I was so encouraged to read the article by Zac Poonen on tithing, where he says the only reason we have tithing, is because pastors love money! See his article on sermon index here.
I had thought that websites like theTithe.org were lone rangers! It seems that in today's commercialized church it is, but not in revived times past. What do you guys make of the whole tithing debate? Time we got rid of it, and went revival?
Pastors only want money?
Brother, have you ever been a pastor?
You have no idea at the sacrifice that most of these blessed bretheren make. There are some that love money, but I would have to say they are few in number compared to those that sacrifice for the love of their Saviour.
Jason,
Zac Poonen didn't say "pastors only want money" he said that the only reason that tithing is preached is because of pastors who love money. He didn't say that all pastors are like that, just the ones who preach tithing.
It encouraged me to realize that there was once a day when men of God could trust God without needing the tithing "doctrine".
he said that the only reason that tithing is preached is because of pastors who love money. He didn't say that all pastors are like that, just the ones who preach tithing.
I must disagree with brother Poonen. Perhaps the pastors who constantly rail on tithing and giving, but not all who preach tithing. My pastor has mentioned tithing (never as the core sermon subject, but rather as a sidenote) a few times. Not because he's money hungry, but because of God's promise to meet the needs of those who give.
Constant talk about prosperity, and tithing, and firstfuits is nonsense, but the occasional mentioning of it (because it is a Biblical principal) is okay. Is it not?
I do believe in tithing because of this scripture:
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Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
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Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
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I believe however that the real issue is that everything we have is a stewardship from God. He might want us go give a lot more than ten percent. The ten percent is just an acknowledgment that everything belongs to God to distribute as He wills.
You people do not sound like cheerful givers.
It's sad that Christians can be so mean.
I might be wrong, but it seems as though you begrudge giving even 10%. Why is this?
Let's look at a few scriptures.
Mark 12v42-44 Jesus commends the widow for giving 'all that she had, her whole livelihood'.
Her whole livelihood? Yes, her all.
Acts 4v34-37 people were selling land or houses and giving the money to the apostles to distribute to all who had need.
When was the last time that happened?
Most would end up like Ananias and Sapphira!
2 Cor 9v5-7 Paul is exhorting the Corinthians to prepare their generous gift, and not grudgingly.
Also who sows bountifully reaps bountifully, and sparingly reaps sparingly. Take note.
Matt 6v19-20 Jesus tells us not to lay up treasures on earth, but in heaven.
2 Cor 8v2 says, 'That in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the riches of their liberality'.
They were in deep poverty, yet liberal, generous in giving.
Luke 12v33, 'Sell what you have and give alms, provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.
Sell and give alms? That's what they did in the book of Acts.
If anything, a tithe is small compared to what was taking place in the New Testament church.
We want revival? Some of us need to be saved from the love of money before that can happen.
God bless.
I have to agree with enid. They counted nothing they had as their own and joyfully suffered the spoiling of their goods. Their hearts weren't set on earthly things, everything was for the furthering of the Kingdom and the benefit of the brethren.
God owns it all. We should give and give and give.
But as for tithing... being compelled to give a certain amount... this is part of the OT Law, and there is not one time that this is taught in the NT church. If tithing was as important as most churches make it out to be, then it seems there would be teachings about it throughout the NT, and there is not one mention of tithing after Christ's resurrection.
Paul gave instructions for how a collection should be taken up to help the poorer Christians in Jerusalem... but this was not a tithe. I believe those who teach this as a part of tithing are in error.
Krispy
Goldminer... your references to Jesus mentioning the tithe is correct... in [i]that
BUT... after His resurrection, the Law was fulfilled in Christ Jesus. Christians were free to eat meats that were forbidden under OT Law. Christians no longer needed to observe the ceremonial washings. You didnt have to be circumsized in order to be stand before God.
YET... many Christians still cling to the Law when it comes to tithing.
If you're going to keep one part of the Law, then you need to keep ALL of it. We cant pick and choose.
Having said that, we should give everything we have to God. Someone has a need... give. Missionaries need money to minister? Sell some stuff!! Give give give!
What I am against is preachers who yell "Can a man rob God?? If you dont tithe... the devil will eat your crops!"
Thats OT Law. When we get out from under the Law we are then free to be joyful givers! Being compelled to give 10% has proven that it does not produce joyful givers... it produces people who grumble about having to give 10%!
It also produces undo condemnation and guilt for those who simply cant give 10%.
We're either free... or we are not. I choose freedom!
Krispy
I think this does so much injustice to Zac Poonen! I cannot tell you which message it is exactly because I've listened to over a hundred of his teachings, but he spoke at length about how he never accepted any money from the church.
Zac Poonen even paid back the church when they threw him a birthday party... he did it in secret, but this is part of how the Lord has lead him to live. Like Apostle Paul he has chosen to be a tent-maker instead of asking money for the Gospel, but doesn't force this teaching on anyone else.
One thing that is worth noting is that he said the strict tithe of 10% was Old Testament LAW. The reason the Pharisees gave 10% was that it was required of the Old Covenant Law.
So Zac Poonen asks quite frankly, 'are we required to pay 10% since we are no longer under the Old Covenant Law?' And of course this answer is no... but he didn't stop there, and that's what I think is the most important...
He continues that we are under the New Covenant... so how much do we owe under the New Covenant? Everything!!! He asked pretty frankly to the audience, 'when was the last time that you thought about your money as if it all belonged to God... [b]God doesn't want 10%, in fact New Covenant believers when they understand this often give MORE THAN 10%!
That's right, Zac Poonen wasn't teaching that we shouldn't tithe at all -in fact he was teaching that since we are under the New Covenant Law of Love, we should tithe even more generously, because we know who the provider of our money is.
Now we can trust that when Zac Poonen preached this he was not asking anyone for their money, because he doesn't get any money from the church that he teaches at, so any money that is tithed in addition because of this preaching goes to the church needs and ministries... I think this is such a beautiful teaching of New Testament giving!
Apostle Paul went around asking for offerings at his churches for the church in Jerusalem... do you think this was begging, do you think he skimmed off the top for himself? No, absolutely not. So there is a right way to ask for money, if the reasons are properly motivated.
However this money was for the suffering church in Jersualem... not for a new church building, or some expensive broadcasting equipment, or a trip to Europe for the Pastor and his wife. This money was earmarked for the good of the suffering body of Christ!
I would be hard pressed to find any church in America that even gave 25% of the tithing it takes towards Christian Aid to the poor, sick and needy -or to missions for that matter.
We need a new understanding of New Covenant Tithing!
Giving? I read the article this morning and do believe in what Zac is saying about the subject. Everything is the Lords. One question; I personaly have guilt in this area. We generally do not give that much for the money earned barely covers bills and sometimes don't. And I have people tell me you need to give in order to be blessed. Now with two children as well it even becomes difficult to give our time when they require attnetion as well. I do love the Lord and want to serve Him in all areas of my life. Now I want you to know if someone asks anything of me I give my all, but I don't just jump out there and do things or give money especially since we are always so short, but I pray that the Lord will bless us in order that we will be able to give and support worthwhile ministries with money. Any thoughts?
Remember what Jesus said about the woman who gave out of her poverty!
The Pharisees gave 10%, and some of them had a lot, so their gifts were quite amazing to behold... but they were nothing to Jesus, because these people had so much, they could have easily given 30, 40, 50% and still been comfortable.
Jesus beheld the woman who gave the three small coins and loved her! This woman gave everything she had, even what she didn't... she gave everything, not worrying about what she would eat or drink or wear tomorrow -trusting that God is good and he will provide.
CS Lewis in his book Mere Christianity talks about the virtue of Charity and says something like this, 'If it doesn't hurt, then it's not charity!' That's right, if in our giving of our means to the work of God, if it doesn't cause us some discomfort we haven't given enough!
That's a simple rule to live by, if you don't have to change your regular habits of consumption, your life style, where you eat, how you spend your free time because of how much you're giving to church, charity and missions... then you're not giving enough.
This wasn't my measure, this was how CS Lewis put it in his book... but I think we can see it in the lives of those saints who are really sold out for Jesus.
Sacrificing hurts! When we're called to sacrifice our possessions for the sake of the Gospel, it's just like killing a valuable animal that we used on our farm and offering it up the God. We won't have any more use of that animal, and we may be hungrier for it, it may have helped tread out the grain, or pull a hoe, no longer, it was sacrificed to the work of the Gospel.
Americans want sacrifice without pain, giving without tightening the belt!
I think that the invitation to the rich young ruler is an invitation given to the American church... but we haven't heard Jesus clearly. I've heard this sermon preached on one hundred times, and ever time the preacher will make sure to point out, 'well God doesn't want us to literally give up everything we have... this was a specific call to this individual.'
But that ignores Jesus's comment following the invitation, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle... the American church is rich! In general American believers are extremely blessed, materially, intellectually and with health. Are we any better for all of it? No, to someone with great blessing there is also great responsibility.
Choose today whether you can really give up everything for Jesus! Count the costs, we are told to count the costs.
Secondly, I cannot sympathize with you as I have no children or family to support... I think this is why Paul said, and I paraphrase, that it is better for a man not to marry because he has not the cares of this world.
Last night I read an article by Charles Finney which I think every believer should read on the cares of the world. Although the english is a little bit tough because of the age (1839) it is an amazing read and really encouraging.
I'm sorry for replying to myself, but I also thought of another great lesson about giving!
I was encouraged by the writings of Brother Andrew about how God would provide for him whenever he was in need.
We'll never be in need of anything from God if we're always making provisions for ourselves!
This is a valuable point to learn. When we build up our own storehouses full of grain, we can never experience God's overflowing blessings for our provisions, because we'll conent, all but ignorant of the good things that God wants to give us.
I'm not saying that you should go out and sell your house, or trade in your car, although some have been lead to do this -I strongly suggest you read KP Yohannan's books and hear his testimony!
God says that we should be wise with our money, but he also says that we should trust in him since he is the maker of all things and will provide for us in our need.
This is the rule to live by, take only what you need for yourself, if you save, save modestly, if you give, give generously! Remember that God cloths the grass of the fields and feeds the birds of the air and more than those want's to provide good things for you.
Now you may have a distorted view of what good things are based on the culture we live in. You may not be able to distinguish wants from needs. There are a lot of things that I want, like a new cell phone, but don't need. I'd like a nicer car, but my car will probably last me another ten years. If I have the means from God to buy these things, it doesn't necessarily mean that i should... I should first inquire as to how God wants me to use the money he's given me.
Remember that God is the Lord of your life, and the Lord of your checkbook, you'll be accountable to him for everything that is written in that as well!
We must begin to understand what Church was then, and what it is now.
Before they met in houses, so let's say this is our setting. I will use names of some posters here to set the idea.(Please forgive if I use your name w/o permission)
Ok, so let's say we meet in krispy's home. Now brother crsschk and his wife have a need and it is made known either by them, or by the Lord, so we ths church at krispy's house provide for it.
Now the next week, or day brother sermonindex comes to us in our fellwship and explains how he is being led to go preach to the Canadians. We take a collection and help him.
Now within this setting, krispy and his wife should receive a little help as well so we do not eat them out of house and home, but the Spirit would guide us as to how much, and how often.
Notice that there is no huffing and puffing, or threatening about the devourer coming, but instead the giving is done unto family. There are no plasma screens to pay for(sorry Krispy), no Pierre Cardin suits, but there is a sharing of what we all have for the Body.
If you have made a covenant with God to tithe, please disregard this post.
Matthew 17: 26 KJV
And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
We all think our benefactors or different but we are continuing a cruel and corrupt system of trust in money and are still caught and imprisoned by the elements of the world. Trust in the power of almighty God and serve the Kingdom of God. Give all that you have to the Kingdom of God not to the kingdom of greed. There is plenty of money but the shortage of love is astounding. I plead with you to stop giving your support to any earthly organizations who in the name of God demands money. All that you have to show for it is a pious glare toward the poor and a cold heart toward the unlovable. Give your love to the poor and you want have money leftover to perpetuate this practice.
1 Corinthians 9
16. For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17. For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
19. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
rowdy2
Now within this setting, krispy and his wife should receive a little help as well so we do not eat them out of house and home, but the Spirit would guide us as to how much, and how often.
Actually... everyone brings food to our gatherings... we share everything (food-wise). I wish we could get to the point where we shared everything else too... but we're not there yet! :-)
But your point is well taken, and thats how we attempt to run our house churches. We try to live out the example that is in Acts.
...no Pierre Cardin suits
LOL... usually on Sunday mornings I teach wearing a Panthers jersey and sweatpants. I dont believe the Lord has called to high fashion. And I know when I get dressed up I usually end up pretty impressed with myself and want people to look at me. So I like dressing comfortably.
Krispy
And I thought the plasma TV would upset ya :-D
And I thought the plasma TV would upset ya
Wish I had one for watching football...
First off, I cant justify the $$ for one, and secondly it would become an idol bigtime. I know my limitations! lol
I know Christians who have them... drop $3000 plus on it... and then complain about how much a new Bible costs. Or claim they dont have enough money to give to the Kingdom... while they're also making payments on a house they cant afford and big expensive vehicles.
Then they ask my wife how we can afford for her to not work so she can homeschool our kids. Uhmmm... duh... we dont live above our means!
Oh... wow... that kinda ties in with the topic of this thread, doesnt it!?!
Krispy
When all the world that sparkles and calls finally looks to me grim
Then shall I have nothing at all
Nothing yet all in Him
I for get what hymn this next line is from, but I believe it's Newton
"Fading are the worldlings' pleasures, all their boasted pomp and show;"
I guess this can be a sensitive subject but I always thought the Word said the tithe belong to the Lord, well the Pastor is not the Lord or the Church is not the Lord, I thought that Jesus said when you give to the least of me your giving to the Lord, so if you give to anyone in need you giving to the Lord.
I have never felt anyones giving should ever be confined to the Church, and personally I don't feel "any" Pastor should ever preach on tithing directly because if he is preaching the word of God the congregation should already know this, one of my biggest turn offs on any pastor is when they start on the tithe thing and try and make you feel under condemnation.
A favorite quote of the tithe teachers is second part of Malachi 3:10, “Prove me now … if I will not open the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” I could confidently make the declaration that the greatest majority of the Christians that faithfully give 10% or more, under the tithe system, never see a return “blessing” so large they don’t have enough room to receive it.
In fact, I find a lot of them having a hard time just making ends meet. And I am not including the Christians that get themselves into financial bondage with large house and car payments trying to keep up with the Jones’, I’m referring to the ones who are having difficulty affording the basic necessities of life (food, water, shelter and clothing). I think we all realize "blessings" encompass a lot more than just money, but money is a part of it, especially if the seed sown is currency, and financial returns are what the tithe teachers emphasize when referencing “blessings.” If this Malachi Old Covenant verse is for a New Covenant believer, why isn’t it working?
These brothers and sisters are “proving” God as they are told to do for many years, yet very few see huge returns, financial or otherwise. Could it be because they are not giving to the true temple “storehouse,” or maybe because the money is not going to the actual tribe of Levi as it was supposed to? It seems the majority of the ones seeing the abundant returns are the ones collecting the tithes.
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