Prophets Playing with Fire...

"Behold, I come [i]quickly[/i]" (Rev. 22:12)

Jesus Christ said this over 2,000 years ago. Corey, what is the difference between this and Greg saying that a nuclear attack is "iminent"? Or with Ravenhill thinking America will be destroyed soon? None of these have been proven false, plus I know that when men like Ravenhill spoke, they would often put forth disclaimers like "I may be wrong, but..." Very wise, but even if they didn't, it still wouldn't make them false prophets. Saying "I think" or I believe" is not the same as doing what Isaiah or Jeremiah or Agabus did. When a man or woman says "I believe", it in no way implies "thus saith the Lord"; if it did, we'd all be in big trouble! You included! All of us would be the Lord's prophets whether we realized it or not. Besides, I don't think we understand the true ministry of a prophet. To most people, when they hear "prophet" they immediately think of a type of Christian Nostradamus. Not so! This doesn't even scratch the surface. Leonard Ravenhill has written a powerful little article on what defines a true prophet of God, entitled "Picture of a Prophet." In light of this article, I seriously venture to say that no regular visitor and contributer to these formus (or on any internet forum for that matter) is a real, bonafide prophet of God in the Biblical sense. I know I'm going to challenged on that last statement, but I'll hold my ground. Seriously - do you ever wonder why men like Keith Daniel and Dave Wilkerson and Zac Poonen are never seen participating in internet forums and debating and posting their theology and preaching?

This is really something to think about.

Brother Paul :-)

Corey,

Think that may be overstating it quite a bit. It is certainly one thing to pronounce "Thus sayeth the Lord" and then go on to speak presumptuously, (trust me, I have a very large issue with this whole matter)and that which might be formulative.

What Greg is saying isn't necessarily 'prophetically' speaking, nor would Ravenhill's be either. You do not have to fancy yourself a prophet to make an observation.

Think Robertson would be better off reading The Farmers Almanac for weather patterns and the like, they have a better track record.

To get a proper perspective on the office of a prophet, I decided to go ahead and post this. Brother Corey, if you haven't read this yet, please do. May the Lord bless your time of reading!

[b]Picture of a Prophet[/b]
by Leonard Ravenhill

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, "No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected." The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his "brand name."

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him "Man of the year" when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!

The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, "has almost always been that of recovery."

The prophet is God's detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him.
He has no price tags.
He is totally "otherworldly."
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a "seer" who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a "thus saith
the Lord."
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of
impending judgment.
He lives in "splendid isolation."
He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.
His message is "repent, be reconciled to God or else...!"
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!
He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with
epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few "make the grade" in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint
by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of
Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!
He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in
the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.

Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!

I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the "seven years of plenty" are over for us. The "seven years of famine" are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. "Come-outers" have "come out" and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

GOD'S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.

There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.

Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and
stagnant "churchianity."
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, "This ONE thing I do."
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous,
nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move
men to God.
Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has
received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the
clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision
no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the
wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where
enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.

God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!

Dear Corey,

I still wish he hadn't said that thing about America going down in the 80s... Better for a man of God to remain silent than be wrong in a [b]prediction[/b].

Brother, this is what you qouted before...

Leonard Ravenhill said in an mp3 sermon (circa 1980) [u]he expected[/u] the destruction of America within a year or two.

But, did he say that God had revealed this to him(that is did he speak in the name of the Lord)? If not, then is it really right to make this statement concerning Ravenhill...

If Ravenhill and Robertson were alive in the times of Moses and Aaron, they would be STONED FOR BEING WRONG!

Dear brother Corey, this is a very weighty matter, even to mention like this. Look at Deuteronomy 19:15-19, for instance. And especially concerning our brother Greg. I just do not see anything in his statement that I would or did, understand as prophesy. I believe I would have certainly taken notice if he had put it in those terms.

Please consider this, and take a look at passage also.

Thank you for considering this,

Chris

Hi Greg.Welcome to Victoria! Put on your armor, open your heart and be blessed in the battle with us.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this thread:

Two neglected emphases in Biblical Prophecy that seem to be relegated to the backseat so to speak:

In my opinion of course:

One dimension of biblical, Spirit inspired prophecy: Proclaiming and explaining the mind and heart of God:

The predictive element of prophecy has been over-emphasized. We comment more on the state of affairs of a nation, or the church rather than emphasizing how God feels:

His pleasure or displeasure concerning the state of His people or plight of those who remain outside of His salvation:

His gracious call to restoration and renewal in the light of His warnings and confrontation to provoke repentance.

The persistent pleadings from His heart for men and women and children to test Him and embrace His promises with decisions of the will:

In the Bible: true predictive prophecy springs forth in the context of God revealing and confirming the character traits of who He is and how He will act in consistency with His character: while also confirming the veracity of His Word to be trusted and acted upon. In other words: A future event foretold in order to call us to trust Him today, and remain in hope for tomorrow with a balanced expectation.

However, men such as Carter Conlon and David Wilkerson due exercise prophecy in this manner on a consistent basis and from a biblical, doctrinally sound foundation.Perhaps all of you know of others who fit this pattern.

The other neglected element of the domain of a prophet called by God and gifted by His Spirit:

Placing false or aberrant teaching and practices alongside the plumbline of the truths of God's Word.

Recognizing and identifying the trends of apostasy while confirming and encouraging individuals to remain in the truths:
Alert to Apostasy as one part of Abiding in Truth and Abounding in Love: (Of course all through being dead to self and alive in Christ)

Setting aside the false and alerting others to the consequences: While feeding on and fulfilling thr truth:

A Thanksgiving Day Example might Help:

Taking great pains to wash and prepare the bird being aware of the reality of salmonella poisoning:

But then having great pleasure in preparing and cooking and serving the deleicious bird to those gathered:

Eating a full portion of the turkey and fixings:

But then going out and exercising afterwards:

And then being available to restore and minister to those who neglected the warnings in the food preparation and now have food poisoning.

In this context, we can then be zealous to warn, point out and reject those who would promote and sell rotting turkeys.

So a ministry that promotes taking joy in the real thing:

Heed the warnings but not to the neglect of loving and living the truth. And remain heartbroken for those who resist the warnings.

Roger Oakland of UnderStand The Times Intl.
http://www.understandthetimes.org/
is a notable example of a person who engages in this type of ministry.

Again, you may know of others.

Thanks for anytime spent in consideration or response to these thoughts.

Couple things to rember or note.

I still wish he hadn't said that thing about America going down in the 80s

Note Adam died but in a way that wasn't observable to the eyes. Maybe Ravenhill was right? I think it is RAHMAN who has done extension research on American economy and the overthrow of America. It might be useful to pm' him and ask for the threads he posted on that.

Pretty meaty.

Thank you. :-)

In my opinion of course:

One dimension of biblical, Spirit inspired prophecy: Proclaiming and explaining the mind and heart of God:

The predictive element of prophecy has been over-emphasized. We comment more on the state of affairs of a nation, or the church rather than emphasizing how God feels:

His pleasure or displeasure concerning the state of His people or plight of those who remain outside of His salvation:

His gracious call to restoration and renewal in the light of His warnings and confrontation to provoke repentance.

Welcome Pastor! If I may return the greetings.
:-)

Very well said. If I recall correctly David Wilkerson would state that he saw himself more of a 'watchman' than a 'prophet'. We have had quite a few discussions on what constitutes a prophet in our day and generally it seems the lines have become quite blurred in many minds.

A prime example would be someone like A.W. Tozer. A prophet in our day (In my opinion) defined by your first definition and yet completely bereft of any manner of predicting or forth telling of coming 'event's', at least the sort that are of a "Thus sayeth the Lord" or "The Lord is telling me ..." style.

He most certainly defined exactly where we are today and saw it coming.

bro Loveroftruth
welcome to S.I! i thank God for your post because it confirms what our Lord had been showing me about prophethood (an office to which i believe i'm called) which i'd been trying to share of late. indeed most people immediately assume that a prophet is one who predicts the future but that is like you said a small part of it. i look at the prophets in the O.T. and we can take for example Samuel. Samuel didn't say much about the future, he dealt with the present mainly. Elijah and Elisha also dealt more with the present than the future. if you read the books of the prophets you find out that much of what is written is the very heart of God being poured out through the prophet to Israel concerning her behaviour. SOmetimes the prophet is told what God will do in response to Israel's behaviour or even the behaviour of the nations around her, like Isaiah, Jeremiah etc. Another thing about the prophets is that they were aware of what was going on around them. Jeremiah was at the king's court so he had knowledge of international affairs for example. the amazing thing is that they saw these things in the context of what God was doing and what He was planning to do to Israel. we can take daniel also for example. He lived long enough to see the medes and the persians take over babylon. He knew well enough (being one of high rank in babylonia) what trouble was brewing with the growing power of the medes and persians. He saw it in the context of what God was doing as he started to see the vision he was shown come to pass.

His gracious call to restoration and renewal in the light of His warnings and confrontation to provoke repentance.

true, although the message of restoration may not come immediately after the warning of judgment/call to repentance. Ezekiel spent about 7 yrs, the first 7 years of his ministry preaching nothing but judgment with only one mention of restoration, a brief one i might add before God turned him loose with the message of restoration and reconciliation. this is subject to the will of God Himself who picks and chooses what message to send when and through whom.

i was blessed by your post :-D

bro Crsschk

Very well said. If I recall correctly David Wilkerson would state that he saw himself more of a 'watchman' than a 'prophet'. We have had quite a few discussions on what constitutes a prophet in our day and generally it seems the lines have become quite blurred in many minds.

i take it you think this post helps clear things up a bit? ;-) :-P

A prime example would be someone like A.W. Tozer. A prophet in our day (In my opinion) defined by your first definition and yet completely bereft of any manner of predicting or forth telling of coming 'event's', at least the sort that are of a "Thus sayeth the Lord" or "The Lord is telling me ..." style.

kinda like samuel? i guess once again this underscores that the predictive aspect of being a prophet is what is more commonly known about, in contrast to the bigger picture which really is the pouring out of the heart of God and how He feels about His people and their circumstances.

IRONMAN and Crsschk:
Thanks for the good words and welcome!

IRONMAN: glad I confirmed and stimulated the further pursuit of God Himself as you contunue in that calling!

The blessing will be the privilege of helping others draw near to God and overcome any hurdles of unbelief or discouragement that may have stood in the way.

Speaking of "Overcoming".

You might find more fuel for the fire in the Letters to the Churches in Rev. 2-3.

As Revelation is explicitly identified as a prophecy Rev.1:3

I am blessed to see Jesus faithfully in the midst of the Church He Himself is still building.
In one sense He speaks as the truest prophet to the leaders, the church as a whole and any individual who will hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches as the One communicating to us and empowering us to carry out the interests of Christ in cooperation with Him.

Some have looked at these Churches through the "predictive" lense element of prophecy and seen the various church ages throughout history.

While cool and novel and edifying to some degree, I myself do not find warrant for that in the Scripture itself.

But here is what I do see. These are words of prophecy as Jesus speaks to His Church:

As He seeks to confirm the good,strenghten some to continue in spite of opposition, distraction and persecution:

and take strong personal issue(out of love) for the wrong and yet again provide for means of restoral, renewal and revival as He calls for repentance.

He also warns of judgment and intensive discipline that He will undertake if His Words are eventually not heeded.

The predictive element of prophecy I believe is present with the events that unfold in Rev. 4.

The beauty is that Christ holds out promises in each letter for the one who "overcomes". I believe these promises are tied to the glory that will be revealed in the future events that unfold later.

The blessing is that it allows God's people to sense His active presence in a very real and tangible, yet Biblical and faith filled way.

Keeping it simple here, because I think that anyone can be encouraged by this means of interpretation no matter their view of eschatology/end times even though I hold to a Pre-Mil/Pre-Trib perspective of living out my faith.

Blessings to you,

crsschk wrote:
Very well said. If I recall correctly David Wilkerson would state that he saw himself more of a 'watchman' than a 'prophet'. We have had quite a few discussions on what constitutes a prophet in our day and generally it seems the lines have become quite blurred in many minds.

When Wilkerson was in Australia, he preached a sermon based on John the Baptist's words, "Are you the one to one, or should we expect another?" In it, he mentioned how he has often gone to God, weeping saying, "Should I retract what I have said?" His thoughts were on all those who could have benefited from property booms, when he had exhorted everyone to "get out of debt", based on what he believed that God was saying.

True, Wilkerson refers to himself as a watchman, but he always adds, "...one of many." The other thing that is very important to recognise is that a prophet would always have to bear the agonising burden of the possibility of "getting it wrong", and yet be required to obey the Lord's prompting, as an act of faith. After all, "that which is not of faith is sin".

Ravenhill was wise to comment on his belief that America would be destroyed. Bear in mind that his catch cry was often, "If God doesn't judge America, then he will have to apologise to Sodom and Gomorrah." He'd also say things like, "What makes you think that you are exempt while nations like Russia and China suffer?"

A lot of what is being considered to be "prognosticating" was more of reactionary statements to widespread belief in a "pretrib rapture", which Ravenhill heavily objected against.

As a side, often people object to people "claiming to be prophets", and rightly so. Pontifical characters like Robertson, are dangerous in one sense, and ridiculous in another (this is why they are often "ridiculed". Ravenhill never referred to himself as a prophet. Tozer did (in the foreword to "Why Revival Tarries"). And remember, back in those days, "prophet" was used to describe the one who brought the "hard word".

However, there is another kind of "prophet". This is the one who reads prophetic Scripture, and sees the "cause and effect" statements, realising that the "cause" is happening now, and so God could not, in good conscience, hold back the "effect" indefinitely. Upon seeing this, they are "compelled to warn" others of what they see.

Brothers like Art Katz, Wilkerson, Reidhead, and Ravenhill, for example, would come under this category. I have heard Art (of these the only one that allows himself to be called a prophet) often say of how he would give a statement, and how one would come accusing him of "bringing shame to the character of God", by his statements, to which he says, "The heck of it all is that they may be right. But the prophetic tension is that to be silent would be a greater offence, and the risk of bringing shame to God's name and incalculable damage to the church will not be fully know until the Day of Judgement."

We try to distill things down into pretty principles that keep us safe. Funny, I believe that is what Eve tried in the garden, by adding the words "..neither shall you touch it.." to God's command to not eat of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It didn't work for her, and yet somehow we believe that it will for us, and meanwhile massive sects and heresies spring from these "safety blanket additions".

God help us, if we cannot come to the simplicity of Christ and obey what has been said, and what [b]is[/b] being said without question. Don't forget, it was only Moses who talked with God "face to face". Every other would have had reason to question that God was speaking to them, all the while aware that failure in even one point meant death...and yet they obeyed, and didn't [b]play it safe[/b]. Thank God they did.

Difficult to place this being two simultaneous posts of the same matter up ...

I am convinced that our great error in this day and if there is anything at all prophetic necessary it is this;

[i]Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts[/i]:
Psa 51:6

bro Loveroftruth
Good word!

IRONMAN: glad I confirmed and stimulated the further pursuit of God Himself as you contunue in that calling!

AMEN.

The blessing will be the privilege of helping others draw near to God and overcome any hurdles of unbelief or discouragement that may have stood in the way.

yes indeed, this is a big thing, it's not about us but about our Lord and His glory.

I am blessed to see Jesus faithfully in the midst of the Church He Himself is still building.In one sense He speaks as the truest prophet to the leaders, the church as a whole and any individual who will hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches as the One communicating to us and empowering us to carry out the interests of Christ in cooperation with Him.

indeed Christ is the Chief Prophet and Apostle and High Priest of Faith. indeed He speaks to those who have ears and hear what the Spirit is saying...will we listen or be like Israel in times past and harden our hearts?

Some have looked at these Churches through the "predictive" lense element of prophecy and seen the various church ages throughout history.

While cool and novel and edifying to some degree, I myself do not find warrant for that in the Scripture itself.

it seems to me these Churches existed then and throughout the ages till now in that the prevailing Spirit in the Churches can be seen in believers in different places. There are those like laodicea with much wealth but yet lukewarm, those like Ephesus who have toiled much and toil still, but have left their first love, then those like Smyrna and Philadelphia which suffer. ultimately the bottom line is we have to hear what the Spirit is saying to us. Are there things we need to repent of? have we left our first love etc. which you summed up perfectly here.

As He seeks to confirm the good,strenghten some to continue in spite of opposition, distraction and persecution:
and take strong personal issue(out of love) for the wrong and yet again provide for means of restoral, renewal and revival as He calls for repentance.

He also warns of judgment and intensive discipline that He will undertake if His Words are eventually not heeded.

This is the very heart of God being poured out through JOhn concerning His Church and this is prophecy in it's truest sense i believe.

The beauty is that Christ holds out promises in each letter for the one who "overcomes". I believe these promises are tied to the glory that will be revealed in the future events that unfold later.

AMEN!

Keeping it simple here, because I think that anyone can be encouraged by this means of interpretation no matter their view of eschatology/end times even though I hold to a Pre-Mil/Pre-Trib perspective of living out my faith.

and that's the bottom line. i don't ascribe to pre-trib rapture, i'm a pan-tribber, it'll all pan out. 8-) i feel that as per the letters to the Churches, there is a time in which we the Church must be purged if we are to be rapture ready so to me GOd may do this pre-trib, through the first half of the trib, or through the whole trib. the bottom line to me is God's grace is sufficient whether one is pre,mid or post trib.

like the word said and you repeated, let he that has ears hear what the Spirit is saying...