Acts 27 - Storm at Sea question

I have a question concerning Paul's situation in Acts 27. I am sure most of you are familiar with this story of Paul's trip to Rome. It turns out that a violent storm came and caused the ship to wreck at an island.

I have included certain verses that directly pertain to the following question, but please consult the entire chapter in case you wish. (I do not want to be accused of taking anything out of context.) ;-)

In Acts 27:22 Paul said

Yet now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship.

'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.'

"Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved."

Acts 27:32 tells us that the soldiers did as Paul suggested.

Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship's boat and let it go.

Then in Acts 27:34 Paul reiterates

for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you."

Question: In light verses 22, 24, and 34, was the possible that the men could have gotten into that boat and died?

Most definitely.

Most definitely.

Please explain.

Question: In light verses 22, 24, and 34, was the possible that the men could have gotten into that boat and died?

The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

The story is really one of having disobeyed the voice of God. Paul was the oracle on board the ship. When he spoke- it was as if God was speaking and when he warned them not to sail- it was as if they had disobeyed God. What was their plight? Fear and darkness. Trouble and danger. They could not as much as see their hand in front of their face. They were carried along they knew not where. This is what happens when men disobey God. There is no way to navigate- they are simply along for the ride and at the mercy of God. Yet, God in His great mercy after so long a time may well speak again. This is the God of the 'second chance'. This is what happened on this ship. And as Paul told them... they should have listened the first time. ;-)

I wrote some posts in a haughty spirit, and the moderator left some links to sermons about authority, and being under authority, so when I heard them they spoke of GOD is the authority, that implying that resisting men in submission (whether I am aware or not) is amout to kicking back at GOD.

I think we are of no theat to GOD's purposes. like chickens running backwards, cluking all the way.

The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

Powerful spiritual implications here that i hadn't noticed before.

The promise was no doubt conditional. It is what Ron has sometimes called an "If-then" promise. In this case we find that staying on the ship was the only real condition of being saved. If anyone got off the ship- they forfeited their claim to salvation. Whne the men tried to lower the life boat- they were made known the 'condition'.

This may be implied, but it is not explicit.

God said:

Acts 27:22, "Yet now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship."

When the storm began, God made a promise to Paul. There will be no loss of life among you. No one who was on the ship at that time would die. Only the ship would be destroyed. God doesn't place any condition in this statement.

Acts 27:24, "'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar. And behold, God has granted you all those who sail with you.'"

God has granted you all those who sail with you. This is not all those who stay on the ship, but this is all those who are on the ship at that time.

Acts 27:34, "for not a hair is to perish from the head of any of you."

This statement was made after the men did not get into the boat but it reinforces the earlier promise God made to Paul, 'there will be no loss of life among you.'

I know that the men did desire to get in the boat, but they did not get into the boat. Why? Because God saw to it that they did not die because His word was on the line.

God promised that none would die, if some would have died then wouldn't that make God a liar? This is why I saw that the men could not have gotten into that boat.

This is an amazing example of how God's sovereign will and man's free will coexist. The men made a free-will choice not to get into the boat, but it was because God had willed for them not to get into the boat.

[u]When the storm began[/u], God made a promise to Paul. There will be no loss of life among you. No one who was on the ship at that time would die. Only the ship would be destroyed. God doesn't place any condition in this statement.

Two observations here. First, actually the ship had been having difficulty and was in some measure of danger since before they even arrived at the Fair Havens. Paul warns them not to leave as he had 'perceived' the danger of going on. The set sail and fell almost immediately into a storm and the ship was out of control. they were at least three days in a severe storm before the angel appeared.

My second observation is that Paul did not tell the people the full message. He gave to them the promise first. Perhaps he did not feel the need to share the condition until it became evident that the folk were about to break that condition? this would make it a 'then-if' conditional promise. Why he did not give the full details before is unclear, but once the condition is made known it has to be taken into account:

Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, 'If these do not remain in the ship -- ye are not able to be saved;' (Acts 28:31 YLT)

This is why it is important to 'keep reading' the word of God. Folk want often to stop at the promise and hold onto it for dear life and ignore the plainly revealed conditions of the promises. No matter at what point in the dialogue they are told- once they are told they have to be taken into account. If those men had dropped the life boat and gotten into it- the ships captian would have been lost. That's my plain reading of the text. Pointing to the original promise, "But Paul, you said earlier we would all be saved..." Paul did not tell them the promise was unconditional. To assume this is to greatly err. He did not lie to the men. He revealed the information on a need to know basis. And when they needed to know- he told them and not before then.

This may be implied, but it is not explicit.

I know that the men did desire to get in the boat, but they did not get into the boat. Why? Because God saw to it that they did not die because His word was on the line.

I don't agree with this. God saw to it that this account was included into the record of this voyage as a great lesson to us. I think it is worth noting how so much space is spent on it when other stories are just summarized.

Truly if God was going to force the men to do what He wanted then there is no reason to give a warning to the leaders. It is a mute point. It makes the whole dialogue into pretense. They leaders had a decision to make. They could take seriously what Paul said- or not. Many a man has disregarded God's counsel and perished. These men would not have been the first or the last.

RobertW wrote:

Truly if God was going to force the men to do what He wanted then there is no reason to give a warning to the leaders. It is a mute point. It makes the whole dialogue into pretense. They leaders had a decision to make. They could take seriously what Paul said- or not. Many a man has disregarded God's counsel and perished. These men would not have been the first or the last.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with you. What about the story of Jonah? God's purpose was still accomplished even though Jonah first disobeyed God. I don't know the mind of God, but I do know that He cannot lie because Scripture tells us that (Titus 1:2). God told Paul that not one of those sailors would perish, so I personally believe that they could not die, or God would be a liar.

Sellsie's: God told Paul that not one of those sailors would perish, so I personally believe that they could not die, or God would be a liar.

Yes, but God also told Paul that if any leave the ship then they could not be saved. We have to take the entire account as a whole. A [i]text[/i] without a [i]context[/i] is a [i]pretext[/i]. God would not be a liar if they perished unless they died without warning. They were warned of the condition. If they chose to disobey then God is not a liar- the disobedient would have -perished for their decision.

The promise made to Paul was conditional, but not in the sense that you say. The promise was not only for the storm, but for the duration of the trip to Rome. We know this because eventually all the men died.

Please look at the promise:

22And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship.

God promised that no one would die and that only the ship would be destroyed. This happened.

23For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,
24Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

God had given safety to all that traveled with Paul. This happened and none died.

25Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

The promise was that none of those who sailed with Paul would perish in the storm. The angel told Paul and Paul believed God.

Also, for another example please notice verses 42-44:

42And the soldiers' counsel was to kill the prisoners, lest any of them should swim out, and escape.
43But the centurion, willing to save Paul, kept them from their purpose; and commanded that they which could swim should cast themselves first into the sea, and get to land:
44And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land.

Remember, God had earlier promised Paul that none would die. Now, we have the soldiers making a plan to kill the prisoners. If the soldiers would have killed the prisoners then God's promise would have been void.

But what happened? The centurion saved Paul's life. The centurion did exactly what God wanted him to do. This is another example of God's Sovereign will coexisting with man's free will. Was there any condition in this second instance?

All promises are conditional at some level.

What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

The frustrating thing about what you are saying is that God makes promises but whether or not they are realized is up to us.

The Bible says in Ephesians 1:11 that God, "works all things according to the counsel of his will"

Also in Isaiah 14:24, "The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand."

Isaiah 46:9-10, "Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please."

God's sovereignly brings things about according to His good pleasure. This does not mean that man does not make choices, what it means is that man's choices fulfill God's plans. The two can coexist and Acts 27 demonstrates this fact.

JaySaved wrote:

All promises are conditional at some level.

What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Amen. If this promise is conditional, then we are in deep trouble. If this promise is conditional, it is no longer God's grace which saves but has now become our works that save. Sorry for going off on a tangent...I felt compelled to respond to this. :-D

What is conditional about Hebrews 13:5 other than it is made to Christians?
"I will never leave you nor forsake you."

Hebrews 13:5 was given it's condition earlier:

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38, 39)

This verse suggests that there are some that will 'draw back' unto perdition. This is a picture of a ship that furls its sails when going into battle. The wind is in the sails, but the captain does not like the direction or does not want the battle. Quite a sober warning I think. The drawing back leads to perdition if it is continued in.

The frustrating thing about what you are saying is that God makes promises but whether or not they are realized is up to us.

This is the way He has sovereignly chosen to work things out. In His sovereignty He has given man the ability to 'choose'. Man is called to 'choose ye'. That is man's responsibility. God called Israel to be a great nation; but their 'choice' ultimately led them away from what God wanted for them. Jesus wept over Jerusalam and said how long He desired to gather them, but they [i]would not[/i]. That was God's reaction to their choice. This was not God crying over His own decisions- but over a people whom He had given to make their own.

Amen. If this promise is conditional, then we are in deep trouble.

Not unless we decide to walk away from God (furl the sails).

I am sorry Robert but I respectfully disagree with your statement.

Hebrews 10:38-39 speak of two types of people who profess faith:
- Those who are genuine
- Those who are false

Notice Paul makes the statement, 'But we are not like them'. This signifies that we belong to God and cannot draw back.

This also agrees with 2 Timothy 2:16-19
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity."

Once again there are two types: Those who swerve from the truth and those who belong to God. God's firm foundation stands because he keeps those who are His.

This also agrees with 1 John 2:19-20,
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge."

Notice that there were some who were with us, but left us. What does John say about them? He says they left because they were not of us to begin with. Their leaving proved that they did not belong to begin with. Then John says, 'But you have been anointed'.

What you are saying is that God makes the following statement:
"I will never leave you nor forsake you unless you fall away, then I will leave you and forsake you."

If all of God's promises are based upon me, then may God have mercy on my soul because I fail everyday. What assurance and hope would I have? But praise be to God for He holds me and seats me in the Heavenly places with Christ.