CARNAL Christians

Does anybody here believe in the "Carnal Christian" idea which means that somebody can be habitually living in sin and yet be saved?

I'm just wondering...

GraceAlone wrote:
Does anybody here believe in the "Carnal Christian" idea which means that somebody can be habitually living in sin and yet be saved?

I'm just wondering...

Notto mention [b]Hebrews 10:26[/b] [color=990000]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[/color]
This excludes the ones who "didn't know it was a sin" because [b]Hebrews 10:25[/b] [color=990000]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; [b]but exhorting one another[/b]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[/color]

When, as a body(congregation) we are to walk in the light, as he is in the light, there, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1John 1:7

i dont remember who said it but.....

ive seen as many carnal christians as i have seen holy pagans....

the corithians fell into carnality, but paul rebuked them, and later on they did repent. even though they were carnal, paul still called them christians and treated them still as God's people.

2 Corinthians 7:8-11

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

so, i believe that christians can fall back into carnality, but to stay there would be a danger.

Romans 8:5-8

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

how is it possible to live in rebellion to God and in the same time be saved?

I truly don't know the answer to this, I thought I once did.

Neil, thank you brother for your honesty and your humility. I am moved.

I say that I 'once thought I knew the answer' to some of these questions until my own life has taken some turns that I never thought would exhist. I have been faced with situations and trials, etc.. that I once thought I would know exactly how I would react and how I thought I 'should' react- and it didn't happen that way. Was I disappointed? yes. broken? yes. humbled? yes. discouraged? yes.

Like Neil, I can say that there are things that have come out of my mouth or things I have done in this past 6 months (under great trial, I might add) that I so agonized over, "What a horrible witness! What have I done? Why did I say that? My heart stinks with pride!" A couple of years ago, I would have said that I was far beyond this - that I had grown spiritually beyond this. But again, I had not been hit with the kind of trials that I have been hit with this past two years yet.

All I can say is that when these times come, when you fail at being that 'perfect' christian that you thought you could or should be -you realize that you don't deserve much of anything- yet under all that somewhere you know that Christ does love you and prays for you. [b]You realize how much more you need Christ, how much more you need His grace and mercy. You appreciate that cross like never before[/b].

I thought once that i could live in total surrender at all moments, at all hours, under all circumstances- no matter what. I was convinced that I was capable of being something other than human. But we are still human- though we have Christ living in us. We are not gods.

I probably shouldn't continue on, I will only get myself in more trouble. All I can say is that unless you have walked in someone's shoes, you can't say what you would do- because you just don't know.

This reminds me again of the "Blessedness of Winter' by Guyon that Joy (Roniya) posted. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14139&forum=34#109011

When we are under pressure, when we are being squeezed by great trials, we never know what will come out. At least I didn't. Yucky things come out for all to see. Things that you didn't know you had in your heart- anger, rebellion, unknown strongholds, etc... But it is all a process- a refining process.

So much for 'not going on' ;-)

Broken and humbled as well, Chanin

i should refrase that question, from how.... to
is it possible?

i to just came out of an enormus struggle,it was to big for me ever to manage, the pure grace and mercy of God got me thrue, i to said things im ashamed over, i did things im ashamed over, so many times ive cried to God -its enough! come back or take me home lord.... i cant take it any more, sometimes so broken over my sins and so grieved over what ive done to him, i dont know what else to do just to go down on my knees and just beg for mercy, cry for help,

but thats the difference i think, if you are not fighting and struggling against it, then we are in rebellion.... my fight is to try and stop the "rebellion" kill it, get it crusified.... sometimes it feels like im hanging there up on the cross but one arm is still free and tries to escape to continue this wicked carnal lusts and behaviors,

i like what david brainerd writes, the only thing i ever did even on the best of my days was to try and get away from God,

everything is from him.... and such a merciful and kind and loving God who would do what he did for a man such as me.... he is worth it all, every struggle every pain, every thing i have to forsake, every thing i have to leave behing...its all worth it for him

i press on...

Hi everyone.

I can empathise with both Neil and Chanin.

Brother Neil, I too was addicted to ciggaretes and to my great shame, I held on to the addiction, not for a month or two, but for nearly two years after my conversion. I say held on because I kept smoking and I think I had gotten it into my mind that it was somehow tolerated? because as far as I had decided, God had not given me the strength to quit, as if the burden for my quiting them was His responsibility and whatever the case I was not justified in smoking. I kept crying to God; nothing. Or so it seemed?

Then one morning the pastor began to rebuke the habit from the pulpit and it was as if it was a sword thrust right at me. I confessed this to him later and he said he had no idea and did not have anyone in mind. I was crushed. It hurt deeply and I think I was angry with God for sure. I laid on the couch for probably about two days in anguish. I quit them. And it hurt.

Then after this, or perhaps around the same time, I noticed a pain within my chest, right in the center. It was not physical and it seemed to get worse and worse. Well, that was maybe 3 or 4 years ago now and the pain is still with me. I have no idea what it is except that I do not at all believe it is physicall, but rather emotional or some such. I can not even describe it except that it is dull..almost gnawing, even that may not be a right description. It is not constant but comes and goes, often while I'm at work, making work very difficult to endure.

This is why I can also empathise with Chanin. During this same time I have lost the awareness of the presence of God. One night I remember having fallen asleep, kneeling, with my face buried in couch, which is the manner in which I usually pray, and I was awakened by the lyircs to a song being played on the radio. It is a contemporary song by Mark Shultz called 'He will carry me'. It was the words in the chorus in particular where it says

And even though
I feel so lonely
like I have never
felt before
He never said
it would easy
but You said You'd see
me through the storm.

And those words capture so much. I remember the Bishop of the Church we attended saying from the pulpit, before we moved away, how the sorest trial you can face is the absence of the presence of God. I believe it.

Well, that's where I'm at. I so understand what Chanin means about things being brought out you had no idea where there. Thinking... grasping... for the hidden purposes of God in all this, I think as much as anything it could be to reduce me to nothing in my own eyes. Which is the way it should be.

I think I know a bit of what Job was saying here when he cried

[i]...the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit[/i]

God is good. God is just. God is just in His dealings with me.

But I can tell you, that confession is much harder to make with your heart when you are in pain.

Patiently, by God's grace, yours,

Christopher Joel Dandrow

This thread has brought tears to my eyes. Thank you all for your honesty. I will never, while on this Earth, understand all the things of the Bible, but I know it is a fight at times. I remember hearing a song by Derek Webb that says “welcome to the struggle” in it. How true.

God bless

TJ

how is it possible to live in rebellion to God and in the same time be saved?

what do you think of the corithians?

theres mention here going thru trials. trials and falling into sin is different. God allows trials to come our way that we would see our need to be more dependent on Him and make us more genuine in the Lord (2 cor.1:9, 1 peter4:12-13)

if we fall into habitual sin that is our fault, we choose to do so, the Lord did not bring that upon us, but He did give us promises to hold onto, knowing that nothing is too hard for God in helping us to overcome.

i believe that a genuine christian can fall back to habitual sin just like the corithians, galations, and laodiceans and in need to cry out for repentance again just like the corithians, galations, and laodiceans.

I immensely dislike this expression “carnal Christian”. We toss it around like a quick diagnosis for those who are not shiny and clean. Really we are just playing spiritual doctor on others, without a clue what we are talking about. Let’s not make boxes to fit people into.

Remember, it is when we are looking and feeling the finest spiritually, that we ourselves may be “carnal” - that is dependent on our own righteousness. On the other hand, when we are fallen badly, we are most aware of our wretchedness. We are closest to the ground, and that is a move towards Jesus.

Christians tend to have an aversion to failure. They hate anything that is messy and unwhitewashed. They descend like vultures on those who are messing up, those who toss out a cuss word, have a temper tantrum, smoke a cigarette. They wag their fingers. They shame. They scold. They toss Bible verses. But they fail to see that God himself has been sifting the sinner, refining his faith, and making it stronger.

Neil, Chanin, and really all of us: Each failure is not necessarily a step backwards, but a step forward! Whenever a temptation or trial causes another layer of righteousness to fall away, we behave wretchedly. How can we not! The temptation came when we didn’t expect it. Think of Peter when he denied Christ. Peter was being sifted, an important process in the preparation of his future ministry as an apostle. Jesus did not scold him, but prayed for his faith!

God could protect us from falling if he wanted. But that doesn’t mature us. Our failures are necessary, and if we can accept that in each other, then we can participate in God’s program rather than work against it.

We have many Biblical examples of spiritual heroes whose failings were the very thing that brought good. Ex the sin of Joseph’s brothers turned out for their good. Just look at the beautiful psalmody that proceeded from David after his failure. What about Moses’ intercessions, Abraham’s supreme sacrifice, etc.

From No Rival Love: “In each successive test, God required Abraham to make a further break with some natural desire of his own will.” by D. Small

Diane

I wonder about this as well. I think too about how there have been times where I have so grieved my Lord by a sinful action, or word spoken. Then I think about how I deal with the conviction that comes.
I think this word conviction is what separates the Christian from the non Christian. I know that before I called Christ Lord, and was born into the Kingdom, there was no conviction for much of what I cannot even think of doing now. Why? Because His seed is in me.
I wrestle to understand just how sanctified a person may be this side of eternity, I truly believe there is a work of God's Spirit that enables a person to be holy in thought, action, and deed. Sadly though I have yet to come to this point.
Then again I think of that passage in Hebrews where it says, "whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth." I wonder why would He need to chasten His child if there was nothing left that was unlike Himself, as it goes on to say that the chastisement is to make us partakers of His holiness.
For me I would be concerned if I could sin without conviction, as the very conviction drives me to His feet, and helps me to understand just how much grace I am in need of, and how dangerous it is when I think I have everything together.
I am in no way condoning sinful behaviour from Christians, but I have yet to meet anyone who in a practical and real sense with all honesty can say they do not sin at all.
Let's not turn this into a duel of scripture, but rather maybe those among us who have gone into the blessing could share some of their experiences prior to and after the blessing, then we who lag behind could be strengthened to "catch up" by His grace.

I also struggled with smoking for almost a year after coming to Christ.
But a brother lovingly asked me to think about how it would look to people around me, how it might cause more harm than good to those I was sharing with etc., and by the sheer mercy and grace of God was I able to stop.
Every so often out of nowhere a desire comes to smoke, and it is a battle not to, but the Spirit mortifies the deed, and I go on.
Neil you will be in my prayers

Paul in almost every single letter warns churches of the possibility to stray from truth and to disobey. Christians are capable of straying - plain and simple.

We have to settle the issue that when a Christian is saved he has the Holy Ghost but also flesh attached to him that must be overpowered each day by the indwelling Life. Some have the idea that when we are saved we no longer have a flesh anymore. This is contrary to the Bible. Day by day we must fully depend on God to live this life. No confidence in the flesh whatsoever

For the Christian, this flesh has been quickened so when it is planted in the ground as a corn of wheat it will bring forth the fruit of the owner of the field it is planted in, to bring forth fruit for the intended Owner, which is the Seed of Christ sown by The Sower our Father, God.

The flesh on this earth can never be perfect, but it can be controlled by or crucifying it daily and carrying the Cross that saves us, that is The Cross of Christ. Where is the Cross carried? It is carried in the Spirit of Christ that has been born again in our hearts and by Christ baptizing us into the Holy Spirit. Then His burden is light.

In Christ: Phillip

Sister Kristy asked:

Does anybody here believe in the "Carnal Christian" idea which means that somebody can be habitually living in sin and yet be saved?

Paul exhorts the Corinthians...

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Paul is teaching that "babes in Christ" have not yet learned to listen to the Spirit. Paul points to the fact that most of the Corinthians still look to men for direction. He is not necessarily teaching that the christian who remains subject to the carnal mind is "habitually living in sin" but that these "babes in Christ" have not yet come to rely on the Spirit for their daily sustenance.

Paul teaches that these christians have not yet come to understand the Spiritual life.

How many of us claim we are under Calvin, Arminius, Luther, Wesley, or Augustine? There is very little other men can do to ween other believers from their dependence upon their own carnal mind. We must all come to be dependent upon the Spirit for our daily living water.

In Christ
Jeff

In terms of overcoming sin...

My one friend smoked for many years, and then he came to the Lord. He experienced a powerful conversion under the AOG denomination. He testified that God also healed him of smoking and talked about how the Holy Spirit cleaned his lungs out in a moments time. He tried to smoke two days later and became sick. For about a year he went without smoking. Then came a time of stress where he started smoking again.

This man still loves the Lord greatly...

The second friend also had a powerful conversion. He was a punk rocker doing speed and alcohol. The day of his conversion he no longer had a desire for anything that would alter his physological condition. He no longer wanted to get high. Ten years later this is still true. Yet my friend struggles in different areas of his life that were not immediately transformed by our Savior.

This man still loves his Lord...

I myself have grown over the last ten years...but the last three have been like Peter when he got out of the boat to meet Jesus who was walking on water. As the seas began to boil around Peter...he took his eyes off of Jesus and began to sink into the water...

This section of Scripture was given to me a week before the last 3 years started...I thought I knew what it was about back then...yet I am still learning that lesson...

Just some thoughts about how some believers are learning day by day...

In Christ
Jeff

Galatians 5:21

21 envy, murders,[a] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who [b]practice[/b] such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 3:3
for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

James 3:16
For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

some verses to help us to see what sin is. like for example, a lot of people would not think that practicing sin like envy is a terrible thing (man's opinion), but by scripture it is.

thru God we are able to overcome these things, where we are not in daily practice of it. not that pride does not show up here and there, but it should not be a daily practice if we say we are truly abiding in God.

for example, some christians think that you can't get rid of jelousy. that is part of you. i believe that is wrong. i use to be full of jelousy. jelousy is so evil, its like hate, and hate is like murder. a person can not abide in the Lord if they are in practice of jelousy all the time. God broke me from this, now i can say that i do not have this sin. it is not a PRACTICE in my life, but it may rise up a little at times, and thats when i quickly go to Jesus and confess before Him and he cleanses me from it before it gets to a habit (1 john 1:9), and so i go on and walk clean before Him again.

so the corithians truly fell into sin, but they repented later.