What makes anyone believe God's Grace to be unmerited? Who said that it was --- where did that term come from? Perhaps it is something that needs to be qualified so as to "get it right", that other scripture that relies upon a most correct understanding of Grace, be more completely understood?
What say you all?
Orm
Ormly,
I have one question for you: how do you define grace? Is it mercy? Enabling power from God? Another definition? The definition will determine the answer, IMHO.
ginnyrose
I agree. The fact we don't define correctly is the major reason we have missed out on much the gospel is actually saying.
I believe God's Grace, as best given me, is the revelation of the presence of God Himself. That's why the scripture can say in Titus 2.11 that it was given to all that all might see and, by faith believing, receive. Of course, we know the rest of the story, some do and some don't for reasons argued about from what I believe is a wrong understanding.
One more thing --- I believe God's Grace is so revealed that one must respond ---one way or the other. So revealed, leaving man without excuse.
Orm
Dear Ormly,
God's grace simply means God's "favor", something God gives according to His own will. More or less, it is His willful choice of love toward someone. This grace is "unmerited" because we have done nothing to deserve or earn it. God gives His love, not because of who we are, but because of who He is.
It is often difficult for us fallen creatures to ever imagine such a thing. When we give love to someone, it is due to a reason. We love person X, because he or she is Y. We love God because of what He died for us on the cross. However, God loves because God is love. He has no other reason. We did nothing to earn this love or deserve it. His love is entirely His choice.
Blake
beenblake wrote:
Dear Ormly,God's grace simply means God's "favor", something God gives according to His own will. More or less, it is His willful choice of love toward someone. This grace is "unmerited" because we have done nothing to deserve or earn it. God gives His love, not because of who we are, but because of who He is.
It is often difficult for us fallen creatures to ever imagine such a thing. When we give love to someone, it is due to a reason. We love person X, because he or she is Y. We love God because of what He died for us on the cross. However, God loves because God is love. He has no other reason. We did nothing to earn this love or deserve it. His love is entirely His choice.
Blake
Dear Blake, I sense you are sensitive to the Lord but what you posit is the wrong thinking I mentioned we have been living with too long that has shortchanged us in the purposes of God.
#1. Unmerited favor is not a Biblical term.
#2. It can be readily seen that God's favor, hence His Grace, is always conditional as is His promises.
#3. You make no mention of Folk before the Cross.
#4. This is NOT something someone earns as a works but rather because of his response to God who has revealed Himself. Response is NOT a work but rather the key that unlocks the door to God's Grace. He looks for ours. Bear we with me on this but bring your objections.
"But he gives more grace. .........God resists the proud, but gives grace uto the humble." James 4:6 (KJV)
Being humble is not a works issue.
Thanks,
Orm
Side note: You might want to review the "Concerning God's Grace" thread where I posted every verse in the Bible with the word Grace in it. Read just Genesis references where the word "if" is heavily used.
Grace= God giving us something we don't deserve
Mercy= God not giving us something we do deserve
Not very deep but profoundly true.
lamuskrat wrote:
Grace= God giving us something we don't deserveMercy= God not giving us something we do deserve
Not very deep but profoundly true.
But submitted with old thinking, without scriptural support --- unless you have some.
I repeat, I submitted every verse in the bible where the word grace may be found. Surely you can make a case using some of them. Please observe context when submitting what you believe as support.
If you are young in this, don't be afraid to take this time to learn. I'm old and refuse NOT to be rectified in my thinking. In this we all might learn a thing or two.
Orm
Ormly,
You want chapter/verse to prove the point...sorry, but I cannot find one for what I am about to say.
Many have said we do not deserve the mercy and grace of God. I disagree. Actually, I wish someone who show me a chapter/verse to prove that we do not deserve God's mercy and love! Or am I ignorant? Anyway....
If I had birthed a child, who did not ask to be conceived and then born, then abandoned it, what would people think? I would be considered cruel, ruthless, coldhearted, and above all, unloving. (And where does this concept come from?) If God had done the same with humans, knowing full well what Adam and Eve were going to do and then not provide for them would have been the epitome of cruelty which in reality is what the devil does!
Logic, brother. But to me the mercy, grace of God is all rooted in love, in caring for the weak, knowing what is ahead and providing for it. Can't prove it by chapter/verse but to me the concept is woven throughout the entire Word of God, culminated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Now what say?
ginnyrose
Blake is absolutely right, and I must diabolically disagree with Ormly. We were DEAD in our sins. How can a dead man do anything to merit God's grace? He had every right to leave us in our state of wickedness, to destroy us forever and "wipe the slate clean." But it brought Him more glory to greatly humble Himself to look upon our plight, and do the impossible -- give His own Son for our redemption.
Dear brothers/sisters, I sense a very low view of God's righteousness in this discussion, and an exalted view of humans' so-called "worth." We were worth nothing until Christ shed His blood for us. It's not 99% God's work and 1% our work that saves us -- if so, we would deserve 1% of glory, God forbid. It's all HIS doing.
Christ died a bloody death on the cross for me, and the only thing I brought to the table was the sin that made it necessary.
Personally I believe that understanding the Grace of God is much like taking the ocean up in your arms, or at least as much as you can, and calling it the ocean. I'm not sure the bible defines Grace, but in the same way people place a definition on faith using hebrews 11:1, which really is no definition, I suppose people will try as they will to define Grace.
Ormy--do you give definitions or explainations of.....???? :-(
You make me weep, my Brother... for joy!
If I read you correctly, what you see is what I see. The ocean of God's Grace who can define it? Surely it is His Favor, but much more in Riches that can only be summed up in Christ Jesus.
This is incomplete but I wanted to get this much out for our thinking. I pray it will stir and bless someone:
From Eph 1.7
He knows our frame and our striving to enter His kingdom, if indeed striving can be seen as the normal Christian life. Because of this striving to enter, from the desire of our heart, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus who makes intercession on our behalf when we miss the mark. [Door]
The riches of His Grace here mentioned can be seen as no less than Christ Jesus, Himself. Hence, if we turn from Him, we turn from the riches of His Grace. So our meriting God's Grace lies with our being in Christ who did merit it.
We must come to the understanding that our redemption is for His sake, therefore it is He, who merited God’s Grace in His flesh, who received it in full measure while in His Flesh and who is now our saving Grace, [Rom.5.1] if we are found in Him. If we are found in Him by Father it will be witnessed by Him as our striving to be like Him, i.e., Christ Jesus, the process whereby we are conformed to His image.
Those who speak of unmerited favor have shortsighted/incomplete view of salvation, believing it only to be about fire insurance. This is detraction from the full truth of God’s saving Grace, whether it is done in ignorance or by design. It harms His purpose for His son. He saves that we might become joint heirs with Jesus, which is joy unspeakable and full of Glory the which has never been fully told.... nor will it ever be. It will take eternity with Him to fathom it all out.
Once saved, if we don’t pursue son-ship, a striving after it by learning God’s Grace and that it is for us that we enter Kingdom living, we will miss out on His ultimate intention for Himself. Question is: Do seek Him simply for who He is or for ourselves --- His sake or ours?
Ormly,
You have started two threads concerning the same topic. Can we please keep one thread for this topic.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14366&forum=35]Concerning God's Grace
Ormly you said something interesting on the 'tribes' thread that correlates to this discussion.
Many in the world wait to hear this message. They wait with prepared hearts because they have recognized Grace as presented them to their understanding and live according to it, however imperfect their endeavors. It is a heart issue and God foreknows who they are who have a heart for Him.
Jesus Said, "Go and make disciples". He never said to go and get people saved. It should be obvious that what I am saying is that they already are and the message given should be about the kingdom of God and its Leadership.
Please explain this further. Are you saying that it is possible for an adult who has never heard/read the gospel or about Jesus to go to heaven when they die?
Dear Ormly,
#1. Unmerited favor is not a Biblical term.
What is a Biblical term? How do we define a word as being Biblical or not?
Titus 3:5a (NAS) He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy
#2. It can be readily seen that God's favor, hence His Grace, is always conditional as is His promises.
On what condition?
Titus 2:11 (NAS) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Grace is given, but in order for anyone to have grace, it must be accepted. Grace cannot "be" with someone, until they have it. That is why it is also said:
Ephesians 6:24 (NAS) Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with incorruptible love.
#3. You make no mention of Folk before the Cross.
My friend, I am not sure we entirely disagree. If you were to develop my whole theology based upon that one comment above, you would missing out on so much. You asked about grace and not about faith. Salvation comes through both grace and faith. Paul said:
Ephesians 2:8 (NAS) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Grace is God's part and faith is our part. The work is entirely of God, all we must do is trust in God (believe in Jesus). When we come before the cross, we are convicted of sin. However, God is offering forgiveness if we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord. God is offering a gift, all we must do is accept it.
God's love is not conditional. God is offering His love. However, we do not have His love unless we accept it.
God is seeking unity by love (a marriage), and such a unity comes by both people giving love to each other. God gives His love by grace. We give our love through faith. When God affords His grace and we accept that grace through faith, The Holy Spirit unites as one with our spirit, thus bringing about salvation. It involves participation from both God and us.
#4. This is NOT something someone earns as a works but rather because of his response to God who has revealed Himself.
Indeed, with this I agree. Though I would add: "who has revealed Himself through Christ."
Response is NOT a work but rather the key that unlocks the door to God's Grace.
Here is where we disagree. You would believe that God has given grace only to those who have received it. However, I believe that God has given grace to all humans who have ever lived. Jesus died for all. God loves everyone.
This is made clear in several scriptures:
Titus 2:11 (quoted above)
2 Peter 3:9(NAS)
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NAS)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 4:10
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
If you notice, 1 Tim 4:10 clearly makes a distinction between being savior of all men and believers. Paul said, "especially of believers." Christ has offered salvation to all, but only the believers accept the free gift offered by God.
Therefore, the love of God is unconditional. He has given His love to all humanity. Salvation is a free gift offered to all.
I hope this helps.
In love,
Blake
JaySaved wrote:
Ormly you said something interesting on the 'tribes' thread that correlates to this discussion.Many in the world wait to hear this message. They wait with prepared hearts because they have recognized Grace as presented them to their understanding and live according to it, however imperfect their endeavors. It is a heart issue and God foreknows who they are who have a heart for Him.
Jesus Said, "Go and make disciples". He never said to go and get people saved. It should be obvious that what I am saying is that they already are and the message given should be about the kingdom of God and its Leadership.
Please explain this further. Are you saying that it is possible for an adult who has never heard/read the gospel or about Jesus to go to heaven when they die?
Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?
Dear Ormly,
Quote:
#1. Unmerited favor is not a Biblical term.
What is a Biblical term? How do we define a word as being Biblical or not?
For starters, find it in the Bible. If you can't, find where it is implied in the context of scripture. BECAREFUL!! Most importantly is to not make specifics into universal application when that is NOT the intent of the writer. Get my drift?
Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?
Would you please be more clear in your answer.
Grace is God's part and faith is our part. The work is entirely of God, all we must do is trust in God (believe in Jesus). When we come before the cross, we are convicted of sin. However, God is offering forgiveness if we are willing to accept Jesus as our Lord. God is offering a gift, all we must do is accept it
If work is entirely God then why do you say faith is our part to which would agree with you?
As far being convicted when coming to the cross, that's a "maybe I will, maybe I won't". Depends on my need, how I feel about myself. That's why Jesus said "it is easier for a camel to go through...." you finish it.
JaySaved wrote:Are they justified by faith in God or not, however they see Him of believe Him to be?
Would you please be more clear in your answer.
That's not an answer. It's question. Can you not answer it? You will find the answer to your question when you truthfully answer mine.
I feel like I am on the show 'Who's line is it Anyway?' and we can only answer questions with questions.
Ok, I will play along...'Has everyone in the world heard the gospel?'
This discussion is locked.
