brentw
Jan 3, 2007
Romams 7:19 "...the evil which I would not, that I do."
Did Paul struggle with sin???
Romams 7:19 "...the evil which I would not, that I do."
Did Paul struggle with sin???
brentw wrote:Romams 7:19 "...the evil which I would not, that I do."
Did Paul struggle with sin???
Not in the way that that scripture implies.
Romans 7:14,19-20,24-25 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I... For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me...
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? {the body…: or, this body of death}
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord..."
Because Christ is the one who can deliver form the bondage of sin. Hallelujah!
Romans 8
1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {for sin: or, by a sacrifice for sin}
4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. {to be carnally…: Gr. the minding of the flesh} {to be spiritually…: Gr. the minding of the Spirit}
7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. {the carnal…: Gr. the minding of the flesh}
8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his..." (Read the whole chapter, it is rich in speaking of the victory we have over sin.)
[b]THE MIND, THE FLESH, THE WILL
Does Romans 7 describe a man being a slave of sin contrary to his own will?
There are so many interpretations of the battle Paul is describing in Romans 7. Some say it’s the battle between the will and the flesh, others between the will and the mind, others between the mind and the flesh. But we should let Paul interpret what he is saying.
The passage which helps to properly interpret what Paul is talking about is:
Romans 7:23 - But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Here, we see Paul speaking about the law of his mind, the law of his intelligence, which is in collision with the law of sin, the physical desires of sin, which he finds within his own members.
This helps us to understand Romans 9:19 - "For the good that I would [mind] I do not [flesh]: but the evil which I would not [mind], that I do [flesh]."
This is describing the battle between Paul’s mind and Paul’s flesh. Remember, Paul at this point in his conversion experience is in a state of conviction for his sin because of the commandments (vs 13). This conviction is not a mere phenomenon of the sensibilities, not a mere feeling or emotion, but is a convincing of the mind, when the intellect becomes totally convinced of guilt. Paul’s mind has been utterly convinced, or utterly convicted by the law of God that he is guilty of sin, and that sin must not be chosen. But Paul’s flesh has been corrupted by himself, so that his flesh is almost crying out for sin because of the gratification that it brings.
A great illustration of this battle Paul is having can be seen in the struggle of a cigarette smoker. Suppose a smoker is utterly convinced in their mind that smoking is not good for them whatsoever. They do not want to smoke, that is, in their mind they do not want to smoke. But their flesh now has a law for smoking, a demand for smoking. There is now a conflict between the law of their mind and the law of their flesh.
Motivation has not yet been introduced into this scenario. When a smoker’s heart motivation, or their ultimate will, is that of self-gratification, they will smoke. They do not smoke because they love the cigarette. For in fact, they hate cigarettes. But they love self-gratification. And so they do what they don't want to do, what they in fact hate to do, because they love what it brings. They go contrary to the "want" of their mind to fulfill the "want" of their flesh. The wills "want" submitted to the fleshes "want" rather then the minds "want".
This is where Paul is in his story of his conversion in Romans 7. His mind has been utterly convinced of the rightness of God's requirements. He delights, with his mind, in the law of God (vs 7). He consents, with his mind, that the law is good (vs 16). Therefore he hates, with his mind, the sin (vs 15). He does not want, with his mind, the sin (vs 15). But with his flesh, he wants the sin, not for the sake of the sin, but for the sake of what it brings (vs 18). His mind wants to do good, but his flesh wants to do evil (vs 23). His mind serves the law of God; his flesh serves the law of sin (vs 25).
But this has not yet mentioned the "want" of his will, but only the "want" of his mind and the "want" of his flesh. These "wants" mentioned by Paul are not of the heart or the intention, but of the mind and of the flesh. His motivation or his intention determines which direction he will walk in. If his motivation is self-gratification, he will obey the flesh. If his motivation is the glory of God and the well-being of all, he walk walk according to the Spirit. And he goes on to Romans 8 about walking after the Spirit instead of the flesh.
The struggle Paul is describing in Romans 7 is not the struggle between his own will and his own flesh. Nor the struggle between his owns will and his own mind. Paul is not saying that he is an unwillful servant of sin. For that would contradict what Jesus said about servant hood (John 8:34), and what Paul elsewhere said about servant hood (Romans 6:16) that what you willfully obey is what you are serving. That servant hood is always preceded by willful obedience. But the specific "warring" which Paul is describing in detail is the battle between his minds demands and the demands of his flesh. (vs 23). But it cannot be properly interpreted to say that Paul was sinning against his will, or a servant of sin against his will, but rather that the "want" described was not regarding the will at all, but was regarding the "want" of his mind and the "want" of his flesh.
And Paul ends his conversion experience of Romans 7 wonderfully, but going into Romans chapter 8.
Paul was describing this pre-conversion experience in Romans 7:14-25 through the use of the historical present tense. Victory over sin is the normal Christian experience.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
I would encourage you to go back and look at what the early church fathers said about this passage. It appears to me to have changed by Augustine and perhaps earlier by Origen.
Conversion never occurs until we're at our wit's end where we quite literally cry out "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" There's no way to be free until we see our condition before a holy God and are willing to come only to Jesus.
Here's an article written by a Godly scholar on the topic of Romans 7: [url=http://www.fwponline.cc/v10n1reasoner.html]Romans 7
amen brother.
There are people who spend their entire lives and ministries on this question alone. Hundreds of volumes of literature written on what Paul really means in Romans... so don't expect an easy answer.
For my own part I will try to explain where the common theology falls -all have to do with the idea of sanctification. I'll use my own designations to explain where I see the divisions.
Fatalism would argue and I think many more Christians than not would fit into this camp - that Sin is inevitable, we should learn to avoid temptation and when we do fall, we should ask for forgiveness. There is nothing wrong with this in as much as all the theology is sound, except it has a very limited understanding of grace and several of the 'promises' of God.
The moderate sanctification camp would suggest and I think properly (Leonard and Zac Poonen would fall in here somewhere) that we have a promise from God that he won't let our foot slip (check out the end of Jude if you don't know what I'm talking about... its in the OT a few places too) and since God is faithful to keep his promises there is a chance to live a VICTORIOUS life. Meaning that we are no longer slaves to sin, but masters over sin. Now this does leave room for us to occasionally make mistakes and fall, just as some would argue Paul had done when he kicked out Mark early on... We're all growing more and more like Jesus, but we can't be completely sanctified and glorified until we leave this mortal coil.
Entire Sanctification (what many on this forum seem to believe) argues that a person will have a sanctification moment that he will no longer have any sin in him, and no longer sin... ever. Well if you find someone who has been entirely sanctified and is still living I'd love to meet him. I'd really like to become his disciple... but the last time I checked, anyone who claimed this spiritual gift was usually followed by scandal or hypocracy. The most humble people I know are usually the first to admit that they still struggle with sin... but their struggles tend to be more victorious and sometimes seem trivial to the rest of us. I've been told that I exagerate too much, I know I shouldn't and have repented of occasions when it became a problem... but I have not agonized as some of my Christian brothers have done... frankly there are still bigger fish for me. Hopefully some day the worst sin I'll have to worry about is a little bit of exageration (mind you it's all equal in the eyes of Jesus).
So yeah, we shouldn't live fatalistically, accepting sin and living outside of the Grace of God and the power to have victory over sin... but we also shouldn't chase a pipe dream of some fantastic experience where we no longer have to deal with any of the tough parts of sin and life. Many Christians chase after an easy sanctification experience and ignore all the verses that say 'i beat my body and make it my slave' or 'we have not yet resisted sin to the point of shedding blood'... The bible never said that living an upright life was going to be easy, he promised us an easy yoke, but also plenty of suffering along the way!
I think as I get older in the Lord I change in beliefs or doctrinal stances. When I was in my 20's I was VERY hard when it came to Romans 7 in preaching it....I used to believe it was Pauls pre-salvation.....but now I'm not sure.
I've read hundreds of books as a pastor...old books, but its still let me hanging about Romans 7.
Heres a thought about Romans 7...Paul said he "despaired even of life..." You mean Paul the Apostle despaired?? Can the two be connected in the real meaning of Rom.7???
Last year I went through a period where I bought every book with the word sanctification in the title, ever book on the second blessing and the baptism of the Holy Spirt -which is pretty radical for a Baptist.
I read them all passionately, I craved victory more than anything else... I know what my struggles are, and am constantly being maligned by temptations and failures. I'll wake up and have a brilliant morning of prayer and communion with the Lord, but come home with my head held in shame at the things I'd said and the way I acted throughout that day.
But then I realized, for all of the people that preach an entire sanctification, I'd never met anyone who was actually living in it. Even the writers themselves still struggled with sin and made mistakes. I'm not saying that I accepted my sin and my state, but I woke up and realized there was no magical experience that was going to make me a super-christian over night. It was going to be a long hard path of self denial and struggleing to carry the cross that the Lord had given me.
God does promise that he will be faithful to keep my foot from slipping, but I also have to have faith in Him that he can, and sometimes I don't, and sometimes I take the easier road, or the more comfortable one, or follow after my own selfish desires.
Of course there is a desire to be sold out for Jesus (Heck, I work for a non-profit Christian ministry... and I've learned the truth about non-profit -I've sold just about everything I have to make rent!) but there's a seperate law working within my body that is constantly working against that. Sometimes I have victory over that other law, sometimes I don't... but I believe that on this road I will be more and more victorious the more I trust that Jesus is by my side.
I doubt, however, that I will ever be able to claim that I am living entirely without sin -at the very moment I asserted that claim I'd probably find myself falling face down in sin. I'm glad that I've realized this while I'm still young and didn't waste too much time running after a dream of entire sanctification... American Christians are so caught up in instant this and instant that... and we ignore the parts that say 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling.' I'm tired of all this WalMart, easy off-the-shelf Christian Sanctification.
But then I realized, for all of the people that preach an entire sanctification, I'd never met anyone who was actually living in it. Even the writers themselves still struggled with sin and made mistakes. I'm not saying that I accepted my sin and my state, but I woke up and realized there was no magical experience that was going to make me a super-christian over night. It was going to be a long hard path of self denial and struggleing to carry the cross that the Lord had given me.
Truth well spoken. This is my battle described perfectly. I thought once if I read every book recommended, and adapted practices from famous ministers(puritans, methodists, etc), I'd be an instant E.M. Bounds. But currently I'm struggling not to be a Demas.
It is a long walk indeed. But no doubt if it is walked dilligently and sincerly, victory will come.
One of the best books I have every read on this subject is called " The Norman Christian Life" By Watchman Nee. It revolutionized my life. Try it, it is simple to understand and very liberating.
What do we do with this?
Galatians 5:16-26 (New American Standard Bible)
[color=FF0033]16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.[/color]
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
[color=990000]24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.[/color]
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
God Bless
TJ
Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, [i]who walk not after the flesh
Whoever thinks he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.
In Christ,
Slavyan
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Paul is not saying that he is an unwillful servant of sin. For that would contradict what Jesus said about servant hood (John 8:34), and what Paul elsewhere said about servant hood (Romans 6:16) that what you willfully obey is what you are serving. That servant hood is always preceded by willful obedience.
In John 8:34 Jesus was talking to Jews who were appealing to their natural relation to Abraham (they were Jews by birth). They said to Jesus that they were free, simply because they were physically related to Abraham. And Jesus told them the same thing Paul argues in Romans chapter 2 and 3. (Actually in the much of Romans) That ALL are under sin. These were unregenerate men that Jesus was talking to; not believers. (Go back and read John 8) They were trusting in their flesh and not the Promise, and that’s' why Jesus told them that if they were actually Abraham's seed they would do the works of Abraham. Abraham believed the Promise. (See Galatians...See Genesis)
To understand Romans 6:16, you actually have to keep reading until you hit vs. 17 and 18. Those verses tell us when believers actually become the servants of righteousness.
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
We were MADE free from sin, and we BECAME the servants of righteousness when we OBEYED THE GOSPEL. When we trusted in the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST we were MADE free from sin and BECAME the servants of righteousness. That's why Jesus said back in John 8 (to the same Jews who were trusting in their flesh)...You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall MAKE YOU FREE!
So now we can see why Paul goes right into the struggle with sin. Because if you are like me, a serious question arises:
"Well, if I am a servant of Righteousness, and I am free from sin, then why do I have such a struggle with sin?"
It is our natural inclination, especially as believers, to look to the law of God, or the commands of God, and measure ourselves by them.
We say, “Now that I am a Christian I am going to Love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength, and I am going to love everyone I come in contact with, as I love myself."
We go to the Sermon on the Mount and we say,
" I am not going to lust after any women"
" I am not going to hate anyone"
" I am not going to think about the worries of tomorrow"
" I am going to be salt and light today"
" etc."
The only problem with that is, that Paul admonishes us to not serve God in the "oldness of the letter", but in the "newness of the Spirit".
To simply look at the commands of God and determine to obey them is serving in oldness of the letter.
The only thing that activity can produce is the struggle that Paul deals with in Romans 7.
In the end we will fall under condemnation and we will actually sin more. Paul said the law actually wrought in him the desire to sin. Not because the law was bad, but because, in his flesh their dwells no good thing!"
The only thing the law can do for us is CONDEMN US! We will find no ability within the law to obey God! None! Try it! You might go crazy! I almost did!
But God be praised...He has freed me from the law of sin and death, by…
THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS
I have died to Moses' law, which gave life and power to the law of sin and death in me.
I have been married to another. Jesus Christ!
He is now my standard. He is now the law that governs me.
He did not come to me to condemn me, but that through Him I might be saved; saved from wrath and saved from my sin. He came so that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in me.
How?
What is this new law? THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS?
It can be defined by Psalm 27:1 - The Lord is my Light and my Salvation whom shall I fear?
He is now my Light – HE now reveals to me the sin in my life. As I behold him in His Word I see HIS complete "otherness". Like Peter, I fall at His feet and confess that I am a sinful man.
But unlike Moses’ law, which can only condemn...
He has also become my Salvation - He sets me free from my sin and promises me that I will be conformed in to His image. Like Mary, He tells me that Christ will be formed in me! Not by any thing that I can do, but the Holy Spirit will come upon me, and the Power of the Most High will over shadow me, and the Holy Son of God will be formed in me. It His Promise and HE CANNOT LIE!
There is therefore now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (May I paraphrase)...who do not try to walk with God according to the oldness of the letter, but the newness of the Spirit.
THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS!
Praise God Mahoney,
Christ truly is or righteousness and wisdom, our life and our justification, our all in all, our sanctification and our redemption. There is no substitute for Him. The Law in its death blow to those that try to keep it is a lagging substitute for Him. More of Him is our cry, less of me.
In Christ Jesus we live: Phillip
Brother Mahoney wrote:
The only thing that activity can produce is the struggle that Paul deals with in Romans 7.In the end we will fall under condemnation and we will actually sin more. Paul said the law actually wrought in him the desire to sin. Not because the law was bad, but because, in his flesh their dwells no good thing!"
Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
We are given a conscience of what God's law requires, yet in our flesh, according to our carnal mind, we do not know "how to perform what is good..."
Only by the law of the Spirit do we find "how to perform what is good..."
2Sam. 22:47 \t“The LORD lives!
\tBlessed be my Rock!
\tLet God be exalted,
\tThe Rock of my salvation!
God Bless you and your 'simple message"
In Christ
Jeff
God Bless you too Brother Phillip with your simple message...
Jeff
That there is sin in our lives is one thing but it is totally unbiblical to make covenant with sin. We are told to fight the good fight. We are in a warfare with this against the enemy and it is God's will for us to overcome {overcome was said to all 7 churches of Revelation 2+3}. We are equipt to do battle {Ephesians chapter 6}. If we don't utterly defeat the enemies {sins} of our lives we can expect that our very children won't know the Lord.
Judges chapter 1 to 2:10
Judges 2:10 And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.
We must examine our hearts like the priest looking into his reflection in the water that was in the brasen laver before washing and confess our sins to God. We must never be satisfied with partiality having one foot in the world and one out. Our offering to God must be unleavened to be a living sacrifice to God and a burnt offering to God consumed by his fire. We must break down altars that aren't appointed by God, break down high places that aren't appointed by God, slay the Agags of our lives, kill the Baal worshipers of our lives {sins} to be vessels of honor and fit for God's use.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honor, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
To accept the sins of our lives and quit the battle against these sins is to place our lives in a place where we are not meet for the master's use and out of God's use for the great commission.
Paul was no different then the rest of us. Just as James said about Elijah, he was a man of like passions, just like everyone else.
I think Paul made it clear in Galatians Chapter 5 and Romans Chapter 8 that the struggle for us all is not realy a struggle with sin but a struggle between the flesh and the spirit.
We all struggle with sin when we reduce ourselves to walking in the flesh and not the Spirit.
our victory comes from what we do in the prayer closet...and when we continue in the Word of God.
Then when faced with temptaion and sin we are stronger and can overcome.
Just as a soldier wins the battle in boot camp by training for the war before he gets on the battlefield....we prepare ourselves for victory in the secret closet of prayer and living a life of obedience to God and his Word!
If you walk in the spirit you will not fullfill the lust of the flesh.
Paul surely must have known this not only by revelation but by experience as well.
God Bless
Brother Gary wrote:
That there is sin in our lives is one thing but it is totally unbiblical to make covenant with sin. We are told to fight the good fight. We are in a warfare with this against the enemy and it is God's will for us to overcome
As we grow in the Lord, we also enter into the battle that He battles. The warfare is not only against the ways of the flesh, but also against Satan himself. This type of love can only be learned as we follow the Spirit. Breaking down the high places is an impossible task if done according to the flesh. But by His Spirit we are called to tear down, reveal the lie, and then to build. This wisdom comes as we mature in Christ.
John teaches about the babe, young man, and the father. The babe's sins are forgiven for His sake. The young man overcomes Satan because the word of God lives strong in him. The father is the one who has known Him from the beginning. May we all have the same heart and mind, to forget what is behind and to look to the upward call of Christ in our lives.
God Bless
Jeff
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