Question for those who don't belive in a rapture

Rev 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

For those who don't believe in a rapture (which I don't think is a big deal) what do you say to this verse? Only this verse so far!

I think we've been over this before, but just to refresh the memory
The word "keep" here means guard. This is from Thayer's Greek Lexicon
G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to attend to carefully, take care of
1a) to guard
1b) metaphorically to keep, one in the state in which he is
1c) to observe
1d) to reserve: to undergo something
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to G2334)
Citing in TDNT: 8:140, 1174
[u]Here is the Strong's[/u]
G5083
τηρέω
tēreō
tay-reh'-o
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve,
It does not mean to take away from, never has never will.
There is a rapture, as Scripture says, but I believe some are confused about its timing.
Hopefully looking at these verses will give a little light.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 [b]Then cometh the end[/b], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Notice it is the end here, and then look at what happens
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 [b]The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [/b]
So if the last enemy is death and Christ is to have all enemies put under His feet, would it not be safe to say that it must be at the end of time?
Of course the rest of this chapter deals with death and resurrection, and it culminates with the following-
1Co 15:54 [b]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/b]
This would no doubt be after the resurrection of the dead, which if you look at
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 [b]But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power[/b](remember "oh death where is thy sting"), but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I think we've been over this before, but just to refresh the memory

Thanks! I wanted to know what the loop hole was. I don't think its a big deal if people differ here. God Bless!

What about the wording "keep you from". Doesn't that wording strike you as odd? Wouldn't your view make more sense if it said "keep you through" or "gaurd you in"?

I do believe that GOD will keep(protect through) the Church through the tribulation to come just as He kept Israel while pouring out wrath upon Egypt.

GraceAlone wrote:
Rev 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.(underline added - CJ)

For those who don't believe in a rapture (which I don't think is a big deal) what do you say to this verse? Only this verse so far!

Perhaps the emphasis should be placed on the words "trial" and "test". The saints who will be present during the tribulation shall not be being tested through it, as their testing has already occurred, as they endured the "prophetic rejection" associated with "living godly" (2 Tim 3:12).

During Old Testament times, there were periods where God sent Prophets in order to warn them of impending judgement, as a penalty for sin. Often these prophets suffered at the hands of the recipients of their message, and then suffered with their people as the penalty came upon the nation. Ravenhill put it this way, "A prophet sufferers for the people, with the people and by the people." Were these prophets suffering as a result of wrong doing? perhaps in part, but their involvement was not one of trial, as their trial had occurred before and during the delivery of the message. For the most part, they were willing participants, foreshadowing the suffering Christ for their people.

Could it be as simple as the these saints are being "kept [b]from[/b]" the trial, even though they are enduring the event that is bringing trial to the world? I once heard someone commentating on John"s participation in the writing of the Book of Revelation (which is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ", not the "Revelation of St John"). He mentioned John's predicament as the vision was unfolding, was that he was alone and enduring imprisonment on the Isle of Patmos, and noted how John referred to this time by saying that he was "in the Spirit".

Could this be a taste of a future revelation of saints enduring calamitous tribulation, all the while considering themselves to have the privilege of being "in the Spirit"? Could this be what Christ meant when he mentioned that some would not "taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power"?"

As a side note, I think that there are few that don't believe in a rapture. The question isn't one of "if", but of "when". The issue that those stand against are against a "pretribulational" viewpoint of the rapture is that it would require two "second comings", one secretly, and one plain. Also, most of us have heard the "pretib" theory, with it's disclaimer "there are other viewpoints, and we might be wrong", but few seem to have heard a faithful presentation of "Historicist" and/or "Posttrib". I have a tendency to be wary of doctrinal theories which require ignorance of the alternatives, to believe.

God is a "stand alone" God, and the Bible is a "stand alone" Book. It will stand amongst it's competitors and leave them sounding ridiculous. Just my two cents anyway....

bro Gracealone
for starters, the verse you have quoted ought to be looked at in the context in which it is given, ie in reference to the Church it is being spoken of. of all 7 Churches, only Smyrna is told she will be spared from the hour of trial. the rest (even Philadelphia which had no reprimand brought against it) were not given any such guarantee. 5 of them, Pergamos, Ephesus, Laodicea, thyatira and sardis were told some sort of judgment would befall them unless they repented. i don't buy the whole pretrib rapture thing because as it stands, the Church needs much cleansing and judgement does begin at the house of God (see 2 Peter) and if you look at the Revelation, the first people who get judged before the tribulation begins are the very saints of God. now let us suppose that the above verse does point to a rapture, this would mean the rapture would not be for every saint because only Smyrna got the out and if we take each church to comprise a part of the whole, then only a small portion will be eligable making the rapture am event of much smaller proportion than is widely believed...there are going to be a lot of unhappy saints...

there are going to be a lot of unhappy saints...

If we say it only applys to the Philadelphian church we also say that 2:10 only applies to the church of Smyrna.

2:10
"Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. "

Yet, it applies to all who are persecuted throughout all ages.

bro Gracealone
i said what i did in under the assumption that whoever read that verse was trying to use it as justification for the rapture. it seems to me it's more about God giving the saints grace enough to endure and indeed this applied to saints throughout the ages. i think though that the illustration of the 7 Churches each with differing characteristics is indicative of Christians, from then till now; which church are you more like? maybe this is something we ought to consider?

the bottom line is that the Church is in need of much cleansing and if out Lord chooses to use the trib to that end somehow, who is to stop Him? also it is better to suffer for a season and be purged and purified than to suffer for all eternity.in that scenario it may be for us what it was like for Israel in the days of the plagues in egypt.

either way God's will shall be done.

Thanks one reason I don't think its a big deal... if there is a rapture we'll all find out sooner or later :-)

If not- we'll find out at the end of the trib!

God Bless

bro Gracealone
that's what i said :-P i agree bro.

bro Gracealone

it is BRO Roaringlamb right?
so it is SIS Gracealone...looked at her profile and discovered that...why didn't anyone tell me!!! :-P sorry sis

Yep I am a bro, and may our Lord bless you and keep you today. Grace and peace to you.

its ok it happens :-)

For someone to interpret a pre-tribulation rapture from Revelation 3:10 they must view the different churches and being different church ages.

I for one do not see the Bible making this distinction between the churches when I read Revelation. On the contrary, there have been Philadelphian church's, Laodecian church's, Smyrna churches and etc. throughout the entire Christian age.

How do we not know that those church messages were not specifically for the time period in which they were written?

brethren

How do we not know that those church messages were not specifically for the time period in which they were written?

the fact that those people then were the Church, and we still are the Church says we're subject to the same judgments if we are guilty of the same thing...let he who hath ear hear what the Spirit is saying to the Churches...

Some of my dearest Christian role models didn't/don't believe in a rapture in the sense that much of the Western church does... I really think the best argument put forth against a 'rapture' in the sense that we know it was articulated by Corrie Ten Boom.

The popular interpretation of these verses speaking to Philadelphia are as follows:
- The churches addressed are different ages of the church.
- The church at Philadelphia is the present church age because the rapture is soon approaching.
- God will keep the present church age from the coming tribulation because 'they are not appointed to wrath'.

This is reading into the scripture something that it does not say. Here are some facts about the church at Philadelphia:
- They have little power
- They have kept Christ's word
- They have not denied Christ's name
- God will make those of the synagogue of Satan bow before the church
- They will be kept from the trial coming upon the whole world to try those on the earth.

Nothing is mentioned about a rapture. Only those with a preconceived notion of a rapture will see a rapture discussed in these verses.

These verses mean exactly what they say. There was a church in Philadelphia who persevered through great trouble because God kept them safe through the hour of trial.

The Shepherd of the sheep will not send them to go over a cliff, unless he is at the bottom to catch them, which teaches them to trust in Him. Only the sheep that are not listening to the Shepherd will crash on the rocks. "My sheep hear my voice"

In Christ: Phillip

GraceAlone wrote:
Rev 3:10
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

For those who don't believe in a rapture (which I don't think is a big deal) what do you say to this verse? Only this verse so far!

Interesting question.

I used to believe in a future rapture, Anti-Christ, etc but after a lot of studying I changed my stance. Now I do believe in the second coming of Christ, so I guess for me its a matter of "when" all this happens/happened. As for the verse you quoted, if you notice the word "world" you will find an interesting definition...

G3625
οἰκουμένη
oikoumenē
oy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.

If you look at Luke 2:1 you will see that when Caesar Augustus decreed a census of the "world" the same word oikoumene is used. IOW a tax was going to be instituted for the whole Roman empire, not the entire globe of the Earth. When the term "world" was used by Rome it was refering to the whole of the Roman Empire (the conquered lands where Roman was in power).

Also the word "Earth" its defined as...

G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part, or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

Again this points not to the entire globe but to a section, part or region of the land, which I believe better indicates the whole Roman Empire (part of the globe and its inhabitants, and not the entire globe/earth).

At any rate it doesnt matter to me as much as it used to - we know who wins in the end. If there is a rapture thats great (take me early... yipee!), if not, then I continue to live as Christ (and eventually, die is gain). Good stuff regardless.

What I do find disturbing with most "rapture-ists" (along with most other christians) is that they do not witness to the lost souls around them (despite the command for us to do so). We are commanded to witness, yet most Christians would rather "wait" for the rapture, sit in church and "wait upon the Lord" so to speak). Its strange that when I was a future rapture-ist I didnt witness as much as I do today (now I actively witness and open air preach on a regular basis).

Anyway studying up on end times theology is interesting, but lets not forget the commands of He who saved us (he who loves me, obeys my commands).