Revelation

Concerning the book of Revelation.

Is it a book of symbols or should it be read literally?

If part is literal and part is symbols then how does one determine which is which?

Should the entire book be understood to be symbolic? or should the entire book be understood to be literal.

An example of not reading Revelation literally: Jesus is referred to as a lamb (Rev. 5:6) This is understood to be symbol.

An example of reading Revelation literally:
Two witnesses will come and prophesy (Rev. 11:1-14) Some understand this to be literal men.

Why is some of Revelation read literally and some symbolically? Why not either all read literally or all read symbolically?

These are all very good questions. I'd like to hear the answers too. I'll be watching this post.

Out of my limited knowledge on this topic, I would like to still share what I feel that God has shown me about this book.

1. It's not a timeline.

Dispite many pre-tribulationists and mid-tribulationists (and even some post-tribers) may think. It's NOT a timeline. How?

Well. The bible was never written with Chapters and Verses, they were put in LATER. Even though it's handy, it's wasn't apart of the ORGINAL copies.

Second, and more of a solid defense for my statement. The writers and us (American/Europeans) have different thought processes or 'different WAYS' of thinking. Keep in mind NEITHER are bad, just DIFFERENT. Just like their are different ways of learning.

John and the middle eastern writers (which is 'kinda' what they are) are from the Orent(i think that's how you spell it), basically Asian. And us (American and European) are from the Greco-Roman decents.

The Orent are thinkers of seasons and events. Where Greco-Romans think more in a linar way; numbers, titles, etc.

Greco-Romans think '1 comes before 2 and 2 before 3 and so-on.' Where the Orent think in seasons or events, like walking up the stairs or going to the beach.

Example, Greco-Romans think January comes before December and such. Well, true but not if your IN December. Orent thinkers think Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter. They focus more on EVENTS and not on numbers or titles.

Another example. To the Orent you could be in the 'winter' for years, if there is a plague or drought or something that hits them for a few years but in reality you went through January and December many times but again to the Orenty they still think their in WINTER till the next sight of SPRING.

2. It interupts a majority of itself.

Daniel and Revelation (as far as I've seen) tell you what each 'beast' or thing means.

If John, Daniel, or believer in the Word didn't understand something, someone (Jesus, Angel, or God the Father) revealed the meaning IN SCRIPTURE. For example the parable of the Sower. Honestly. I don't see how you get the interuptation from what He said RIGHT after He said it. Maybe your just more spiritual then myself. I don't know.

3. It's not American.

Enough said.

4. It's the future.

Therefore, it's something that we should all be dilgent on learning about. Let's not be ignorant on a topic that Christ Himself has given for us.

Rev. 1:3 (NASB)
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

A few things that I've seen, by His everlasting grace, is the parellels in the Book of Revelation.

1. 7 trumpets and 7 bowls seem to line up almost completly. (the 1st and 5th don't line up completly. Like the 1st don't at all. But the 5th still mention torment from a enemy).

Check
[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%208:7-9:21,%2011:15-19;&version=49;]7 trumpets[/url] and [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%2016:2-21;&version=49;]7 bowls[/url]

2. The 2 witnesses, Women-Baby-Dragon, and Beast from the Sea inter-lock VERY CLOSLY with Daniel (and each other).

Check [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev.%2011:7,%2012:17,%2013:7,%20Dan.%207:21;&version=49;]inter locking[/url]

I have another 'revelation' but I can't reveal it till I have a more credable case.

Now. Just a few side notes:

When studying this book or ANY book:

1. Keep an open mind and heart to the Holy Spirit.

Just cause you think your theology is 'right'. It might be completly wrong according to His Truth.

2. Be willing for Him to change YOUR doctrine.

This goes back into the 1st one.

3. Don't hold history or 'popular' teaching ABOVE the Word of God.

Many people get wrapped up in popular teaching. For example "You need faith to be healed". Hmm, that's not what [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings%2013:21;&version=49;]2 Kings 13:21[/url] implies.

4. Be testing of any 'new'(to you) doctrine.

Test ALL things and HOLD fast to what is GOOD.

5. Don't be afraid of history, it might reveal 'just how old is this doctrine'.

Just like the rapture. I think America is older than the doctrine. (Pretty young doctrine).

Have fun with this great book. I know I am!! :-P

Here are 37 commentaries on this book. Hmm funny that 25 out of the 37 believe that the '2 witnesses' are the church. Just kind of ironic. (No favorism in numbers, but kinda in a way 8-) )

[url=http://www.apocalipsis.org/rev-comp.htm]Comparisions[/url]

From what I have heard and read on Revelation I personally believe we should take it as literally as we can and only ascribe symbols when it's clearly shown in other scriptures what those symbols mean. For example Jesus is a lamb, well we know from other scripture that He is a Man and so the lamb is a symbol. But when it says the two witnesses will spit fire on the mockers, there's no reason to think they will just 'speak harshly' but that two real people will actually spit fire on their enemies.

Remember the book of revelation is not for us to predict the future but that when events hapen we will be encouraged that God has already shown us that these things will take place. there are too many cults that use verses in Revelation to back up their false teachings, if you are going to study Revelation then study it in the context of the rest of the Bible, as a lot of symbolism is explained elsewhere.

Note a hundred years ago scholars argued what it meant when it said that Israel would become a nation again, most thought it to be symbolic because they didn't believe the Jews could ever reclaim their land, now we see that those verses were literal and all those ideas and suggestions were shown to be redundant.

Are the two witnesses Moses and Elijah? or the church of England and the methodists? ;-) Who cares! we will find out in Gods time, let us tell people about what we know, not debate what we are not yet to understand, If Jesus wanted us to know the answer He would have told John to explain it in clearer words, but I guess even then we would disagree with the meaning :-(

But when it says the two witnesses will spit fire on the mockers, there's no reason to think they will just 'speak harshly' but that two real people will actually spit fire on their enemies.

This is my point. Two men who spit fire on their enemies seems very far-fetched to me and I can't recall any other scripture mentioning fire breathing prophets. How can one take that scripture as literal?

JaySaved wrote:

This is my point. Two men who spit fire on their enemies seems very far-fetched to me and I can't recall any other scripture mentioning fire breathing prophets. How can one take that scripture as literal?

Far fetched, that's a may be but why should we take it symbolically and try to guess what it means when we can just believe what God says and see what happens, a God who can do many wonderful things never before seen can give us fire breathing preachers, locusts with horses heads and the most miraculous of all... He can save a sinner like me and call me righteous.

Proverbs 3 v 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heard and lean not unto thine own understanding.

From what I have heard and read on Revelation I personally believe we should take it as literally as we can and only ascribe symbols when it's clearly shown in other scriptures what those symbols mean.

Revelation 11
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed.

Zechariah 4
1And the angel who talked with me came again and woke me, like a man who is awakened out of his sleep. 2And he said to me, "What do you see?" I said, "I see, and behold, a lampstand all of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and seven lamps on it, with seven lips on each of the lamps that are on the top of it. 3And there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left." 4And I said to the angel who talked with me, "What are these, my lord?" 5Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord." 6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts. 7Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain. And he shall bring forward the top stone amid shouts of 'Grace, grace to it!'"

8Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 9"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. 10For whoever has despised the day of small things shall rejoice, and shall see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel.

"These seven are the eyes of the LORD, which range through the whole earth." 11Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?" 12And a second time I answered and said to him, "What are these two branches of the olive trees, which are beside the two golden pipes from which the golden oil[a] is poured out?" 13He said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" I said, "No, my lord." 14Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Zechariah doesn't seem to give the impression that two witnesses will walk around and breathe fire on people.

Now if these two witnesses are "prophesying", in the N.T. isn't that "preaching"? If so,then here is your answer about the fire from their mouths
[b]"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?" Jeremiah 23:29[/b]

Now if these two witnesses are "prophesying", in the N.T. isn't that "preaching"? If so,then here is your answer about the fire from their mouths

Good point, thus the language in Revelation would by symbolic and not literal. Does Revelation itself say that some of the prophesy mentioned should be taken literally?

The points you are making and scripture references are all valid but why try to work out what every single word means when we can just take it literally, Obviously some of the images are symbolic and I bet every one is mentioned elsewhere with an interpretation, a lot of Revelation is interpereted in itself, but to say that the difficult passages are symbolic because they seem far-fetched is putting our own interpretation on God's word.

Do you think He will be mad at us if we take Him literally? If He has shown us the meaning elsewhere and we are neglegent in our studies then I can see Him being disapointed, but to twist what He says so it fits what we think is going to happen in the future, thats walking on thin ice.

Please re-read my first post, I am not trying to debate individual verses, especially as I am no scholar, but if we start off accepting the word as literal and only applying symbolism and interpretation to those things we can clearly see are revealed in scripture (that is they are interpreted elsewhere) then we are on safer ground than if we think everything is a symbol and have to try and work out how each word or phrase relates to the real world.

I will repeat some of my first post; let's not worry about weather or not there will be fire breathing witnesses, we will find out soon enough, let's just do what He told us to do and when the end time events unfold we will see that He has already revealed them to us so we have confidence in Him and are pre warned as to the urgency of the times we live in.

In a nutshell; when the witnesses appear in whatever form, I will not be shouting 'See I told you' or 'Sorry I thought that...' I will be preaching 'the kingdom of God is at hand, Repent therefore...', unless of cours I've been raptured, but that's another thread :-P

allhavsinned wrote:
Are the two witnesses Moses and Elijah? or the church of England and the methodists? ;-) Who cares!

Well, that's like saying 'Who cares about "baptism of the Spirit"' or "Who cares about immursion or sprinkling" or even "Who cares about giving money to God"

Umm brother. These things are in the Book that WE (Christians) stand on. Everything in it, from cover to cover IS IMPORTANT. I don't care who you are, where your from, what 'Christian' background you have. From Gen. to Revelation the ENTIRE bible is IMPORTANT.

GOD CARES.

[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%208:3,%20Matthew%204:3-4,%20John%206:47-58;&version=49;]Every Word is Important[/url]

Now, just like ANY topic we shouldn't get 'carried away' in something. (Which I think you were impling) Like being so 'strong' in bible prophesy yet neglect love, justice and righteousness. There is a balance but let's not limit God's revelation and understanding that He gives to His people.

If God wrote it and had it in this Book. It's important case closed.

I don't fully understand it but I know God knows it and if I diligently seek His face and truth. He will show me His meaning.

Keep seeking Him 8-)

Not to be mean but this was your (allhavesinned) post in another thread.

When we read Scripture it's too easy to say 'I understand that' and skip over it, really we think we understand it, like my daughter thought she understood how to work a teabag, but actually we need to realise that too many times we miss whole area's of scripture that appear to be simple on the outside but inside they hold the most profound nuggets for our learning.

Yet. I think you've done that 'allhavesinned'. We are judged by our words. And to my eyes seems like you should do some checking on weither you believe that quote in this reply.

Again, not trying to be mean. I just love God's word because I get to learn more about Him and saying that 'some of Him' isn't worth looking into is, to me, wrong.

Love and grace.

Lovegrace, I apreciate what you are saying and I feel I am digging myself into a pit in this thread, I have never been much good at explaining myself. I do realise that my other thread has lessons that have just come to light to me and I need to take them onboard as you have said, but if we look at the initial post from Jaysaved, he asked if Revelation was lieral or symbolic or both (if I understand his post correctly), my response was that we should take everything literally unless there is good scriptural reason not to. My comment about who the witnesses are and I said 'who cares' i did put a smiley there to show my tongue in cheek tone, I don't mean the word of God is not important but that for now the issue of the witnesses is not important because we have other areas to deal with like the great comission, I wanted to warn people away from putting too much study into things that have been hidden until God's timing, that's what cults do to woo people into their churches, promising to explain the difficult passages.

I too love God's word but the division that comes about because people disagree on some small point, when we would be better spending our time not on trying to predict the future (as we do when trying to say who the witnesses are), but to study what we do understand in the bible and aply it to our lives, then God will reveal more of His word to us.

I am going to bow out of this thread now, I am not saying I am right, I am just putting forward observations that come from experience, I love to read other peoples posts because they are often further along the narrow way than I am, so I will stop taking up space and wait for JaySaved's question to be answered by them.

my response was that we should take everything literally unless there is good scriptural reason not to.

This is what I would like to address and I hope others would join this conversation.

This is a common way of interpreting Revelation but it is very subjective. One person might think there is a good scriptural reason to say that the two witnesses are symbolic and not actually two physical people. Another might not think there is not a good scriptural reason to see symbolism in the two witnesses and they affirm that the two witnesses must be two physical people. Who is right when this type of interpretation is used?

Did God actually intend for us to read the prophecy in Revelation by constantly switching back and forth between literal and symbolic?

Lovegrace, I apreciate what you are saying and I feel I am digging myself into a pit in this thread, I have never been much good at explaining myself.

I had quite a laugh about that statement. Cause I've been battling with that in real life for a few years now. Word that are common to me are 'you dont understand, ugh nevermind, forget it' haha. Brother. Thanks for clarifying everything. I think I too will step out of this conversation as well though. Because I have no other knowledge on this topic.