot have one without the other.

So if the starting point for all men is condemnation in Adam, then anything that we try to do to gain favor with God (keep the commandments, love people, love God) is just simply dead works.
It is "filthy rags". "By the works of the law, shall no flesh be justified?"
"The flesh profits nothing"

We also need to remember that "Love" is the law!
Yes, all the law and the prophets are wrapped up in these two commandments:

Love God with all that you are, and love your neighbor as yourself (paraphrase), but it is still the law. Jesus did not just simplify the law and say..."Here now I've made it easy for you...now you can keep it.

No, He was telling us the very heart of the law is, LOVE! But it's still the law!

The law has one purpose for an unregenerate man...to be a School Master to drive him to Christ. And then Christ is the end of the law to all that believe.

Does that mean we do not have to Love now? No,..But what the law could not do in that it was WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH (INABILITY), God in sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

WHY?

That the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh (according to our own strength), but after the Spirit [You shall be endued with Power (ABILITY) after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.]

In our weakness (inability) His strength (ability) is made perfect.

P
philologos Dec 21, 2006

If God tells you to do something, He'll give you the grace to do it.

Indeed He will but only if the word comes from God in the first place. We do not obey by dipping into natural reserves of 'ability' but by specific Godwards faith.

This was what natural Israel missed and it is was Paul is referring to when he quotes Deuteronomy 30:12ff in [color=0000ff]“For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;” (Rom 10:5-8 KJVS). [/color]

R
RobertW Dec 21, 2006

But the God of the bible clearly, by His grace, gives man the ability to obey what is required of him. If God tells you to do something, He'll give you the grace to do it.

This is true. And we must not lose sight also that we need to be born again of the Spirit. Just because we 'can' don't mean we [i]want to[/i]. And this is where regeneration comes in. When we are born again God makes us a new creature with all the benefits of regeneration.

There is an old story of a little boy that the teacher told to 'SIT DOWN'. The boy kept standing until she threatened him with a switch. The boy then sat down and replied, "Well I may be sitting down, but in my heart I'm still standing up."

The need for regeneration has little to do with what we 'can' or 'can't' do. I believe it has everything to do with what we [i]desire[/i] to do. And no matter how much I may rebuke myself or sweat or whatever I may do to change my desire- I cannot do it. I may obey, but do I do it from my hearts desire or from fear? This is where I have to part company with Finney. He does not appreciate the need for a 'new creature' in the biblical sense. He places the work almost completely in the hands of the sinner.

The sinner can turn to God for a new heart but there is no way a animal can change his own spots. This is why Jesus near rebuked Nicodemas in John 3. We must be born again. This is a new creature and it is the working of the Holy Spirit. Man can only turn to God for the cure. That is the 'work' that we believe...

P
PreachParsly Dec 21, 2006

My pastor says something similar to this:

Christianity is not stopping things you still love, but the things you hate.

Of course he doesn't mean this to be that the end of Christianity is just not doing certain things for whatever the reason may be. But he means this in relation to becoming a Christian ie repentance/born again.

sermonindex Dec 22, 2006

No inability!!

Here is an exact Charles Finney quote from The Promise of The Spirit published by Bethany House 1980. Lecture 11. THE PROMISES--No. 1, page 135.

"We never keep the commandments, only as we take hold of the promises. By this I mean that grace alone enables us from the heart, to obey the commandments of God. It is, therefore, only when we lay hold of the promise, by faith, and receive its fulfillment in ourselves, that we really, in heart, obey the commandments of God. For example we never love the Lord our God, according to the first great commandment, only as we lay hold on, and receive the fulfillment of some such promise as this: "I will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live."
---------
We can take hold of the promises of God and then receive what we need.
-----
Exact quote from Finney's Systematic Theology -- 1851 Edition Lecture 50

"It is true indeed that God requires of men, especially under the gospel, what they are unable to do directly in their own strength. Or more strictly speaking, he requires them to lay hold on His strength, or to avail themselves of His grace, as the condition of being what he requires them to be. With strict propriety, it cannot be said that in this, or in any case, he requires directly any more than we are able directly to do. The direct requirement in the case under consideration, is to avail ourselves of, or to lay hold upon his strength. This we have power to do. He requires us to lay hold upon his grace and strength, and thereby to rise to a higher knowledge of Himself, and to a consequent higher state of holiness than would be otherwise possible to us. The direct requirement is to believe, or to lay hold upon his strength, or to receive the Holy Spirit, or Christ, who stands at the door, and knocks, and waits for admission. The indirect requirement is to rise to a degree of knowledge of God, and to spiritual attainments that are impossible to us in our own strength. We have ability to obey the direct command directly, and the indirect command indirectly. That is, we are able by virtue of our nature, together with the proffered grace of the Holy Spirit, to comply with all the requirements of God. So that in fact there is no proper inability about it."

---------
The grace of the gospel offers you, with every command, the strength to obey, and work in you the very thing commanded. Every command implies a corresponding promise, that is, if we are required to do anything by Christ, the very requirement is an implied promise or offer of all the aid we need to make it possible for us to perform it. Indeed, the command in itself is an implied gift of all needed help. The command itself implies the ability to obey it. Every command of God implies this in the strongest manner. It should be remembered that God is perfect in both love and wisdom: therefore He cannot be so unjust as to demand something from us that is impossible for us to perform. THE GRACE OF GOD TURNS THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW INTO A PROMISE OF GOD.


From Christian Perfection by Asa Mahan

The sinner is not required to "make himself clean," or to "make to himself a new heart," in the exercise of his unaided powers, but by application to the blood of Christ, "which cleanses from all sin." The grace which purifies the heart is provided; the fountain, whose waters cleanse from sin, is set open. To this fountain the sinner is brought, and because he may descend into it, and there "wash his garments and make them white," he can fulfill the command, "Wash you, make you clean," "make to yourself a new heart and a new spirit," and "cleanse yourself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit." The sinner is able to make to himself a "new heart and a new spirit," because he can instantly avail himself of offered grace. He does literally "make to himself a new heart and a new spirit," ONLY when he yields himself up to the influence of that grace. The power to cleanse from sin lies in the blood and grace of Christ; and hence, when the sinner "purifies himself by obeying the truth through the spirit," the glory of his salvation belongs, not to him, but to Christ.

sermonindex Dec 22, 2006

That's nice, but what do the scriptures say?

sermonindex Dec 22, 2006

1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, as did David his father.

2 Chronicles 14:2 And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God:

2 Chronicles 24:2 And Joash did that which was right in the sight of the LORD all the days of Jehoiada the priest.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Joshua 22:2 And said unto them, Ye have kept all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded you, and have obeyed my voice in all that I commanded you:

Haggai 1:12 Then Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, with all the remnant of the people, obeyed the voice of the LORD their God, and the words of Haggai the prophet, as the LORD their God had sent him, and the people did fear before the LORD.

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Did Adam or his descendants lose the ability to obey God after Adam's sin?

No!! The Bible tells the story of many people, some who walked with God and did what was pleasing in His sight and others who rebelled against God and did evil in His sight. It would be impossible to rebel or obey without the freedom to do so.

Joshua 24:15 "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." KJV

Isaiah 1:19-20 "If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land: but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it." KJV

It would not be possible to obey God if these people did not have this ability.


sermonindex Dec 22, 2006

What was it that reconciled you to God?

Your obedience or Christ's?

sermonindex Dec 22, 2006

What was it that reconciled you to God?

Your obedience or Christ's?

sermonindex Dec 22, 2006

Brother,

You are talking about a time when they did not have Christ. All they had was the Law of Moses and the Prophets. But after the Son of Man rose again the curtain in the temple was torn in two. Then, after Pentecost, the LAW of the SPIRIT OF LIFE in Christ Jesus set us free from the law of sin and death. Hence, a man keeping the whole law--and there is no such man--cannot be justified in the eyes of God. Listen to what Paul wrote to the Galatians: "I do not set aside the grace of God, for [b]if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing![/b]" (Galatians 2:21) Do you have a righteousness of your own? Mine is as filthy rags! "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Amen.


Peace and mercy,
Slavyan

[EDIT] I think brother Robert put it well:

The need for regeneration has little to do with what we 'can' or 'can't' do. I believe it has everything to do with what we desire to do. And no matter how much I may rebuke myself or sweat or whatever I may do to change my desire- I cannot do it.

R
RobertW Dec 22, 2006

What was it that reconciled you to God?

Your obedience or Christ's?

This is a good question. Christ's obedience made our redemption possible. It is our response to Him and the revelation of the Gospel that is our part in this matter. The somewhat that we must do is [i]faith[/i] and faith is our right response to the revelation of God's will in what He has established as our responsibility (repentance and faith).

R
RobertW Dec 22, 2006

Ron's opening podcasts Abraham My Friend deals with this topic quite well. They are only 12 minutes each and are well worth the listen. God wanted friends- not fear driven slaves.

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