Hard sayings of Jesus

Why did Jesus say the following and what did He mean by saying them:

John 6:37-40,
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:44-45,
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

John 6:65,
"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Luke 9:18-21 And it came to pass, as He was alone praying, His disciples were with Him: and He asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am? They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again. ((He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.)) And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;

Who revealed their answer, "The Christ of God"?
1 Peter 1:11-13 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

This is for the believers after Pentecost. For the apostles specifically Peter, who answer and received the statement from Jesus, "Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, ((but my Father which is in heaven."))

Who sent them this revelation? That in form of the question being those that have been sent and chosen to know That Jesus is the "Christ of God".

All things given to man are given by God. It is His choice to be the progenitor of all those that are in Christ, by the revelation of Jesus Christ in them. Believe? Only by the measure of faith God has given to all man, and that measure being used by the Holy Spirit to effect the revelation of Needing a Savior, that being Jesus Christ the Son of God. Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Quote; "All that the Father gives me will come to me," It is undeniably said by Christ that He knows that all that are given to Him by the Father will come to Him. None other can come.

Quote:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." How are they drawn? By the Father through the Holy Spirit through the measure of Faith given to all man, which Grace through Faith can only be revealed by God.
Ephesians 2:6-8 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"The gift of God", which everyone that hears, goes to Jesus for salvation. "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--"

We cannot teach ourselves Grace or Faith it is of God, "Ye must be born again to understand the things of the Kingdom".

In Christ: Phillip

Hi JaySaved,

There has always been a disappointment surrounding all the theology of predestination that is extrapolated, often from these very texts.

Just changing the emphasis a bit giving a different perspective;

[i][b]whoever comes to me[/b] I will [u]never[/u] cast out.[/i]

[i]that [b]everyone[/b] who looks [u]on the Son and believes in him[/u] should have eternal life[/i]

The one already stressed;

[i][b]Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--[/b][/i]

Putting them all back where they were found and again the seemingly contradiction of;

[i]"This is why I told you that [b]no one[/b] can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."[/i]

[i]This is why ...[/i], What is 'why'? Better, what is 'this'? What preceded it all? All kinds of backdrop, could it be that other hard saying;
[i]He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.[/i]? (Joh 6:56). It practically repulsed so many that ... [i]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.[/i] Joh 6:66

Even after He had explained what He meant;
[i]As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.[/i]

And

[i]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/i] Joh 6:63

Yet what good do they do if they are not 'eaten' as it were? To go back to; [i]"This is why I told you that [b]no one[/b] can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."[/i] "Granted", what is the 'grant'? I am less sure it is the idea of predestination as it has often been reported and more, this will get me into all kinds of trouble in some camps, of [i]conditions[/i].

[i]Whosoever[/i] is pleaded throughout scripture;

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And [u]whosoever[/u] will, let him take the water of life freely.

1Jo 5:1 [u]Whosoever[/u] believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

1Jo 3:9 [u]Whosoever[/u] is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Of the many, this last one, conditional, yes? "Born of God." All may come come, [i]whosoever[/i] may come. But there are some "musts".

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye [u]must[/u] be born again.

And also a "cannot";

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he [u]cannot[/u] see the kingdom of God.

Going over to Luke;

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he [u]cannot[/u] be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, [u]cannot[/u] be my disciple.

So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he [u]cannot[/u] be my disciple. Luk 14:26,27,43

So it seems there are some conditions after all to receiving this 'grant' of the Father that go on beyond [i]believing[/i] in His Name, actually, to believe on His Name is to meet all these requirements.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

[i]The demons believe and tremble[/i] ... Comes to mind. Judas had all the opportunities of all the other disciples and yet ...

Another, wonderful, tremendous incident that has always just struck me in it's profundity;

[i]And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, who had spent all her living upon physicians, and could not be healed of any, came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately the issue of her blood stanched. And Jesus said, Who is it that touched me? And when all denied, Peter said, and they that were with him, Master, the multitudes press thee and crush thee.

But Jesus said, Some one did touch me; for I perceived that power had gone forth from me.[/i] Luk 8:43-46 (ASV)

That the woman touched Him far deeper than a mental ascent, she [i]really[/i] [u]believed[/u], enough to draw off power from the Lord. Tremendous, mind blowing thought!

That profound difference there contrasted with those offended and then turned back even though they had up to that point been even '[i]disciples[/i], seeing all the miraculous works, following the Lord, 'believing' up to a point... until it cost them something.

Both a receiving and a repudiating. Repentance is a condition. And I just cannot see any possibility at all of 'accepting' the one without the repenting or 'repudiating' of the other. It's axiomatic, automatic. Having the eye's of the heart opened is to bring everything out into exposure. Everything.

Have been musing on this a great deal and perhaps it is why it is taking this leaning to these hard questions. The simplicity and difficulty of everything boils down to just sheer honesty. That is the requirement. It always has been and always will be the prerequisite to everything. It is the beginning, end and middle and that ongoing middle of progression. "[i]I desire truth in the [u]inward[/u] parts[/i]."

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: [i]no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.[/i]

This, the 'grant', this, is the only way through, this, is the acceptance. It is adamant that we must be therefore [i]changed[/i], altered, re-born.[i]... no flesh should glory in his presence.[/i]

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have [u]no life[/u] in you.

Recalling these are spiritual words, from the spiritual Man, it is His life that is the requirement.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There it is, this all encompassing verse that has practically become something that many wish was almost not in the scriptures anymore, having been rushed over and trampled underfoot. [i]Whosoever[/i] again.

Joh 3:17 [u]For[/u] God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That ought to be the most frightening verse in all of the New Testament. [i]Already[/i]. There you have it, the line in the sand, there is no passing beyond it nor sneaking in another way.

Joh 3:19 And [u]this[/u] is the condemnation, [b]that[/b] light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Exposure.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

"Lest", there is the condition, there is the key, there is repentance and admittance and confession and repudiating, there is the coming clean, there is the essence of honesty.

There is the stalling as well.

1Ki 18:21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, [b]How long halt ye between two opinions?[/b] if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth [b]cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest[/b], that they are wrought in God.

Think there is just a whole world of 'theology' packed into this ending of the context. To digress back to the whole matter of predestination, I personally believe the whole thing is just shot through with presumption on 'our' part, those that hold to this idea that everything is and has been settled (it has) and therefore we are ultimately wasting our time speaking to those [i]predestined[/i] to perdition and on and on it goes. I am flatly convinced it is none of our darned business, meddling, assuming the end from the beginning, that which is reserved for God alone. A certain audacity that strikes me as appalling.

To end this. OF [i]course[/i] we cannot come to [i]Him[/i] lest the Father [u]draws[/u] ... Is this not the very thing that is perpetually in motion?;

Rom 10:21 But about Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and rebellious people."

And what of the paradoxical statement just prior?

Rom 10:20 And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who were not looking for me; I was revealed to those who were not asking for me."

Every single solitary soul that is honest has a giant question unanswered;

Why?

What's the point? Why live and die? Why the universe? Creation itself begs an answer. The conscience begs an answer. Sure there is that "God shaped hole" as it has been put but there is a [i]must[/i] of explanation, a demand inwardly for the answer. Are not these very things the "[i]draw[/i]"? It is either denial or capitulation.

Backing up once again;

Rom 10:18 But I ask, "Didn't they hear?" Certainly they did! In fact, "Their voice has gone out into the whole world, and their words to the ends of the earth."

"[b]All that the Father gives me will come to me[/b],

1Jo 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Jo 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

And so they do and so they will, come to the Lord, upon those conditions He Has set forth. Quite a bit still left unsaid I realize and apologize for the legnthy ... I guess it was as much a study in motion as I went along, culling and drawing off various underlying expressions.

Thank you for you input.

You might not want to see predestination in these verses but one cannot ignore the obvious truth spoken in these verses.

1) All that the Father gives me will come to me.
This tells us that before the world began God the Father gave certain people to God the Son. (John 17:6).

2) Whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Many people seem to think that predestination implies that some want to be saved but God does not allow them because He has not predestined them. This logic is clearly refuted in these words: 'ALL people who are predestined for salvation will receive that salvation.’ Someone who sincerely comes to Jesus will not be cast out. It is impossible for someone to desire to believe but then have God refuse to save them. This is backed up by everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life

3)No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
When Jesus gave his 'eat my flesh and drink my blood' speech, many deserted him. Why? They were offended at his speech. But were they not seekers? Yes, they were seekers but they sought Jesus for the wrong motive. Like the people who only sought Jesus to gain something from him, many people today want salvation for the wrong motive. They have a wrong motive because they are not drawn to Jesus by God the Father. How many times do we in the Church ‘rubberstamp’ people to be Christians when they are seeking him for the wrong motive. You say, “Who are we to judge someone who comes for salvation.” I say, “Who are we NOT to judge?” I know nothing worse than believing yourself to be a Christian when you truly are not. (Trust me, I have been there). We have the fundamental truth that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him and those whom the Father draws will never be cast out. The person who is drawn by God will come and nothing will deter him.

4. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son.
This is clear, EVERYONE who has heard and learned from the Father comes to the Son. Everyone. This means that all who have heard and learned from God must come to Jesus. No one who has heard and learned can do anything but come to Jesus.

That profound difference there contrasted with those offended and then turned back even though they had up to that point been even 'disciples, seeing all the miraculous works, following the Lord, 'believing' up to a point... until it cost them something.
Both a receiving and a repudiating. Repentance is a condition. And I just cannot see any possibility at all of 'accepting' the one without the repenting or 'repudiating' of the other. It's axiomatic, automatic. Having the eye's of the heart opened is to bring everything out into exposure. Everything.

Those who were offended were not drawn to Jesus by God. If they were drawn to Jesus by God then they would not have been offended. God did not lead them to Christ.

You might not want to see predestination in these verses but one cannot ignore the obvious truth spoken in these verses.

While we are actually saying much of the same thing in most places, still there is something that troubles to hear;

This tells us that before the world began God the Father gave certain people to God the Son. (John 17:6).

All those who didn't reject Him? My biggest trouble with all of this is the meddling into divine mystery and understanding, it still begs a certain level of supposition and difficulty if you want to put 'certain' up against 'whosoever'.

Those who were offended were not drawn to Jesus by God. If they were drawn to Jesus by God then they would not have been offended. God did not lead them to Christ.

What about Judas? And ... Peter? Think there is much more to this than meets the eye.

Do you deny Jesus' words when He said:
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

What does He mean by 'all that the Father gives me' except that the Father gives people to Him'?

What about Judas? And ... Peter? Think there is much more to this than meets the eye.

Jesus makes it clear about Judas and Peter.

John 6
60When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." 66After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?" 68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." 70Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil." 71He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

Judas was not drawn to Jesus for Salvation. Judas was chosen by God to serve the purpose of betraying Jesus into the hands of the Romans. For Judas to have been given to Jesus and drawn to him for salvation would contradict the earlier verse that said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

Peter along with the 'Disciples who turned back and no longer walked with him' heard the same words spoken by Jesus. Those who turned back were offended at Jesus' words, but Peter said to Jesus that he believed he was the Holy one of God. Peter was drawn to Jesus by God, the others were not. This is why it is said that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him.

Judas was chosen by God to serve the purpose of betraying Jesus into the hands of the Romans.

Judas as chess piece?

Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

If they were drawn to Jesus by God then they would not have been offended.

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter not offended? And [i]satanic[/i]?

[b]Joh 6:44 -
No man can come to me[/b] - This was spoken by Jesus to reprove their complaints - “Murmur not among yourselves.” They objected to his doctrine, or complained against it, because he claimed to be greater than Moses, and because they supposed him to be a mere man, and that what he said was impossible. Jesus does not deny that these things appeared difficult, and hence he said that if any man believed, it was proof that God had inclined him. It was not to be expected that of themselves they would embrace the doctrine. If any man believed, it would be because he had been influenced by God. When we inquire what the reasons were why they did not believe, they appear to have been:

1. Their improper regard for Moses, as if no one could be superior to him.

2. Their unwillingness to believe that Jesus, whom they knew to be the reputed son of a carpenter, should be superior to Moses.

3. The difficulty was explained by Jesus Joh_5:40 as consisting in the opposition of their will; and Joh_5:44 when he said that their love of honor prevented their believing on him. The difficulty in the case was not, therefore, a want of natural faculties, or of power to do their duty, but erroneous opinions, pride, obstinacy, self-conceit, and a deep-felt contempt for Jesus. The word cannot is often used to denote a strong and violent opposition of the will. Thus we say a man is so great a liar that he cannot speak the truth, or he is so profane that he cannot but swear. We mean by it that he is so wicked that while he has that disposition the other effects will follow, but we do not mean to say that he could not break off from the habit. Thus it is said Gen_37:4 of the brethren of Joseph that they hated him, and could not speak peaceably to him. Thus Mat_12:34, “How can ye, being evil, speak good things?” See Luk_14:33; 1Sa_16:2.

[b]Come to me[/b] - The same as believe on me.

[b]Draw him[/b] - This word is used here, evidently, to denote such an influence from God as to secure the result, or as to incline the mind to believe; yet the manner in which this is done is not determined by the use of the word. It is used in the New Testament six times. Once it is applied to a compulsory drawing of Paul and Silas to the market-place, Act_16:19. Twice it is used to denote the drawing of a net, Joh_21:6, Joh_21:11. Once to the drawing of a sword Joh_18:10; and once in a sense similar to its use here Joh_12:32; “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” What is its meaning here must be determined by the facts about the sinner’s conversion. See the notes at Joh_6:40. In the conversion of the sinner God enlightens the mind Joh_6:45, he inclines the will Psa_110:3, and he influences the soul by motives, by just views of his law, by his love, his commands, and his threatenings; by a desire of happiness, and a consciousness of danger; by the Holy Spirit applying truth to the mind, and urging him to yield himself to the Saviour. So that, while God inclines him, and will have all the glory, man yields without compulsion; the obstacles are removed, and he becomes a willing servant of God.

Albert Barnes

Judas as chess piece?

Judas was chosen to accomplish his task. Please see Acts 1:16 in which Peter spoke "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus."

The Scripture had to be fulfilled concerning Judas. Judas fulfilled God's plan.

JaySaved wrote:
If they were drawn to Jesus by God then they would not have been offended.

Crssck wrote:
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter not offended? And satanic?

Did Peter reject Christ? Peter denied Christ but Christ restored him. Peter was taught by God. He could not have left Jesus. This is my point. Only those who are drawn to Jesus by God will come. Peter definitely was drawn.

The disciples who left Jesus became offended by His words and LEFT him. Jesus did not persuade them to return. Peter never left Jesus. Yes, he denied Him, but he never left him.

... [i]doomed to destruction[/i] isn't it?

Hi brother, you are correct and certainly am not attempting to challenge anything stated quite emphatically. Perhaps I am leaning towards personal responsibility in these things, it just often comes off as something almost 'robotic' to hear things couched in certain terms.

The drawing aspect still leaves me full of wonder and amazement. To try and distill it down too much perhaps a bit of the rub, rubbing me the wrong way. My own case in point experientially would truly make me either a hypocrite or seriously confused the way I have been trying to bring out some questions here. No doubt at all that the life was one of being hunted down by the Lord Himself, a very amazing thing still to this day.

Perhaps I am leaning towards personal responsibility in these things, it just often comes off as something almost 'robotic' to hear things couched in certain terms.

I do understand that. I am personally not advocating that man is robotic and without moral obligation. What I am advocating is the scriptural view that salvation is through the grace of God and is not dependent on anything we do or don't do.

This thread coincides with another thread entitled 'Question concerning your salvation' in which I present the argument:

"Salvation does not occur simply because you choose to believe. Salvation occurs when God in his mercy regenerates your heart and mind thereby enabling you to seek, desire, and believe in Christ."

This is the only position that corresponds biblically to the phrase, [url=http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0131.htm]"Salvation is of the LORD"[/url]