What should women teach?

I feel that we came a long way in the “Women are not to teach men” thread, but a great deal of related Biblical truth had not yet been touched; or maybe it got obscured in the smoke.

Of course we ALL know Paul’s famous words: “I forbid women to teach men.” from 1 Timothy. But there are many references we do not know nearly as well. ex: “…teach older women to …. TEACH what is good.” Titus 2:3 Since we haven’t progressed to that reality, there has been a tendency towards knee-jerk reactions: a gender war, a long string of defenses by either gender, or a false sense of relief: “Phew, we women don’t need to teach. So I won’t bother assertively learning the things of God.” However, these attitudes are lethal to the church and to our families.

I believe that Paul’s exhortation will never be understood as long as we think like the world. For example: how does the world view authority? - more like dominance and forced servitude. The world “fixes” threatening people groups by squelching them – including their autonomy and their freedoms. You dominate them in order to keep them in their “place” (ie to keep YOUSELF on top) That is the way of international politics. So it should not be surprising that such a philosophy trickles down to the smaller units of relationship – like gender relationships, parent-child relationships, and of course, playground dynamics.

Here are two more problems caused by viewing scripture from a worldly frame of mind, or by failing to consider the WHOLE counsel of the Word:

The ones in authority tell their subordinates what they are NOT allowed to do, but they fail to TEACH them what they ARE to do. Correction is achieved by pushing down from above. Really, this just makes things worse. The subdued ones then feel a need to employ all their energies in order to rise above their “oppressors”. You end up with a lot of revenge and conflict and power struggles. This I believe explains such movements as Women’s Lib, Free Choice, Equal Rights, etc etc.

There also seems to be a faulty understanding of the relationship between teaching and hierarchy – as if teaching puts you a notch above someone. That is also the worldly way. And it is deadly too. I know of some churches where women were not to speak or teach in the presence of men. I never saw such dysfunctional organizations. Abuse was going on, unchecked. Men were hiding their sins of adultery and wife-abuse. Women had no voice, and if they spoke out they were merely told they were “unforgiving” and “unsubmissive”. I know a few marriages that fell apart because of Biblical misuse of Paul’s teachings on gender roles. You see, without considering the WHOLE counsel of God, we go off the rails. When we apply any biblical law to an unregenerate or worldly mindset we have a formula for disaster. We will NEVER get it to work right, even if we follow it to the letter of the law.

If we don’t understand the Biblical perspective of authority and teaching, we certainly can’t understand much of Paul’s teachings re gender responsibilities or any Biblical teaching, for that matter. It all starts with our orientation to the authority of God, his Son, and his Spirit.

Before proceeding, I’d like to include Paul’s words to Titus:

“But avoid foolish controversies and… arguments, and quarrels ABOUT THE LAW, because these are unprofitable and useless. “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that...:-? ” Titus 3:9

First things first, what does God teach about our submission to HIM?

Diane

Hi Diane,

In considering your question I would find it helpful to understand these two verses from Paul.

Philippians 2:22
But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.

Philippians 4:3
...and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Blessings,

MC

Some thoughts to ponder:

Philippians 2:22
But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.

Philippians 4:3
...and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Here we see a clearly defined common purpose, common to Paul, Timothy, and “these women”:

"work of the gospel."
"the cause of the gospel"

Where else does Paul speak about the work (or cause) of the Gospel?

What do these two references say about the dynamics of relationships in the fulfilment of this “cause” contending at my side.... serve with me ..?

Diane

contending at my side.

How can men and women best "contend together" for the cause of the Gospel?

Other translations: "labor with me",
"struggle with me" (KJV)
"labored side by side with me"....
Strongs: "To wrestle in company with, strive together for, to seek jointly...."

Clearly, we'll never get anywhere without the same goal. What is it that REALLY causes divisions in the gender matters? Can that be possible if all have [the same goal]?

IMPORTANT EDIT: ... the RIGHT goal. (It is possible to be united in the wrong goal)

Diane

Here is of a prophetess named Anna:
Luke 2:36: And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Luke 2:37: And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luke 2:38: And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Above verses are taken out of the King James Bible.
The following taken out of Matthew Henry's Commentary: "She, as a prophetess, instructed others concerning him: She spoke of him to all them that believed the Messiah would come, and with him looked for redemption in Jerusalem. Some there were in Jerusalem that looked for redemption; yet but a few, for Anna, it should seem, had acquaintance with all. She knew where to find them, or they where to find her, and she told them all the good news, that she had seen the Lord. Those that have an acquaintance with Christ themselves should do all they can to bring others acquainted with him."
The Lord Christ Jesus perfect you in His Love,
richie

What should women teach?

For me personally anything that will help make me a better person Physically or Mentally. :-)

What should women teach?

For me personally anything that will help make me a better person Physically or Mentally

MrBillPro, Of course, in this thread context it would have to be established that by "better" you mean, grow in godliness. There are plenty references that would support your point. ex:"Consider others better than yorself"

Perhaps you can think of some references that would help us understand what exactly would be edifying, and would shed light on the women's place in the body, as it relates to teaching and the Gospel.

Diane

Well if I had a woman teach me how to Pray "like in Jesus name" if I did not know, would that be edifying or grow in godliness?

This post has taken me back 15 yrs., where this ole' preacher had 3 very godly sisters who went faithfully out on the streets with the whole group (8-12 people) and contended together with us for the sake of the gospel, and they were very effective and along with the scriptures they have been instrument in molding my views on women in ministry. I praise God for it, I believe it has helped make me a more balanced christian.

In the other thread Ginnyrose (I think) said something like this “Instead of focusing on what we can’t do, try to discover what we CAN do”…. or was that “what we SHOULD do”

Here’s my attempt:

As I read through the “T” epistles (Thes/Tim/Titus), certain truths leap from the page: qualities that deeply influence our effectiveness as servants of Christ, regardless of gender. In fact, without these qualities all of our words, our teachings and our preachings, have no weight. Before considering the issue of teaching in the church, these factors must first be taken into account:

1.\tCharacter
2.\tWorks
3.\tRelationships
4.\tReputation

Character:
“You became imitators of us 1 thes. 1:6
you became a model to the believers…” 1 Thes.1:7
“We … not… impure motives… trick, greed… please men.. flattery…1 Thes.1:3,4“…

Works:
Your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.”
“…we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.” 2 Thes. 3:8

Relationships:
“We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with your not only the Gospel of God, but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us.” 1 Thes.1:8
“…. Gentle, like a mother caring for her little children” (the value of a maternal quality)
“intense longing ….. to see you.” 1 thes.2:17
“… encourage one another, and build each other up … “ 1 Thes. 5:11

Reputation:
“Your faith in God has become known everywhere .” 1 Thes.1:8
“Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands… so that your daily life may win the respect of others…”

….and much more! It looks like a fair bulk of Apostolic teaching focuses on the conduct of our lives – qualities that are expected of all believers. There are also specific directions for each gender regarding our conduct in the context of relationship.

(Maybe eventually we’ll get to issues about teaching in church)
Diane

roadsign wrote:
(Maybe eventually we’ll get to issues about teaching in church)
Diane

Diane you are not holding your breath are you? take it from Dr. Bill's teachings this would not be good. :-P

Diane you are not holding your breath are you? take it from Dr. Bill's teachings this would not be good.

Well if I had a woman teach me how to Pray "like in Jesus name" if I did not know, would that be edifying or grow in godliness

or better yet…

Why not get a head start on a new topic: “What does it mean to take Jesus’ name?" I’ll maybe catch up later.

Here are some possible kick-off questions:

What does it mean to take the name of the Lord (of Christ=Christian)?
What does it mean to take the name of the Lord in vain (futile)?

What does it mean when a wife takes her husband’s name in a marriage covenant?
Can a wife take her husband’s name “in vain”?

What does it mean to pray in Jesus’ name?
Pray .. women and head coverings..

Might be a great topic. And we even might find ourselves converging back to the topic of this thread.

Diane

Dear Diane,

Why is this issue of such importance to you at this time? Do you feel like God is calling you to teach, but someone is keeping you from doing this? Do you feel lead by God to debate this issue? Are you teaching currently, and feel convicted over this?

I am wondering what your motivation is.

In love,
Blake

I am wondering what your motivation is.

though by this time you aught to be teachers you need someone to teach you the elementary truths … But solid food is for the mature who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil” Heb. 5:12

And who are they who can’t teach yet and haven’t trained themselves to “distinguish good from evil”? Some of them are mentioned in the epistle to Timothy: “Weak-willed women”:

There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, ….. having a form of godliness but denying its power. … They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. 2 Tim. 3:1-7 (so they are never able to teach!)

I realize that some women are offended by what Paul has to say about their gender. However, let’s admit, many women these days really are prone to follow after preacher/celebrities, televangelists (who have wormed into their homes via the TV). I wonder how many of those fellows get rich mainly by being able to convince weak-willed women to send in their donations (playing on their guilt).

Even from my own observation, I know that there are women who are ever- seeking truth, but never really learning. They attend every special church or ladies function that is around. But they never think about their responsibility to teach the important matters of the Gospel in the context of relationships. They can’t, because, really, they fail to accept the Gospel. Paul was quite insightful.

Consider this compliment that Paul gave to Timothy’s mother and grandmother:

“from infancy you have known the scriptures.” 2 Tim. 3:15

What could this mean? Maybe there is something to be said in the quote, “The one who rocks the cradle rules the world.”

Did you notice that I embolded the word “homes” earlier? In Bible times religious life was centered in the home, but now our institutions along with their paid professionals have become the center. So of course, the Biblical understanding and value of teaching in the home has been usurped.

Luther may not have spoken the best about women, but at least he said this: “The woman in the home can do more with the children with one finger than the husband with both fists.” Durant, The Story of Civilization Vol.6, The Reformation.

What does scripture say about the role of training, teaching, disciplining in the home setting?
Diane

The short epistle of Titus is packed with insight on subject of teaching – right from the onset: “... knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness …” 1:1 The final words of the letter reinforce this aim: “Our people must learn to devote themselves to doing what is good in order that they may provide for daily necessities and not live unproductive lives.” 3:14

People whose teaching does not achieve godly living “…reject the truth… have corrupted minds and consciences, stimulate “foolish controversies” and arguments.. and ruin households ..” . These we must learn to recognize, and the church leaders must “refute” 1:9, “rebuke sharply” 1:13 “avoid” 3:9 “warn” 3:10 and “have nothing to do with” 3:10. These ones “must be silenced”.1:11

Of course divisive people don’t necessarily appear divisive. It may be a long time before the fruit of their faulty doctrines becomes apparent, maybe long after they are gone: The unity of the Body becomes damaged. Legalism is a good example. That is the issue addressed in Titus 1:10 regarding those who “ruin whole households” and “must be silenced”. Our present day church is littered with the fruit of legalism: self-centeredness, competitiveness, arguments over detail of law, calloused hearts, pride, emotional illness, shame, addictions, bitterness. It all leads to fractured relationships, broken marriages, church splits etc. I believe that these problems are rooted, not only in the sin nature, but also in the cradle where teaching begins.

Godliness is the outcome of “a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life…” 1:2

According to the epistle to Titus, how does good teaching in the Body foster unity and relational harmony? How does it help us achieve God’s purposes for the church?

Diane

Diane,

You made some very imteresting points in what a woman should teach. From your posts I understand you to be saying women should teach other females. And that is a big mission field, one that men cannot adequately minister to alone. If females account for over 50% of the population, we have a BIG job to do.

Titus tells us older sisters to teach the younger women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, good, obedient to their husbands - Titus 2:4,5. Another thing one could easily add to this list is to teach other females to think with their brain, their intellect not their emotions. We females have this problem of thinking emotionally and we get into all kinds of trouble for it. Methinks this is one reason why church leadership is entrusted to males. God made us this way and sometimes it may help in raising children, but we can learn to think objectively...takes work and the Holy Spirit to do so.

If we have such a huge job ahead of us, why on earth would any female want to compete with a male in church leadership?

ginnyrose

Dear Diane,

I know this post comes much later, but I didn't see your post until now. That is a bit odd.

You must know that I am not against women teaching. I believe that Christ is the Head of the Church, and it He alone who determines the "job" of anyone therein. Paul was a servant of Christ, and while He spoke with great authority as granted by Christ, we live to serve Jesus and not Paul.

I have asked you this all because if you are fighting for the "rights" of women in the Church, your fight is a unwarranted one unless Christ has asked this of you. The only thing we need to be concerned with is that we are seeking the will of the Lord. If the Lord has asked us to do anything, He will make our course clear. If He has asked any woman to teach, He will open the door for her. And if the Devil attempts to come, through Christ's own, and stop this woman, then Christ will respond accordingly. He will judge the man for stopping the woman from doing His will. The woman only needs to be concerned with one thing: did she obey the Lord?

The only thing any of us, men and women alike, need to be concerned with is the will of the Lord. The big misconception that many people have is that the will of the Lord for everything has been outlined in the bible. Of course, if this were true, then Paul would be a lair, because He says that we can know the Lord's will by the renewing of the mind as established in Romans 12:2.

The only way we can know the Lord's will is through unity to Christ. The only way to be united to Christ is by sacrifice. We must give up everything so that Christ can have complete reign over us. When Christ reigns in us, we do the Lord's will because we are controlled by Christ. In this, our mind is renewed.

I tell you all this because this is all you need to be concerned with. If you are doing the Lord's will, then you are in obedience. If you are not, then you are in disobedience. The only thing we need to be concerned with is obedience by being controlled by Christ. He is the vine, we are the branches. We can do nothing apart from Him.

So again I ask, what is your motivation for this? Are you doing this because it is the Lord's will?

In love,
Blake

Hi, Beenblake. I almost forgot about this thread. Actually I started it, to get away from the useless tendencies to debate the “if” and simply see what it actually is we should be doing. Frankly I have no need to discuss the “if”, because my life belongs to God, and he’ll do with me what he wishes. I trust him not to lead me where I shouldn’t be. (Oh, I just remember, I do have more material to post here, but will have to dig it up first)

The big misconception that many people have is that the will of the Lord for everything has been outlined in the bible.

The central issue is what is in our hearts, not what or when or where, or if women are to teach.

Diane