Which law?

Hello,

I ran across these verses and was needing some help.

Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

What is the difference? I know there has to be one...

Hi PP,

well my initial response would be that the Rom 2 law is the remaining moral code that we have in us after the fall.

The Heb 10 law is not a law at all, it is himself, the writer of the law. The words 'into' and 'in' lead me to believe this way. It is an external action and the only thing that I know that comes into me now is the Holy Spirit.

So...we'll have to wait for the big guns.

Cheers,

Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to accomplish it... The old law, the law given by covenant to Israel leads only to death, but Jesus has given us the law of life through his grace -that law that can live in our hearts by the Spirit!
The old law is death, but the new law -the accomplished law lives in us as a person... I hope I'm not being too abstract.

Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to accomplish it... The old law, the law given by covenant to Israel leads only to death, but Jesus has given us the law of life through his grace -that law that can live in our hearts by the Spirit!

Do you think that law mentioned in Romans is the Mosaic Law?

Well there's whole books written on that [what Paul is talking about in Romans] and I wouldn't claim to be a authority -I do know that Paul mentions several times that it impossible to live by the law so now its time to look up verses.

Romans 2:17-29 (emphasis on 29) tells about the mosaic law and how it is an inner law, a circumsician of the heart.

So the mosaic law is written on the hearts of all men although not often listened to or obeyed, it may be what we could call a concience... CS Lewis implies this in his book Mere Christianity, a very good read.

5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.

6:15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

7: 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

7:10 I found that the very commandment [the law] that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

[b] 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! [u] So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.[/u][/b]

Note: there are two laws at work here according to Paul.

And finally!!!

8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 [b][u]because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.[/u][/b]

In Romans 2 Paul is clearly talking about the Mosaic Law which is the law of sin and death and in Hebrews 12 the writer is talking about the Law of the Spirit!

Zac Poonen talks about this in depth in several messages:
Basic Teachings 21 : Law and Grace
http://www.cfcindia.net/tbsaudio/25_Basic_Christian_Teachings/21_Law_And_Grace.mp3
Topical Studies: A Better Covenant 1-6
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/topical_bible_study.php#betterCovenant

PreachParsly wrote:

Jesus didn't come to destroy the law but to accomplish it... The old law, the law given by covenant to Israel leads only to death, but Jesus has given us the law of life through his grace -that law that can live in our hearts by the Spirit!

Do you think that law mentioned in Romans is the Mosaic Law?

Digging deeper,

What is the difference? I know there has to be one...

Are you sure there has to be a difference? Here is something from Poul Madsen on the Romans verse...

"Whom is Paul thinking of when he speaks of those who "shew the work of the law written in their hearts" and who "do by nature the things of the law"? Can they be other than those whom he is going to describe in verses 25-29? "He is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." The Gentiles who "by nature fulfil the law" are those who have had their hearts circumcised. Outwardly they are uncircumcised, but inwardly they are truly circumcised. God has given His law in their inwards parts and written it in their hearts (Jeremiah 31:33). He has given them a new heart and a new spirit, He has taken the stony heart out of them and given them a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). Only thus can it be that on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men He will find the deeds and spirit of the law written in them. In principle they are the doers of the law and will therefore be justified in the judgment. If you find it hard to accept that Paul's words in this section refer to God's children when they speak of "Gentiles", may I point out that later on he specifically addresses them in this way: "I speak unto you that are Gentiles" (11:13)."

In Christ,

Ron

Yes, but I think the problem is that you may be dating the mosaic law as only coming into affect at that time, those laws are eternally relevant.

Then what does this mean?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was [b]added[/b] because of transgressions, [b]till[/b] the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Thanks for the post Ron. I will do some thinking and see what I think. :-D

To the original question after a brief reading in context, my guess is that:

the Romans verse is referring to the Gentiles who are "a law to themselves" know the things that are commonly known of all. The work of the law in all hearts telling us that murder, deceit, and adultery are wrong. The law that makes all without excuse.

the Hebrews verse is talking about the renewing work of the Spirit in the believer. While all have the above mentioned knowledge of right and wrong, what Finney called 'the lower millstone of the law', the believer has the law applied in a much deeper way, in that he delights in the law and things that please the Lord.

So I would say that the Romans passage is preconversion work of the law, and the Hebrews passage is postconversion work of the law, both in the heart of man.

PreachParsly wrote:

Yes, but I think the problem is that you may be dating the mosaic law as only coming into affect at that time, those laws are eternally relevant.

Then what does this mean?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was [b]added[/b] because of transgressions, [b]till[/b] the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

rgds,

So I would say that the Romans passage is preconversion work of the law, and the Hebrews passage is postconversion work of the law, both in the heart of man.

You believe that the conscience and the laws written on their heart are the same thing?

I have lost you! I don't so the contention, please explain?

Those verses I quoted tell that the Mosaic law was only during the Old Covenant. So, the Mosaic law can't be eternal. Are there 'laws' that spread over all dispensations? Sure, but is it equal with the Mosaic law?

PreachParsly wrote:
Thanks for the post Ron. I will do some thinking and see what I think. :-D

I found out that I thought! :-D I agree completely with it. Thanks Ron!

I found out that I thought! I agree completely with it. Thanks Ron!

Don't thank me, thank Mr. Madsen, actually he may no longer be with us so just thank the Lord! :-D

The quote that I posted is from Poul Madsen who wrote a Danish commentary on the book of Romans, extracts from that commentary were written in English and published across several editions of the bi-monthly magazine titled Toward The Mark. The first part can be found online at the following link...[url=http://www.oscar51.net/ttm/ttm06-1.html#13]Chapter by Chapter Through Romans[/url]

In Christ,

Ron

"You believe that the conscience and the laws written on their heart are the same thing?"

Not exactly, but pretty close and very closely related. The law is God's standard. The conscience is man's God-given knowledge of right and wrong. The man's conscience recognizes (bears witness) that there is a standard in all mankind; some things are clearly good, some clearly evil. It is the conscience that understands the law. The conscience is internal, and the law is external. So the conscience recognizes the external law, and has the law's work (the working conscience) written into it.

While the heart and the conscience have some differences, they are inseperable.