Concerning righteousness which is by faith

Romans 3:21-24 (NASB)
21 But now apart from the Law [to those who never heard there was one, Gentiles] the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God *through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; [because] all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Being justified [is] a gift by/of His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; {emphasis mine]

*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:16,17 (NASB)

16 "............ it, [the cross of Jesus Christ] is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes [in God unto righteousness], to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it [Grace] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man [found anywhere in the world] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." [all emphasis mine]

Romans 9:30-32 (NIV)
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, [without any knowledge of Christ] who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith [theirs]; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Romans 5:1-2 (NASB)
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we [all righteous men] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we [in this present time] have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Obviously I am not writing this for anyone locked in tulip however, I sincerely hope it will be helpful to anyone who can't put the pieces together regardless of/or because of tulip.

John173 wrote:
Ormly,

Is there a question here? And what does Hollands favorite flower have to do with it? :-)

Actually, I purposely avoid the Cal/Arm bickering so I really don't understand what the tulip reference means.

And I would like to. Hence, the hint.

Certainly some interesting inserts on your part. I would probably have used something different if I had attempted to do the same.

Why don't you do it? It's a subject that needs better resolution than what we are given to accept, by more scholarly definers.

This is not to say I have any strong disagreements. I have long believed that the OT saints had a prophetic understanding of redemption and were granted a pre-cross salvation,

But I am not here speaking of OT saints. Perhaps it would have been better for me to write "OT time frame".

..... in the same way that God calls those things that are not as though they are (such as our positional righteousness, even though in reference to time we are not yet perfected and are still capable of stumbling).This is because, in God's economy it IS a done deal, as He stands outside of time and sees the beginning from the end and back again.

Then why call it pre-cross if, in His economy, everything is present tense? Can you see my point? And indeed that was so except for righteous man who died not having had the consequence of the sin of Adam dealt with. Ergo, he unavoidably, died in his sin.... but not unto distruction because we know he went to Paradise.

One more thought: If salvation is merely granted that would make it seem to be, somewhat, acquiesing and although, for time to time, God has done that in dealing with man, it never accomplished in man what God would ultimately have of him. When speaking of God's salvation for man, God's character demands and grants along very narrow, but all so absolute, lines; He can't violate His Character/Nature. Therefore if the criteria is met He cannot refuse to grant. If, on that basis man comes to righteousness on his own, simply through believing and acting on that belief unto an acceptable righteousness in Him, [and I mean to God by any name] God must, on that account receive him however, this could never mean being received into His presence for the pre-cross righteous. One might say, that is a absolute that can't be changed or else God wouldn't be God. Of course, the converse of this, is equally true.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Doug.

rowdy2 wrote:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Great Post; Thanks Eddie

Can you eleborate alittle more on that, Eddie? I'd like to be sure I am seeing what I believe you are inferring. Thanks.

I guess all of what you say is ok however, communion can only be between intimates. Many have it in their thinking that it is some kind of dispensing of grace or even salvation. That is error. I hope you can see that without an argument back.

And to His disciples Paul said:

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 1 Corinthians 11:26-30 (KJV)

Ormly said

*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

John 16 (Young's Literal)
7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

8 and having come, [b]He will convict the world concerning sin[/b], and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;

9 [b]concerning sin indeed, [u]because they do not believe in me[/u][/b];

10 and concerning righteousness, because unto my Father I go away, and no more do ye behold me;

11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

Or, with Paul's in Romans 10
9 that [b]if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved[/b],

10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

11 for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'

12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him,

13 for every one--whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

Also, remember that it was not Abraham's faith in God [i]per se[/i] which was credited to him as righteousness, but, that he was obedient to what God told him to [i]do[/i]. Abraham had faith in God's [i]word[/i] to him.

We are invited by God to have faith in what [i]He[/i] has done [i]for us[/i].

dorcas wrote:

Ormly said

*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.

I don't believe this statement is compatible with Christ's own words:

John 16 (Young's Literal)
7 `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;

8 and having come, [b]He will convict the world concerning sin[/b], and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment;

9 [b]concerning sin indeed, [u]because they do not believe in me[/u][/b];

10 and concerning righteousness, because unto my Father I go away, and no more do ye behold me;

11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world hath been judged.

Or, with Paul's in Romans 10
9 that [b]if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved[/b],

10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

11 for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'

12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him,

13 for every one--whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

Also, remember that it was not Abraham's faith in God [i]per se[/i] which was credited to him as righteousness, but, that he was obedient to what God told him to [i]do[/i]. Abraham had faith in God's [i]word[/i] to him.

We are invited by God to have faith in what [i]He[/i] has done [i]for us[/i].

Right. You are totally out of context therefore you are not, nor can you make proper distinctions. This is just another way of saying your not properly dividing the word of God.

Hi Ormly,

I'm not sure how my challenge to a section of your opening post, can be 'totally out of context'.

Also, can justify the core thought you propose

[color=000099]'The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ [b]is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation[/b], by his faith in God.'[/color]

with supporting scripture? Or the statement cannot stand as one of [u]eternal truth[/u].

The main difficulty I have with what you are saying, is that a man can be righteous [i]enough[/i], without having taken upon himself, the righteousness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1 (KJV)
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Until people have heard and believed in the true God they are calling on idols. How shall they believe if they have not heard? Is not the gospel necessary for salvation?

Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.

If I realize there is God and live righteously believing in that God, though I know not his name, am I damned? Doesn't the Blood of Jesus Chtist not apply to me; make peace for me in my behalf because I am living a righteous life as best I can with what little knowledge I possess about there even being a God? BTW, I am held accountable for whatever knowledge I may possess of Him.... unto a righteousness.

Jesus never told the Disciples to go into all the world and get people saved. He told them to make disciples of the nations. Think about that part of it before replying to say, I am wrong.

dorcas wrote:

Hi Ormly,

I'm not sure how my challenge to a section of your opening post, can be 'totally out of context'.

Also, can justify the core thought you propose

[color=000099]'The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ [b]is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation[/b], by his faith in God.'[/color]

with supporting scripture? Or the statement cannot stand as one of [u]eternal truth[/u].

The main difficulty I have with what you are saying, is that a man can be righteous [i]enough[/i], without having taken upon himself, the righteousness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1 (KJV)
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Man doesn't take upon himself the righteousness of Christ for the sin of Adam he had nothing to do with. The crucified Jesus presented Himself, on man's behalf, to the Father in regards to that which brought reconcilation, which only He could accomplish. "It is Finished", I believe were His words..

Having said that, regenerated man is now to take the righteousness of Son of God. Gal. 2.20 should explain that better than I can.

InTheLight wrote:

Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.

This sounds spiritual but it is not true. It requires both, for how can the heart truly believe in what the mind is not convinced of?

In Christ,

Ron

However, ultimately it is a heart issue, correct?

John 12:40 (KJV)
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

andres wrote:
"I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?"
well lets look at scripture..
Let see why a person is judged and condemed to hell. Rom 2.13 ("For not the hears of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified") The reason a person goes to hell is because he breaks GOD'S HOLY LAW. not becuase he is born in a certain country or comes from a certain back ground. Now the only way a man could get into heaven is if he never broke God's law(10 commendments) then he would be considerd right with God. Now God's law has been given to every creature in the world Please read romans 2.13-15. but there is a big problem...all the world is guilty before God and none are right with God. Read Rom 3.10-20

Please place your last in proper context because David was a man after God's heart. Don't assume that God gave him one so that it could be one. That doesn't compute. Read psalm 14,53. David was speaking of certain conditions he was referring to when crying out to God. Define those conditions and you will see why God rescued and why God enslaved and why God even punished the enslavers. In none of this were men robots except to their "self" natures they loved more than they feared God. God they feared until their bellies were filled and the goodtimes rolled. Then they would forget God and go the own way once again, to their own destruction.

JayHil wrote:
So what are we asking here? If I am born in a "Christian" nation to "Christian" parents, and I recieve Christ as my savior, doesn't it seem that I have a slight advantage at getting to heaven over someone who is born in a muslim nation to muslim parents? If I was to switch places with that person who is to say I wouldn't be on the outside looking in?
So the question is if there is a muslim man who loves his wife, takes care of the poor, and has a love for God, but has never heard of Jesus before, get thrown into hell?

My understanding of the scriptures tells me, no.

And if a man grows up in this country and recieves Jesus as his personal Savior(perhaps several times), but doesn't really love his wife, the poor, and has a difficult time following God(with all his heart, soul and strength) get into heaven?

I am compelled to say, I don't know..... but neither would I want to be in his shoes in that day when all stand before Christ, to give an account.
Much of the reason for this man's condition is because of an incomplete message of the gospel preached, even wrong would not be an over "the top", criticism. The complete message of the gospel is for bringing son's unto the Father....not just "saved" folk who don't know Him to love Him, as He desires --no! commands-- we do. That's from revelation of Him and no other way can it be accomplished.
If I said you can build a solid foundation on a crooked footing, what would that mean/say to you?

I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?

Thanks for the sincerity of your questions in this. They are two good ones that need to addressed but from scripture only and not from pre-programed pat answers offered up by man's reasoning, most of which we have lived with for too many years.

Here's something that I saw and wrote out when pondering some of what you have asked:

01-2006 The Lord Jesus Christ is the first and the last. We were in Him at the first and will be in Him at the last. Between the first and the last we are in the world to become [a son]. The first and the last, He is responsible. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed by the Father. The vision of the last is implanted in us from the first. A revelation of the first, the Christ of Glory, brings the vision of the last that will sustain the in-between... which is now. The vision is the understanding of His Grace; the overflowing of His Nature.