A refutation of the five points of Calvinism

I did not post this to try to start a debate or to change anyone. It is a very good study. Don't be afraid to re-examine.

This particular study is a refutation of the five points of Calvinism. More specifically, it is a response to a booklet titled, TULIP: What We Believe about the Five Points of Calvinism by John Piper.

[color=CC0000]My nick name being tjservant and his name being David Servant is purely coincidental. [/color]

[b][color=000000][font=Arial]The Five Points of Calvinism Considered[/font][/color][/b]
By David Servant

Introduction

Calvinistic theology is usually explained by focusing on the five major Calvinistic doctrines, which are: (1) Total Depravity, (2) Unconditional Election, (3) Limited Atonement, (4) Irresistible Grace and (5) Perseverance of the Saints. All five points are more or less related to each other, so that one has a hard time accepting or rejecting one point without doing the same with the other four. They are easily remembered by using the acronym TULIP.

This particular study is a refutation of the five points of Calvinism. More specifically, it is a response to a booklet titled, TULIP: What We Believe about the Five Points of Calvinism by John Piper.

My purpose in writing is to clearly show where Calvinism contradicts Scripture and logic, and to challenge Calvinists to consider a different position. Calvinism is flawed on at least three levels: (1) by the focus on certain “supportive” scriptures and the ignoring of scores of scriptures that clearly contradict Calvinistic interpretation of the “supportive” ones (2) by unnatural and forced interpretations of certain scriptures and (3) by faulty logic that often contradicts itself. When we take the whole balance of Scripture, accept the most natural interpretation of what is written, and maintain a logic that is consistent, we do not arrive at the five points of Calvinism.

I hope that my comments are not taken to be against Calvinists, but against the doctrines of Calvinism, because I love and respect any Calvinist whose Lord is Jesus. I have enjoyed other writings by John Piper as well as other Calvinists, and I often serve in ministry along side of Calvinistic Christians who are devoted servants of Christ. I have, however, written rather passionately on some points, because I am passionate for God’s glory. If those passionate points seem harsh, please forgive me.

Near the end of his booklet, Piper quotes legendary Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, who said that he began as an Arminian (Arminians disagree with all five points of Calvinism), like everyone else. This is a telling remark because it is so true. No one begins as a Calvinist. They only become Calvinists as they are taught Calvinism. Piper’s own testimony is no different. He admits “many years of struggle” (p. 1, prgh. 4) before he was able to accept Calvinism. Perhaps even more difficult than the struggle to accept Calvinism is the struggle to reject it after one has struggled so hard to accept it. But it can, and has, been done.

John Piper writes, “We are open to changing any of our ideas which can be shown to contradict the truth of Scripture.” I’m glad to know that, because I am about to show how Piper’s ideas contradict the truth of Scripture. May I say that I am also open to scrutiny of my comments by anyone who presents a logical and scriptural argument, as I too, like so many Calvinists, am sincerely desirous of understanding God’s truth. Although I have given this paper to a number of Calvinists, I'm still waiting for any refutation. If you are a Calvinist who can't refute what I've written, you are not a Calvinist at all. If you cannot defend what you say you believe, you don't really believe it.

How difficult it is to truly be open to truth that challenges our long-held beliefs! May God help us all, by His grace, to comprehend His great plan of salvation.

[color=990000]This is the link to the rest of the article, it is quite lengthy.[/color]

[url=http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism/calvin_one.htm]The Five Points of Calvinism Considered By David Servant [/url]

[color=660000]God bless[/color]

[color=990000]TJ[/color]

Why must God through ages past use all kinds of works by man to show him that man cannot please God no matter what he does. That is by mans own innocence, Lost, by man's own conscience, deprived of innocence, man cannot govern himself, man cannot keep laws, man cannot save himself. God has said by His Son, Ye must be born again. Just what does this mean? It takes a heavenly person to see the things of the Kingdom of God. How can any man be heavenly or see the Kingdom of God. Only three that I know of, Enoch an Elijah an Moses, "Mount of Transfiguration", these three are the only ones to see the Kingdom and be there, except Jesus Christ, that I know of. God must put another Person in anyone that has been convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is the Person that will be put into that believer. God is Justified in making Christ the new life of a new Creature, that is a Christ-one, Christian, who were first called this in Antioch through Paul.

This revelation was given to Paul by Jesus Christ Himself and so speak all of his epistles. That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". In Christ and Christ in us, this is salvation of the believer and it has nothing to do with the believer except to believe what God has said about man's deprived state before his new birthing by Christ in him, who is the only Savior that will save to the utmost.

I don't know if this is Calvinism, but it is the Word of God, There is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ and only one way to believe in Jesus Christ and that is revealed by the Father. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

In Christ a new creation race of People by the birth of Christ in them of the Seed of our Father: Phillip

Actually about 90% of mainstream denominations agree with at least 3-4 letters of TULIP... Heck, even as a Southern Baptist (and you know we hate hyper calvinists) I can't just totally dismiss the whole acronym for a mistaken letter or two.

Can a Christian lose his or her Salvation?
One major debate within Christian circles is the question of whether or not a Christian can lose his or her salvation.
Arminians argue that true believers can sin so much that they lose their faith and perish. Some Christians respond by arguing that once a person professes faith in Jesus, he is eternally secure in his salvation and—even if he commits complete apostasy (“falls away”) and vocally rejects Jesus Christ—will still go to heaven, for “once saved, always saved.” In light of
the biblical doctrine of predestination, how should we understand the security we have under God’s care? There have been three main approaches to the question:

1. Classic Arminianism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
“The believer who loses his faith is damned.”

2. Antinomianism
• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers can lose their faith.
• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.
“The believer who loses his faith is saved.”

3. Classic Calvinism
• One must persevere in faith to be saved.
• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.
• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.
• Those who “lose” their faith never had it to begin with.
• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.
“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had it—or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.”

Proponents of the first two approaches quote biblical references, but each must strain to explain away the other group's biblical data.

How can an Arminian read Romans 8, then tell true believers that they may screw up and go to
hell??? Then again, how can Charles Stanley read Hebrews 6 and 10 and tell unbelievers who once professed faith not
to worry, that they will be saved???

Any true biblical teaching must “fit” with ALL the biblical data, without pitting one text against another and without having to explain away a single “jot or tittle” of God's inerrant Word. I believe that only the
classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.
Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and they’re right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldn’t use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and “once saved, always saved.” But both of these views are wrong is assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is “a gift of God—not by works, lest any man boast.” Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).
Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. As the Westminster Assembly concluded, Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to be chief among the apostles! Two biblical principles must
be held side-by-side:
1. You Must Persevere until the End: God's Requirement of His People
God does not merely command us to begin to believe for a time, and then fall away. He requires us to continue to believe until the end, living lives of repentance and covenant faithfulness. Granted, He does not ask for a perfect faith, but He
does ask for a real faith, one that produces real, lasting change.
• Colossians 1:21-23
• 1 John 1:5-10; 3:3-6
• Hebrews 10:26-31
• Hebrews 12:1

2. You Will Persevere Until the End: God's Preservation of His People
We will persevere because God preserves us. God will keep us from falling—not one will be lost of all those who belong
to the Son. True believers are not able to leave Christ, for Christ is at work within them.
• John 6:38-40
• John 10:28-29
• Romans 8:28-39
• Philippians 1:4-6
• Philippians 2:12-13
• 1 John 2:19
This first set of texts cannot be used to refute the second (Arminianism); nor can the second set of texts be used to refute the first (cheap grace). The point that makes the two compatible is the biblical teaching that faith (while commanded of everyone) is a gift from God to His elect. If faith is simply a human action of a free will, then it can be lost. But if saving faith is God's gift, then it cannot be lost. Can professing Christians fall away? Yes, and they will perish. Can
true Christians fall away? No, for they are kept by the invincible power of God in Christ. The Bible teaches us that professing Christians who leave the faith were never truly believers (1 John 2:19; and notice the qualification even in Hebrew
s 10:39).

Please be open minded and read the article. I want to hear responses to the article. It is very good. Please read it.

If one can loose their salvation, then his salvation is not of God. In loosing it, he must be the one to obtain it. Salvation is of God, by Jesus Christ birthed in you and God is no abortionist. "If" Christ is in you, you did nothing to put Him there, Christ will finish His work in each of His Father's Children. Amen

IN, that is "IN" Christ: Phillip

Getting saved does not make you a robot, but it does give you the ability to love God with a love that He can accept, the love of Christ in you. God showed me through a dream, yes a dream, I could see a light and ran after it because I was in pure darkness, black as sin. The harder I ran the father and dimmer the light got. When I stopped running the light came to me. When the light engulfed me, the blackness began to go away and the light got brighter and brighter, then the light beckoned me to bask in its warmth and the warmth filled me and the light and warmth began to emanate from me and was taken in by the great light encompassing me.

It took 14 years to understand the dream. Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

My love before Christ was birthed in me was not good, in fact it was as dirty rags to God, black as sin, I loved to get something back. The love of Christ is pure and seeks nothing in return, no matter what is ask of it, only to obey and seek to love as it is loved, pleasing the One that is Loving Me first.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

No man can love his wife as Christ loved the Church, but when the Love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by our being born again into the Spirit of Christ and He in new creation creatures, then a man, he seeking Christ and His Love, can then begin to learn how to love his wife as Christ Love the Church and gave Himself for Her. Renew our minds.

To love God is a good work, to love your wife is a good work, but it is not until Christ is birthed in you that a person can love with the Love of Christ. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Tts 2:14 Who gave Himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This is not a robot, but a born again creature with the nature of God's Love now in Him and the creature can now love as God Loves you. A wonderful Love that man cannot attain with the Love of God in him, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Loose salvation? Not for a second.

In Christ: Phillip

[size=large]will someone[/size]
[size=x-large]Please[/size]
[size=xx-large]Read The Article[/size]
[size=large]and respond[/size]
I have heard hundreds of scriptures and peoples ideas on this subject, and while I respect them, I really am needing help from my brothers and sisters in regards to
[size=large]this article[/size]

Please, if anyone has time this week, give it a read and let me know what you think

God bless

TJ

i dident read the whole thing, he does make some points that made me think...

like

Calvinists often decry the position of non-Calvinists, accusing them of making man responsible for his own salvation (which is a false accusation). Yet Calvinists make God responsible for the damnation of billions! Clearly, the God of Calvinism hates people even before they are born, when He determines that their eternal fate will be incarceration and agony in hell. If God is solely responsible for the salvation of certain people, He is also solely responsible for the damnation of everyone else, because only He could have rescued them from their fate, but He decided not to do so. And that decision was not predicated on God’s inability to stop sin, but His unwillingness to stop it. Thus God wills sin in select people’s lives. To the Calvinist, man doesn’t stop sinning because he has no choice, but because God, who can stop sin, chooses not to! God is thus even more “totally depraved” than we are!

he got a point there
but what is it whit the article you want response on? its quite long and there are very much to respond to......
is there any special parts in the article you are thinking about or just if we agrees whit what he writes?

God is thus even more “totally depraved” than we are!

I think an apologetically- minded Calvinist would probably argue that God defines what is good. God's character is what defines good. So, what ever God does it good because He alone is good.

They might say, "I get my definition of 'good' from how the Bible describes God. The Bible describes God as being absolutely sovereign in that He causes every action. And what do you apeal to for you definition of 'good?' Yourself?" The argument would then be that you are appealing to yourself as the one who dictates what is ‘good’ rather than the Bible.

I'm not Calvinist, but that is a brand of Christian apologetics that comes out of the Calvinist school of thought. It's called presuppositional apologetics.

hmmhmm wrote:

but what is it whit the article you want response on? its quite long and there are very much to respond to......
is there any special parts in the article you are thinking about or just if we agrees whit what he writes?

I guess I want to hear responses to the article in general and to his conclusion paragraph. And to do that one would need to read the entire article. This article has been sent to John Piper and other “big dogs”. This is his conclusion.

May I now ask every reader: Did you begin reading this paper as a Calvinist? If so, do you still believe in the doctrines of Calvinism? If you do, then you must be able to refute every bit of logic and Scripture I've used in this paper by showing that what I've written contradicts Scripture and/or logic. I am still waiting for the very first refutation from a Calvinist. If you remain a Calvinist and are not able to refute what I've written, then you remain a Calvinist from some motivation other than obedience to Christ and His Word. Is it because of pride that you are unable to admit that you have been wrong? Or is it because of fear of what other Calvinists might think if you defect from their doctrinal system? If either is true, then I must ask an even a more searching question: Is Jesus your Lord?

He adds

I hope that my comments are not taken to be against Calvinists, but against the doctrines of Calvinism, because I love and respect any Calvinist whose Lord is Jesus. I have enjoyed other writings by John Piper as well as other Calvinists, and I often serve in ministry along side of Calvinistic Christians who are devoted servants of Christ. I have, however, written rather passionately on some points, because I am passionate for God’s glory. If those passionate points seem harsh, please forgive me.

Peace be with you

TJ

Hi everyone.

Dear tjservant and others, I wonder if we as a people have made more of this issue than God would have intended for us. Is this something that He has even intended for us to understand? And then, the sort of questions that are asked, and the tone, and the sort of aspersions that are cast upon others and even God?

Take for instance the portion of this article which our brother Christian had posted. Suppose the things there were true, and I am not saying they are. Who are we to make moral judgements of God? Of what He should or should not do? Are we, who are blasphemers, adulterers, idolators, murderers, fornicators, proud, diobedient to parents, covenant breakers, unthankfull, rewarders of evil for good, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God...

Are we in any postion to call our tribunal against Him and demand He answer our accusations?

I ask this from the point of view of one who has deeply struggled with these issues myself. Yet, in all my struggling, this seems to be the reply of God to me...who are you?

Well? Who are we?

[i] And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[/i]

And isn't this really the extent to which even the Apostle Paul was willing to go, to ask...

[i] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/i]

Is there really anything more beyond this that we could add?

It seems that we are confronted with two stark and opposite relaities in our existence. They being

God is good.

We are not.

Everything else should perhaps just get swallowed up inbetween.

Peace and grace be with all of you in Christ.

“Here is my question to the Calvinist: Why must we preach the gospel in order for people to be saved? If man plays no part at all in his conversion, why must he hear the gospel to be saved, as Paul says he must in Romans 10:14? A consistently logical Calvinist could never say that persuasive preaching influences the unregenerate person to yield to God, because the unregenerate person will always use his freedom to resist God (Piper, p. 9, prgh. 6). Thus the only way an unregenerate person becomes regenerate is if God sovereignly bestows upon him His irresistible grace. So all the persuasive preaching in the world won’t make a bit of difference in the saving of anyone. In fact, to even attempt to persuade someone is an attack on God’s supposed sovereign grace in salvation, because to do so implies that salvation rests, in part, on the hearer and also rests, in part, on the preacher.” David Servant

First Point: A Christian must preach the gospel because it was ordained by God to be the way that men were going to be saved.. My friend, a man is commanded to preach, and if God decides that men should be saved by preaching, then so be it. What right do we have to question the wisdom of God? Remember the gospel is POWER.. God’s POWER.. “For it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE.” 1 corth. 1.21

Sorry this is so long, but the article was long also.

Total Depravity: Psalms 14:2-3 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-13 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Even Law does not good: Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Irresistible Grace: Romans 3:21-31 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The Article comes down to, who's faith is it that brings justification through faith. If we look carefully at faith of Jesus Christ we will see that it is not our faith that we believe by but His. Romans 3:27-30 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Who is the Justifier? By who's faith?
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

"By faith" is a works faith by keeping the Law.
"Through Faith is a heavenly faith by the Faith of God to justify the circumcision and uncircumcision. For we are all saved by the Faith of Jesus Christ after Pentecost by the special conviction of the Holy Spirit to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God. Which is revealed to every man by the Father through the Holy Spirits gift of saving faith.

Galatians 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

What makes us righteous before God? "The faith of Jesus Christ". What makes us a non-sinner? "It is Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
Not that we don't sin but that God now see's us as non-sinners by His Son that is Born again in us.

Finally if you don't see the Christ in us is the only Faith, Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification, and Redemption, pleasing to God, we will never be able to answer this question, Is God in Control or is man in Control?

Tulip or Calvinism or Arminianism mean nothing, only the Word of God. Search the Scripture and See the Salvation of God, that is nothing but Christ in you the Hope of Glory and it is God who has done it, not by anything man has done or will do.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

We by our faith is it takes faith for salvation is a law we cannot keep. If Faith is By Jesus Christ it is not a law but a God ordained Law of Faith in, by, and of Jesus Christ. He Kept It and our salvation is by His fulfillment of all that The Father Gave Him to Finish. "It is Finished.

The Article conflicts itself and also scripture. Good Article by a knowledgeable Christian, but prejudiced on apologetics on super Calvinism or any other man created doctrine.

Calvin was right, only proofed by the Word of God, in the T and the I of Tulip. God is the author and finisher of our Faith. Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Also you cannot repent unless it is granted by God. Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. We can all seek repentance, but unless it is given and granted by God after Regeneration, repentance is nothing.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Not a Calvinist or Arminian, but a Christ Life, Spirit fill and taught, son of God. Who is the Great Preacher but the Christ that is Born Again in you.

In Christ: Phillip

amen brother, well put and well thought out,
love andy

Armenian, Armenianism

:-D

Just kind of word semantics Cal/Arm, I love em both, so does Jesus. It is Him we need more of, In Him, by Him, through Him, with Him and all that entails a new Person in the Believer, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" growing up into a new creature in Christ Jesus.

In Him: Phillip

No, I was just saying that it's Arminian, not Armenian. One is a teaching, the other is a people.

“Here is my question to the Calvinist: Why must we preach the gospel in order for people to be saved? If man plays no part at all in his conversion, why must he hear the gospel to be saved

He uses the gospel to bring forth salvation to show the His power in conversion. Preaching is the way God has chosen to save people. He elects the peoples unto hearing the gospel and salvation.

1 Cor 1

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the [color=0000ff]power of God. [/color]

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus,[color=0000ff] who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the LORD.”[/color]

1 Cor 2

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because [color=0000ff]they are spiritually discerned.[/color]

1 Cor 3

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, [color=0000ff]but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.[/color]