Purpose Driven Church or the Church of Jesus Christ?

The other night simply out of curiousity I browsed through the now "classic" book "Purpose Driven Church" by Rick Warren. (also author of purpose driven life) As I thumbed through its pages I saw things that were good and Biblical, however I also read somethings that disturbed me to the core of my being. As I browsed over the chapter on designing a seeker sensitive service, my heart sunk. Now before I continue I must say that I am not condemning Warren as a heretic or denying him salvation, nor am I denying that he is called of God.I was greatly disturbed as I read detailed instructions on how to make our services more palletable (sp?) for unbelievers or "seekers". I read that music should be upbeat and lively. We should open our services with a loud and celebratory type of song. From there do two or three more happy upbeat songs. Then we should slow things down and make them a bit more meditative, however we should avoid songs in minor keys. Songs should not be heavy or depressing. And then we should end on another upbeat happy song.Now have I had it wrong all these years brothers and sisters? After all these years am I to find out that worship is all about me and my tastes and my cultural predispositions and my happiness and comfort? NO! Worship is about Jesus, plain and simple. Worship is not about me or my taste. Nor is it about making me feel good. I think that today we are so enamored with songs such as "I'm trading my sorrows". (which is a good song) , that we pass over other perfectly good, Biblical, and usable Choruses. Oh, I remeber a little number that James wrote a few years back."Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieive mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up."And then from there we could flow right into Trading My Sorrows, right? (sarcasm is being laid on heavy in case you're not picking it up):)We love to right sungs pertaining to scriptures such as, "Thou Hast put off my saccloth and girded me with gladness."But we forget that there was sackcloth being worn prior to the infilling of joy. Meaning simply there was deep, bitter, and heartfelt repentance first. Why is it that we are always so concerned with making sure everything is light and fluffy? Why are we so concerned about everyone being happy all the time? I doubt that there were many smiling faces amongst the religious crowd the day Jesus drove out the money changers. I doubt to many left with a spring in their steps at that memorable service when Annanias and Sapphira fell dead. As I continued browsing the book, I came upon another section encouraging pastors to lighten up the sanctuary. I read that all the bulbs in our sanctuary should be replaced with ones of a higher wattage and then watch the change that occurs in the people. That paragraph ends with, "You may just have a REVIVAL (caps mine) on your hands."Once again I see that perhaps I've been doing things wrong. Prayer, fastings, solemn assemblies, tears, repentance, intercession and all these things aren't nearly as important as brighter light bulbs. Revival doesn't need to come through painful intercession and deep crying to deep, we just need to brighten things up a bit. (once again sarcasm being laid on thick) Friends, light bulbs may cost you a few dollars, but the Fire of God, the real answer, will cost you everything you have.I could go on with venting my disagreements but for the sake of space and time I will conclude. Friends it is my proposal that these methods of "church growth" are anything but Biblical. These are simply the same principles one might use to grow a business etc... It does not take an anointing from heaven to gather a crowd when there are light shows, multi-media presentations, good music, a friendly atmosphere, encouraging words, and coffee and donuts. (Not that there are anything wrong with these things in and of themselves. Especially encouraging words, and coffee and donuts :))Friends this philosophy of seeker-sensitive ministry, I propose, must be rejected. I do not see that it is the Biblical blue-print for the church of Jesus Christ. I do believe we could grow an organization, build a following, draw a crowd with these methods. But I do not believe it is building the Church of Jesus Christ.Burning,Jeff

Thank you, Jeff! I was considering taking some classes at our Cincinatti bible College. One of the major classes that you must take for a "leadership and ministry" degree - is the Purpose Driven Church course. I was taken back by this. It is all methods and formulas now. No more praying and seeking the Lord in what to preach or what to sing or what to do. Soon the churches will be pretty much all the same.For some reason this reminds me of my German friend who says that most churches in Germany are Govt. churches (all the same)and now lately there are only a few "free" or independant churches that are on fire for God.Scary!In Him, Chanin

Hello Jeff,Your post is very interesting including the funny bits! Although I hav'nt read the book right through I think I can see your points.Can I possibly move the thread on further? It seems in this day that to be popular or have a trendy up beat reputation as a church is important to some.To justify the use of modern 'techniques' shall we say,is "we want to be all things to all men" thus appealing to 21st century man etc, etc. However can we look at some scripture1, The early church certainly had a particular reputation! see Acts 5 v12-142,one of the marks of a new cvenant church if you like is,(and I stress only ONE mark or proof)By this shall all men Know that ye are my diciples,if ye have LOVE one to another John 13v5There are many other instructions and answers in scripture which tell us how WE, the church should be when gathered together.When His Love has been shed abroard in our hearts surely this will affect visitors or seekers in our meeting together.Of course there are great methods which have God's approval and we must use all resourses available,but not to the detriment of the church.thanks for your thought provoking post jefflooking ahead & upDerek

I had to read this book as an assignment. I now hate this book. This is a self help book. The author deliberately uses the Holy Scripture our of context to prove his agenda. I can trust someone who may not fully understand what he is teaching. We are all being worked on by God. Yet the intent of this author is to deceive. Beware of the leven of the Pharisees!In Christ Jeff

Beloved,Lets face it, when the Church is backslidden and the people are not bringing in the sheaves from the whited harvest, the tendency is to stay the hand of the fanner (Christ). It is a vicious cycle that begins when the message is weak and the lives of the saints build up with chaff. They feel no desire to evangelize because their life is filled with compromise. And then chaff begets chaff! The whole threshing floor is broken. I refer everyone to Charles Finney's message GOD CANNOT PLEASE SINNERS. If a sinner will not repent he in his HEART will enjoy a message from a lukewarm preacher BUT his CONSCIENCE will condemn it AND the minister. An impenitent sinner is at WAR with themself. A service that panders to the impenitent heart is rejected by the persons conscience and a message that reveals sin and exalts holiness will be rejected by their impenitent heart. YOU CANNOT PLEASE AN IMPINETENT SINNER. It is impossible. Not to mention the anathema that comes upon those who ALTER the gospel message (Galatians 1). WHY do people tamper with God's message? If something does not soon change it will not be the CHURCH it will be the CHAFF. As soon as I get the info back on posting a sermon I will be posting a message titled "RAT POISON" that speaks to all this mess. I pray the admin will get me up and running soon.God Bless and Much Brotherly Love in Christ,-Robert

I just got back from our local Christian bookstore.Maybe I am wrong for thinking so critically but the walls and rows and windows were covered with Purpose Driven everything. Journals, hats, devotionals, etc...Along with this are the other 'Top" selling books- including this new one for women- "Finding the DIVA in YOU."I wish that they would at least give just as much 'marketing space" to those wonderful old classics like Andrew Murray, Hudson Taylor, John Bunyan.A few years ago, as a lukewarm Christian myself- I had no idea who these classic writers were. I only knew what was "popular".I can honestly say that if I were back where I was a few years ago, and I had read The Purpose Driven life back then- I would still be a lukewarm Christian. The reason? Because what got me out of my lukewarmness was 'Surrender and Obedience".I could do all of those things in the book and "look better' to everyone else- but still not have Christ as king on the throne of my heart 100%.In His book and in His "salvation prayer" it does not mention surrendering everything that we once held important- over to Him. And this is Christianity.Committing yourself to Christ- is not the same as surrendering yourself to Christ- becoming a slave for Him. Here is the prayer he suggests:"Wherever you are reading this, I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: "Jesus, I believe in you and I recieve you." Go ahead. If you sincerely meant that prayer, Congratulations! Welcome to the family of God!."Where is the repentance or the surrender? All we can pray for is that those who are positively effected by the book- will also be brought to "fullness in Christ" by having meat included or as desert after reading the book. :)If I was a non christian, I could see that this might draw me to a christian life because at least I see I am worth something. So this is the positive thing I see.In Him, Chanin

Chanin,I do agree with you on this point. As you well know, I am rather positive towards The Purpose-Driven Church / Life. However, I cannot say the same about the affiliated products. The same applies to other Christian brand names.Now, I could pardon VeggieTales because it is targeted to kids (and I luv 'em too, especially Larry the Cucumber *smile*).However, we've also got "Purpose-Driven whatever", "Experiencing God whatever", "The Prayer of Jabez whatever", etc. A full line of associated products!I think that's a bit too much. They've really overdone it.Sam

A book that looks good (I judge this by the author and the description) is out by John MacArthur:US:http://store.yahoo.com/grace-to-you/hartobel2.htmlEurope:http://shopping.gty.org.uk/mljgty/gtycart.nsf/(ProductsByCode)/K4511472

Hope this thread is still live. I haven't read PDCbut am not a fan of the concept of seeker sensitive meetings. I met some people who were Willowcreek fanatics and they invited us to an evening meal. The idea was that we would "model" the Christian life but we must not openly talk about my faith. It was such a waste of time as you could not just be youeself and confess Christ.The Alpha course by Nicky Gumble is in similar vein and the problem is that people "drift" into a religious knowledge of Christ rather than a repentance and translation form darkness to light. That being said Jesus is victor and when He is sought He is found, so many do find Him despite the nonsense of mens ideas.If you havent heard Gary Wilkersons testimony of how he tried all these new methods, and his eventual realisation that his dads simple "get in the prayer closet" was all that was required, you should try and get to hear him. He even does a credible take off of Nicky Gumble accent, bought himself some flashy shirts to be like Bill Hybels etc. Its a great testimony for all of us who at some stage looked for the quick fix.

Paulus, I think you are a little hard on Nicky Gumbel, I have done Alpha twice and it is a great introduction to the Christian faith. Very early on he states that we must repent of everything we know we've done wrong. At the end of some meetings he asks people to pray a certain prayer which is not a/the "sinners pray" which is supposed to guarantee forgiveness to everyone who utters it but merley says something like "if you want to start a relationship with God then please speak these words in your mind".

I purchased Hard to Believe by MacArthur two days ago and read it through the same day. Very good book, but not a lot of new ideas from people who keep up with MacArthur as I do. The main portion that I really liked was the discussion of how ridiculous the Gospel seemed to Jews and Greeks at the time of the apostles and how crucifixion was viewed at that time by the different groups of people. He also tears into the seeker-sensitive group right along with the health and wealth people as they have much in common. One is concerned about what God can do for their wallet while the other is concerned about what He can do for their self-esteem and felt needs. I found the book very challenging, as I often do when MacArthur is the author, and it really pushed me to question myself as to whether I'm following wholeheartedly enough. He really beats you up on how your fruit looks and reminds you of the cursed fig tree. Finally, he really nails the issue of spreading the gospel well. It is just plain and simple fact that anyone who preaches that a crucified Jew 2000 years ago was God and is the only way to heaven is going to run into opposition and humiliation. You will look like a fool and maybe tear your family apart. The fact is that you have to go at it like a fanatic anyway or risk hell. Anyone concerned about how they look in another's eyes isn't fit. If you die of embarassment when people laugh at you you'd better get over it. The whole seeker-friendly movement is based on trying to be able to bring people to Christ without any embarassment, grief, or confrontation. If God wanted that He'd have made the story easy to swallow and more inclusive. The Gospel message is a little offensive for a reason.He also throws in a good Calvinist quote: "Sometimes we don't preach the Gospel well enough for the non-elect to reject it." AMEN.

Well I am with you here Nobody.Been familiar with John MacArthur for quite a few years now. Can still remember thinking that he was 'harsh' early on, but that was because he was challenging me. Of course I was later to find here a gentleman by the name of Leonard Ravenhill and...Definetly a throw back to what is the norm nowadays. Did you catch the interview a few weeks back with Phil Johnson? Missed a lot of it but the bit's I caught were really good, re: his testimony, the auto accident (yikes!) and so forth.He has been a mentor to me and a great help in pulling me out of the whole prosperity/wof stuff 4 or 5 years ago.

crsschk wrote:Been familiar with John MacArthur for quite a few years now. Can still remember thinking that he was 'harsh' early on, but that was because he was challenging me.There is a more perfect way. One man can challenge another can condemn, but it is by the Holy Spirit that one lives. Many unknowingly preach the law and live under the law. Their flocks suffer as the Jews did when they realized that the Holy Scripture did not tell them how to make the Sabbath holy. Know His voice.In ChristJeff

11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.Don't give me nebulous rambling statements about following God rather than His gifted men. The Holy Spirit does help one discern truth and interpret, but never in Scripture are we told that this replaces or supercedes studying the Word. We are to teach if gifted in that way and always to be teachable. Those who are taught by the "rhema" straight from God and leave the "logos" on the shelf are the most worthless undiscerning foolish Christians I've ever met. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.Here's my nebulous ambiguity in reply. Many unknowingly preach cheap grace and need to smacked upside the head with the truth that James taught. Fruitless fig trees will be cursed. Faith is shown in works.

Tell me how to obey this precept. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it." Those who follow His voice will lose this life. He will forsake all to follow Christ. Only He can teach you. The parables of the Holy Scripture will become your life. The written word must be the foundation. But who believes? In ChristJeff

Nobody wrote:Don't give me nebulous rambling statements about following God rather than His gifted men. The Holy Spirit does help one discern truth and interpret, but never in Scripture are we told that this replaces or supercedes studying the Word.Do these gifted men believe the Word? Do they believe:"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are." 1 Corinthians 3:17"Therefore brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die..." Romans 8:12-13"For is is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance...Hebrews 6:4-6"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turned a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death...James 5:19-20Do these men believe what these verses say?How about this;"Or do you think that the Scriptures says in vain, The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously?"Do these men believe what this verse says? Do they teach the significance of this? The Holy Spirit indwelled the OT saints too. Do these men teach that Christ's work is predestined not man?Do these men teach that we are reconciled to God by His death, much more we are saved by His life. Roman 5:11Do these men teach that two covenants exit now? The Law that condemns and the Law of Faith. What do they teach about faith? What gospel do they preach?No one is good but God. Maybe I am nebulous. Paul always prayed for the church that they would know the depts of God's love for them. He could never explain with words His relationship with Jesus. In ChristJeff

Why bother gifting men as teachers if no one is better off by listening to them?Just because many have erroneous views doesn't mean you throw everyone out. The Bereans double-checked everything but were still eager to be taught by a man. They were commended for that and therefore made an example of how we should be. If we were supernaturally filled with all the knowledge we needed there wouldn't be a Word and a command to study it.

Men are called to preach the word. My question is why are they afraid too? The Holy Scriptures teach us that there have been faithful and faithless generations. Jesus said that when He comes back it will be like the times of Noah. Jeremiah or Isaiah wrote that the shepherds of their time healed the people superficially. We have shepherds today that deny the words of Jesus. We have men who use the word deliberately out of context to prove their law. The Purpose Driven Book is a prime example. Good fruit does not come from a rotten tree.I am sorry if I offend some or many, I can't stop from preaching. I can only teach as I have been taught. As a berean, ask the Holy Spirit to show you in Scripture. Look for the Life, I can't make anyone understand. Only He can. My understanding is insufficient. But this is the path that I am on. In ChristJeff

Jeff wrote"Look for the Life, I can't make anyone understand. Only He can. My understanding is insufficient. But this is the path that I am on."Jesus said,“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may HAVE ETERNAL LIFE? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt ENTER INTO LIFE, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:16,17).Yet, Paul said,“… for if there had been a law given which could have GIVEN LIFE, verily righteousness should have been by the law” (Galatians 3:21b).Was Paul contradicting Jesus? “Weary millions tramp about in a no-man’s land of religious frustration and defeat, professing for doctrines realities which they never have experienced, while legalisms abound in the very name of grace. I came back with such a cry from a recent overseas trip that the Gospel, the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ needs to be proclaimed, not so much to the world as, first, to the Church. It is amazing how few Christians know it; how few understand it; how few have been affected by it; how few are living in it; how many who call themselves “Christians” enjoying the benefits, so-called, of the New Covenant are living essential Old Covenant lives, bound and under the law, … ‘God gave His only-begotten Son, full of grace,’ and how many of us have yet to taste that grace. Legalisms abound in a no-man’s land of religious frustration and defeat. Weary millions profess for doctrines realities which they never have experienced. “You have to excuse me for being a simple believer and a naive man, but I just have a respect for words, and had it even as an atheist. How much more then as a believer. That the things that we speak ought to be true or we ought not to say them. I’ll tell you that every glib and facile easy kind of speaking is going to cost us plenty in our own spirit and life, for the Sprit of God is first and pre-eminently the Spirit of Truth before He is any other thing.” Art Katz, “And They Crucified Him” (available here at Sermonindex in both audio and transcription)Roger