The wicked church in America

Does anyone else besides me (and possibly Jay Bird) cringe at all of the posts that refer to the 'wicked unrepentant church in America'?

The church in America is repentant, vibrant, in love with God, on her knees praying, seeking His face in all matters, and sharing the love of Christ to all people.

The problem is that too many unregenerate people claim to be Christians. It is not the church that is the problem, it is the hypocrites who claim the blood of Christ, yet trample on it daily in their lives.

The church in America loves God. God is pleased with the church in America.

It reminds me of a Paul Washer sermon in which a preacher gave a statistic: 70% of born again teenagers do not believe in the resurrection. Paul replies, 'Sir, if they do not believe in the resurrection then how can they be born again.'

Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.

I agree with you. unfortunately, the Church gets blamed for the behavior of false converts.

I agree with you. unfortunately, the Church gets blamed for the behavior of false converts.

...and the backsliders, those who do not keep up with repentance, and those who Jesus rebuked who have fallen away from their first love, you know, the lukewarmers, that God said He will spew out if they don't come back to their first love. seems jesus saw alot of wickedness in the church!

rem·nant (rĕm'nənt)
n.
Something left over; a remainder.
A piece of fabric remaining after the rest has been used or sold.
A surviving trace or vestige: a remnant of his past glory.
A small surviving group of people. Often used in the plural.

The remnant is the Church. The "true Church" that is. Many still believe that the buildings and all the people in them are what makes up the body of Christ.

God Bless

TJ

Are there not three groups, brother Jay? Is there not a group of people who are saved, washed in the Blood of Jesus, and yet through choices to make self first and not God first have become mediocre and backslidden?

I do not believe that their are separate groups in the church as follows: Regenerate on fire, Regenerate lukewarm, unregenerate on fire, unregenerate lukewarm. I see one group in the church: Regenerate. I agree that there are Christian's who slide into a state of complacency. But these individuals are still part of the true vibrant church. These Christian's are being disciplined by God in love in order to bring them closer to Himself.

Hebrews 12:4-6 speaks of this:

"In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed."

This discipline is for the Christian's own good. God will not allow them to remain complacent. This is not discipline of condemnation, this is discipline that brings the believer back to God. In Revelation 3:19 Jesus says, "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent."

My own personal testimony is that I do (far more than I want) fall into a state of complacency. But, God in his grace and mercy brings me out of that state.

I say that to now say, 'God is actively bringing all complacent Christians closer to him.' I do not believe that God is sitting back in heaven wondering what to do with this Church problem to which He finally gives up and says 'Oh well, I can't do anything with them so I might as well destroy them all.' We are not under the Old Covenant anymore. 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;"

I make a request, can we discontinue with the 'God will destroy America due to the church's lack of repentance' posts and begin posting the 'each person examine themselves to see whether or not they are in the faith' posts.

I want to highlight a couple of things from this quote:

"Are there not three groups, brother Jay? Is there not a group of people who are saved, washed in the Blood of Jesus, and yet through choices to make self first and not God first have become mediocre and backslidden? I'm thinking of a message by Keith Daniel, Protection From Backsliding, the first step to backsliding is entering the day without soaking yourself in God's Word. This is the church of God that needs revival! This is the church for which I am burdened. And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because is it not the glory of God that is at stake here? We are the Bride of Christ, it is possible for our garments to be dirty, but the Blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse away ALL filthiness.:

[color=3300CC]This is the church of God that needs revival! This is the church for which I am burdened. And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because is it not the glory of God that is at stake here?[/color]

This is awesome love. I see this as the real issue. This quote is the heart of the Father. What is our heart in the condition of the church. Does it burden us to get on our knees and repent ourselves to identify with the condition as Daniel did:

Dan 9:8 O Lord, to us [belongeth] confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.

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Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

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Dan 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.

[color=0000CC]We need to see the body is one and:[/color]

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

* I feel we have a great responsibility toward any that are stuggling and even those who are messed up or lost. Those going through the motions, or have an outward sign of being a Christian are important to God.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The Lord has given us a pattern of what we are supposed to do if we see a brother taken in a sin, I'm sure that includes the sins spoken of in this forum.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

I think the mistake we often make is in not following these guidelines. How many of us really go and approach our brother in love and make every effort to get them on the right path? More often we point out thier faults to others and write them off in our lives as unworthy.

We need to repent and do what the word says in love. Our heart should be that we would rather die than see our brother miss all that God has for him or her. Brokeness over their condition should move our hearts to share the truth with them in love. We need to prophecy to dry bones and see God bring life. We need to declare God's word over their situations and see them set free. What are we doing with the wicked church. Does our heart bleed like it is our own mother or child? Well if we are one body is should.

I don't want to judge the hearts of brothers and sisters, but I do want to have a part in speaking the word to help them be all God wants them to be.

I am actually walking in fear and trembling because the very ones I might be apt to judge on the basis of my limited knowledge by be doing the works that Christ commends.

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

and to those who prophecied and healed and cast out demons He might say, I never knew you.

Mat 5:7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

We need to be laying our lives down for others and being careful not to condemn them.

[color=0066FF]I am not saying the doesn't have many ugly blemishes, but I am asking what should we do with that information?[/color]

You're right Jay! How can we say the church is dead, truly? Or not alive? How dare we... It is alive! Jesus died for the church, and how can we say it not alive and trample upon it? For the church, in truth, is concerning the remnant everywhere, in the midst of the institutional-church etc., who are seeking God for his glory, and there are many many of them! :-)

Jordan

yes, the people are the church, and many are filthy and in need of a deep cleansing. the ephesus were considered God's people. they lost their first love. meaning they were once there and now they are not and in need of coming back or else. God rebuked them of their lukewarmness. means that God's people can backslide to lukewarmness and in need of a strong rebuke.

just like today's churches (christians). they are like the ephesus church. many were once there, but now they have lost their first love, backsliding to lukewarmness and in need of repentance.

and what about the laodiceans? they were neither hot or cold. God treated them as His own. He told the laodiceans that as many as i love, i rebuke and chasten. we know the Lord only discipline His children. God spoke to His own and said that He will vomit them out if they do not repent. thats pretty intense!

i can kinda understand why he was so hard to the lukewarmers. they are the ones who allow wolves and false converts in God's house.

today's churches are in need of strong rebuke just like the churches in revelation. true prophets are needed to cry out repent to the church (christians) and expose their nakedness (filth) that they may see their need to be clothed in Him,to be revived AGAIN to Him.

I think that if we can begin to move away from the idea that "the church" is a building, we are beginning to see something wonderful!
With that said, I would like to ask humbly whan did God give His stamp of approval to what we call church(buildings etc)?
It is really beginning to sink into my heart that we may have substituted one form of popery for another. By this I mean that in most "churches" there is one man whose interpretations of the Scriptures are what everyone must go with to be on the team. This leads to division with the other groups in the town, because they believe that everything they believe is "the truth" and therefore everyone else is wrong or less spiritual. But the Scriptures tell us "the Head of every man is Christ". He is my authority, He is my Teacher.
What we call "church" is a system that for the most part does not exist to bring people under the Headship of Christ, but rather under the headship of man. The system is flawed and people suffer because of it.
I firmly believe there must be another "reformation" where the people are given the Scriptures, and men preach and serve to bring men to Christ not to themselves, and not because they can gain something from them. If you think about it what happens most of the time when you meet another Christian(professing or otherwise)? The first question out is, "where do you go to church?, or "where do you fellowship?"
Then if you dare to say something other than what they want to hear, it is greeted with, "you should come to my church" but, and here is the problem, if we are both in the Body of Christ are we not the Church? It's people, not temples made with hands, but temples of flesh in which God dwells.
Forgive if I am rambling, but this is something God has really been burning into my heart. :-)

Dear roaringlamb,

You are absolutely correct that the church is a living entity not a building. I we would recognise this fact we would have an unseemed fellowship with each other. Good point.

12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.

1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.

1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:

1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.

1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

It is difficult to see how it all fits together, I think that is why folks opt for the easy way of "we have always done it this way" rather than seeking what God might approve of.
It's the joy of being in the "family of God" that should bring us together. I know that even in my natural family, if I am upset with a family member, it is almost impossible to hold a grudge against them for very long, but how much more under the all seeing eye of our Father in Heaven?
Then of course we must also point out that there needs to be discernment as to who is in the Family, and who is not. For instance, if someone came to my front door, and began to tell me that they were in my family, yet could not declare how they were in my family, I would have doubts about their sincerity. But if someone had the "birthmarks" of being in my family, then boy oh boy, how sweet it would be to get to know them!!

K= keep I= it S= simple S= stupid (this one isn't really my choice of word but it is the way the saying goes, sorry if it offends anyone it's not meant to.)

I love truths conveyed in simplistic manner. People are more apt to rember them. Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him. There has always been 2 types of people in the congregation, the upright who fear the Lord and thoughs who don't, not all Israel i Israel. I personally believe that the churches in Revelation are ever present all here now, in that respect I don't follow dispensationalists.
BTW hypocrisy is a picture word in the NT and is that of a play actor, someone who is one thing in church and another at home and another in thier respective work places, one person many faces.

As to your opening statement I agree, much is wrong with the American church, but much is right also
:-)

Roniya's: And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because [u]is it not the glory of God that is at stake here?[/u] We are the Bride of Christ, it is possible for our garments to be dirty, but the Blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse away ALL filthiness.

I think of Romans 1:21 and the people who did not honor God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is what is mainly at stake; that folk consider themselves Christians but have not exalted God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is a product of a multitude of spurious conversions.

I hear over and over again that people are 'against' the Church if they speak up against things that are going on. I do not agree with that unless the person is intentionally coming against the Church for the sake of tearing her down. We need to provoke one another to love and to good works. Sometimes that requires bringing up certain goings on such as A.W. Tozer pointed out. People have lost their sense of being born again and have yielded to logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

Roniya's: And those who are revived and real with God will be burdened for their fellow brethren to get right with God, because [u]is it not the glory of God that is at stake here?[/u] We are the Bride of Christ, it is possible for our garments to be dirty, but the Blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse away ALL filthiness.

I think of Romans 1:21 and the people who did not honor God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is what is mainly at stake; that folk consider themselves Christians but have not exalted God [u]as[/u] God. I think this is a product of a multitude of spurious conversions.

I hear over and over again that people are 'against' the Church if they speak up against things that are going on. I do not agree with that unless the person is intentionally coming against the Church for the sake of tearing her down. We need to provoke one another to love and to good works. Sometimes that requires bringing up certain goings on such as A.W. Tozer pointed out. People have lost their sense of being born again and have yielded to logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

Dear Roaringlamb,

What we call "church" is a system that for the most part does not exist to bring people under the Headship of Christ, but rather under the headship of man.

Sometime ago I encountered a group of believers from Nigeria. They were in a shopping center in the neighborhood I lived in passing out literature. After talking to one of them, they invited me to come and meet the pastor, so I did.

As we all talked together the pastor made a point which I think was along the same lines as what you stated here. He brought up the question of why the soldiers, when they came to arrest the Lord Jesus, had to ask who He was. Why, was it, so his point seemed to be, that it was not [b]obvious[/b].

I firmly believe there must be another "reformation" where the people are given the Scriptures, and men preach and serve to bring men to Christ not to themselves, and not because they can gain something from them.

One of the things I found so refreshing about the ministry of Ray Comfort was this very emphasis, that of seeking to introduce people to the saviour, apart from any other motives. Before this I had become very frustrated with the idea of seeking to get people to come to [i]Church[/i], something which was strongly emphasised in the congregation I attended.

Chris

I actually just wrote this in a post today:

I think it’s good to be reminded about the impact we can have on the atheist. After all statistics say that 85% of America claim to be Christian/believers of God, which is complete falicy. As has been claimed by several preachers/evangelists, I to venture to say that only 13% of America may be a true follower of Christ. So what does this mean? Not only are there a mass number of non-believers and atheists that walk the streets of America, but our churches are sick - full of people who don’t have a clue, and pastors who cut and paste their own ideology into Scripture and call it truth.

How sad it is that America has a sick church. ‘The church’ is supposed to be the healthy place for the sick to come to, but it has now become sick itself and very contagious. America has a high percentage of supposed believers because America looks at the church and sees that it isn’t much different then itself. For example… I know a couple that claim to be Christian because they voted for Bush. It doesn’t matter that he looks at porn or is an alcoholic. As long as he and his wife go to church on Easter and Christmas and send a number of “Christian” email fwds. every few months, then he “knows” he is heavenbound. Our churches are filled with much of the similiar. Sure we have the congregants that consistantly attend, but it’s “ok” to consistantly sin, because after all God is full of grace and will forgive everytime we do it. And many pastors follow this same pattern.

I wrote this, also knowing that, yes, there are some vibrant, living churches in America, however I think the church in general is walking a very thin line in what Scripture actually says and what we want Scripture to say, so that it makes us feel a little easier about the sin we partake of on a daily basis.

I think part of the reason for the carnality in the church in the USA is because it costs us very little in comparison to the church in other countries, many of which can cost them thier lives. I believe that difficult times ahead will cause us to re-evaluate how much and what our faith means to us. In the face of persecution and death what choices will we make. It will separate the sheep from the goats.

I know a couple that claim to be Christian because they voted for Bush. It doesn’t matter that he looks at porn or is an alcoholic. As long as he and his wife go to church on Easter and Christmas and send a number of “Christian” email fwds. every few months, then he “knows” he is heavenbound.

These people do not constitute the Church of Christ. God does not factor these people in when he is dealing with the Church. These are lost people who claim salvation but they are under the wrath of God. It is not right to say that God will punish the Church for the sins of the world.

Honestly, why would God punish the Church for the world's sins?

I hear over and over again that people are 'against' the Church if they speak up against things that are going on. I do not agree with that unless the person is intentionally coming against the Church for the sake of tearing her down. We need to provoke one another to love and to good works. Sometimes that requires bringing up certain goings on such as A.W. Tozer pointed out. People have lost their sense of being born again and have yielded to logical deductions drawn from proof texts.