http://www.current.tv/watch/21674856
Church in the 21 cent? this is Solomons Porch Doug Pagitt church..I like the ideas on community and the social Gospel..But a lot of it left me cold...
andy
Just another group trying to re-invent the gospel. This most likely is what the "church" will look like as it pursues a social gospel. Grace, and love are embraced, and God's judgment is discarded. :-o
Blessings Greg
andy,
anywhere human beings gather, whether it be a secular institution or an ecclesiastical institution can leave one cold. Because we are broken and flawed, that is truth. You know this.
I have great respect and love for Doug Padgitt and the body of believers, and seekers at Solomon's Porch.
I watched that video, intently, and there was one brother, who was saying "in the end, it's just about people"....yeh, that left me dismayed of course, because in the end and the begininng its about Jesus. But we have no idea, where this fellow is AT in the Lord, he wasnt a pastor, just another lost and lonely soul testifying to what HE believes is the case. I understand what he was TRYING to say, but pray God, there is ONE person there that would later tell him, its NOT just about people, its about Jesus living IN people, that enables them to glorify God, whether it be feeding the poor, or forthtelling about injustice (which is a part of what some call the "social Gospel") and its about letting the Holy Spirit seize you up and run your tongue and tell people who do NOT know Jesus, that it is Him and Him alone, who will bring you the peace joy and love of His Ministry of reconciliation. (and that which what some call the salvation Gospel)
in my heart there is not two Gospels, social or salvation, there is only THE GOSPEL. to wit: when you walk with Jesus, when you follow Jesus, it is the indwelling Holy Ghost that has you testifying to the wonderous miracle working Power of Him in you that moves your tongue, it is the indwelling Holy Spirit that moves you to action when you see a man sleeping in a doorway in zero degree weather and make him a bowl of soup, a hot sandwich and a cup of hot cocoa.
The young woman listing the things that she believes Jesus would be doing today was half way off, she listed a whole litany of contemporary social issues. I understand what she was TRYING to say, but who is there to tell her that Jesus is doing everything today, He lives IN you girl, and when you speak of feminism, I can promise you that Jesus weeps over EVERY baby that is aborted, how would she react when I said THAT to her, while on the same token I agree with what she was TRYING to say about "globalization", which is just after all man making money his god, and that ties into the whole Revelations 18 thing about the "whore of babylon" and drinking of "her excesses". But you wouldnt see Jesus in Seattle breaking windows at the WTO riot, our Lord would be up before dawn, in a desolate place, praying and communing with His Father.
anyway...Solomons Porch is a indicator that the so-called "traditional church" in America is not relevant to a great portion of the seekers and believers in this country, this empire.
in Jesus' love, neil
Just another group trying to re-invent the gospel. This most likely is what the "church" will look like as it pursues a social gospel. Grace, and love are embraced, and God's judgment is discarded.
thats a rather flippant dismissal of a group of people trying to grasp the Richness of Christ.
I'll say what I said to our brother below, there are no two Gospels, "social" and "salvation", there is only One Gospel, and both those elements go hand in hand.
But please, try and look beneath the surface before you dismiss such as these so flippantly, I say this in Jesus' love, not looking for a argument.
neil
Hi Bartle interesting post..trust me i'm way less godly then anyone on the clip i'm sure..Just replying to how i felt watching it!!
I guess part of me found it all a little bit fake sorry! Not so much the spiritual side of it,just the all trying to be relevant side..
Similar to when i'm trying to be down with my nephew and nieces,and they see right through me..
All the cussing,so we can show how cool we are,makes me suspicious.
Surely at sometime beyond the cussing,beyond the "were the same as you" attitude,beyond the Jesus loves the environment : you still have to say Jesus says ur a sinner and there is a hell.
Of course its a short clip..But i do wonder how this church deals with certain sins like abortion and homosexuality..I'm a person who was involved in a bi-lifestyle,so please don't think i'm picking on that..There just two issue that more "modern" Christian have a problem confronting in my experiences..
Ive read emergents accuse traditional Christians of throwing the baby out with the bath water..I wonder if the reverse is true & they refuse to accept anything from the traditional church,just because its traditional?
andy
Bartle you said ""Solomons Porch is a indicator that the so-called "traditional church" in America is not relevant to a great portion of the seekers and believers in this country, this empire.""
I think that is the issue!! Are SP more relevant because their compromising though??
aj
I found the video quite troubling. I’m not sure exactly what it was, but it did not have a very calming effect. I felt kind of on edge. I did not get a feeling of holiness. In fact, while I could never be sure without actually asking them, I feel that many of them would say I was pushing my old school, conservative, traditionalist ways upon them if I were to even mention it.
It didn’t seem like anything new to me, just the same old teenage (young people) rebellion that occurs in every generation nowadays, only perhaps more disguised.
A wiser man than myself said, “There is nothing new under the sun”
I did see Non-Christian ways to dress, and Non-Christian ways to speak.
just my 2 cents
God Bless
TJ
For a few years I've heard many emergent thinkers expressing a desire to leave the modern mega-seeker sensitive politicized church and return to a spiritual kingdom Christianity that existed before the "Constantination" of the Church. After about 10 years of post-modern Christianty I've been reminded how men may use different vocabulary to describe their hearts...but their hearts remain the same. My observations...
1) Emergent Christianty is first and foremost seeker sensitive and is still producing mega-churches.
2) It's world-friendly methods reveal crucial differences from the moral and doctrinal writings of the earliest apostolic fathers such as Polycarp, Tertullian, or Cyprian.
3...while the Emergent movement has successfuly resisted conservative politics, it has not avoided political alliance in general as the earliest ante-Nicene church fathers had. In the exact same fashion that the modern conservative political church has mingled with empire, (as Bartle put it) the Emergent church has also become an openly political movement, often disturbingly at the expense of it's proclamation of a spiritual kingdom.
So it remains true...our sincere longings for authenticity, our critiques of those before us, and our idealogical movements are only chaff. Unless a man is born again...
(edit: These same measurements apply to the Evangelical churches. Even with all it's noteworthy social works, if the Evangelical movements of the 18th and 19th century (which were the 'emerging' church of their days) had not made the conversion of men's hearts the primary mission, these too would have been forgotten by history in short time. In short our forefathers believed in the Holy Spirit before they believed in entertainment, big brand names, compassion, politics, and homeless shelters.
It is fair to admit that Evangelical Christianity is shipwrecked on the rocks of worldiness right now...but by ignoring the earlier great men of the Evangelical church the Emergent church has missed a real opportunity to reform Gospel preaching in this country. Instead they have chosen to repackage their churches in articulate post-modern lingo, and while that makes for interesting books, it's not much of a solution for men's lost condition.)
MC
Hi,yeah there is a certain unsettling feeling to the clip,but maybe thats a good thing?kind of confronting where were standing?
20 years ago this was me (still is to a point)!!I left church though,seems some stayed..So maybe i'm just bitter "where were they when i needed them" lol
I really don't have a problem with the way they dress..Piercings or grungy/skateboard look is not unlike how i dress (besides the piercings lol)..I just wonder if its authentic,or just how they think they should look to reach their community..
I get the feeling they may repeat the mantra ad nauseam : can't look traditional can't look traditional
aj
I really don't have a problem with the way they dress..Piercings or grungy/skateboard look
I agree, but one of the girls was wearing something I consider to be to revealing.
and the cuss words....
God Bless
TJ
couple points:
1. I'm not going gonna be serving as Doug Padgit's apologist or defender. I never been there, nor met him. I do like what they are trying to do there.
2. I think the foul language is not the fruit that should be borne from the lips of a yielded follower of Jesus, but I think what is allowed to happen in some of the meetings and gatherings is that others besides those in pastoral and leadership positions are allowed to speak, I don't know, but I didnt hear any foul language from pastor Doug Padgitt.
3. I think a lot of people are missing the point on this issue of "relevency", and what I'm about to say, I beg that nobody takes as offense, but the current mold of your protestant "low church" (as opposed to "high church", pres, epis, catholic) is this: Sundays at 11, at 10:45, people gather together, put smiles on their faces, shake hands, exchange surface pleasantries, light conversation, than precisely at 11, the worship team starts to play songs, everybody is told to rise, you sing songs, in between songs the pastor might led a corporate prayer, keep standing, more songs, than announcements about the ladies breakfast on Saturday morning, leadership conference on Friday night, childrens church teachers meeting for the once a month training session at 2 after services, announce the wednesday night Bible study (which will just be a sunday lite version of the days service, difference being you can raise your hand and make a point during the pastors lecture) announce the twice a month saturday prayer meeting, which will start at 6 and end precisely at 6:45, and then the exhortation over giving to God, and then the prayer over the offering, then the ushers walk down the aisles, while the worship team sings, then the worship team exits the stage and the pastor will speak to a passive group of listeners for 30 to 50 minutes, then the altar call, encouraging those who dont know Jesus to raise their hand, with every eye closed, then you're all dismissed, but if you want to remain at the altar for prayer a team of elders stand by ready, then the people all leave, and what some of them do is to cluster in little groups and make plans to eat at the Denny's, and these plans are usually whispered, so that maybe that individual who was sitting alone in the forward facing pews might not hear, and be offended by not being invited to break bread togther, and then its over. week after week, year after year, the same thing, over and over.
and the pastor, God bless him will always have a nice neat haircut, and will be wearing a suit, looking exactly either like a businessman, or like a pastor is SUPPOSED to look.
Its pro forma, there's no room for God because the agenda has already been set, and the people that gather are NOT really up for community, they don't want to be wired for community sure they'll gather and make nice for a few hours, and listen to a sermon, and then surface smile and say bye.....and thats what passes for church in America in traditional evangelical "low" churches.........and heaven forbid the Spirit takes charge, lays people on their faces until midnight in weeping contrition. Heaven forbid we should rip up the forward facing pews and sit people in a square so they could SEE each other, heaven forbid, the community of faith should enjoy a love feast together, heaven forbid, we get a basin of warm water and start washing each other's feet, heaven forbid, some long haired gen x, gen y fonkball should wander in.....do you get what I'm trying to say?
These twenty somethings who dont know the Lord certainly know enough to see the underlying barrenness of this ecclesiatical late 20th century version of American protestantism, or pentecostalism.
God's been weaned out of the program, the agenda is set, and I personally am very very weary of how "church" is done in America, mainstream. Its not a question of "relevancy", its a question of trying to pick fruit from a barren tree.
Now some people enjoy (and attend) just such mainstream churches, nothing bad against them, no judgement on my part, anywhere Jesus and Him crucified is preached and taught, Bless God!! I'm not kidding, I love it, I love my home church back in Cali, but I just described how it goes there, and the whole things about the label "emergent", or "emerging church", its much the same baggage that "evangelical" has with it now. People love to label.
tell ya what bro, I'd love to find 5 maybe 10 fellow believers in my geographical area, rent a nearby storefront, nicely paint One Name on the window: "Jesus", throw down some rugs, get some plastic chairs, folding chairs, wooden benches, some fold up plastic tables for eating and for writing and studying, and start holding meetings,,,some might be prayer meetings, some might be worship sharing meetings, some healing meetings, but I'll tell you what, before every meeting, one of us would be asking and inviting the Holy Spirit to come in and lead the meeting, and here's what it would say for Sunday
Sunday meeting: 11 till ?
oh oh, wait, what about a leader? what about leadership? When a group of believers start to hold meetings with the Holy Ghost as Leader, over time the nominal human leadership will be revealed to all assembled, without rancor, it will be with unity, coz once the Holy Spirit leads there are no mistakes, there is no disorder, and if a cute young twenty something who likes to wear T-shirts with no bra starts showing up, sooner of later Jesus will tell her that's not appropriate for a place the community deems a holy place of meeting, or after we been meeting for 5 hours, guess what, we might be hungry, so lets order Pizza, sit at the plastic tables, then we become community, then we become the family of God, then people are not alone, then we realize what a precious thing it is to break bread as one.
Now it might be, we have another young woman, start to be part of this faith community, and she says a "woman has a right to choose", would I rebuke her? First I'd ask if she believes in freedom of speech? "of course neil"...."ok, cool, coz I think abortion is murder".
she'll say thats "your opinion"
to which I will say, "true, but it's also God's opinion, read thru your Bible, you'll see.
at that point, either one or two things will happen, she'll think "what a bunch of judgematic Christians" or " Maybe I better read the Bible...
okay I blithered enough.
bro, if you thought that was all a tad fake, didnt you catch a gander of Ted Haggard when he was cornered and denying his sin?
I think Solomons porch should be in our prayers, its a good church.
neil
tell ya what bro, I'd love to find 5 maybe 10 fellow believers in my geographical area, rent a nearby storefront, nicely paint One Name on the window: "Jesus", throw down some rugs, get some plastic chairs, folding chairs, wooden benches, some fold up plastic tables for eating and for writing and studying, and start holding meetings,,,some might be prayer meetings, some might be worship sharing meetings, some healing meetings, but I'll tell you what, before every meeting, one of us would be asking and inviting the Holy Spirit to come in and lead the meeting, and here's what it would say for Sunday
Amen Bartle. If this is what the Emergent church was I would be happy to identify myself with them!
You are right about labels. Yet it's how we organize ideas...I wish it wasn't so. For instance the emergent Christian calls themselves "emergent." Why is there a need? (I'm glad you asked ;-)) I'll tell you why...because the Emergent Church is founded in critique of the "Evangelical" church. By this critical seperation it has called itself different...but I don't see the meaningful difference. The church is still shipwrecked in America.
the whole things about the label "emergent", or "emerging church", its much the same baggage that "evangelical" has with it now.
I say this as an early but dissapointed advocate of the Emergent Church:
The dissapointment I have with the Emergent message isn't their music, their icons, their "missional" statements or their politics. It's their calculated ommission of the Gospel message: Unless you repent of your sins and believe in Jesus for salvation, and become born again into the life and body of Christ, you will not be made fit for heaven. To this day, I have never heard a major Emergent thinker express a burden for the eternal reality of that message. In fact, they dance around it or shun it because it's too unilateral for the 'post-modern' people (sic) they are trying to reach. Just this week I heard a radio advert from a new Emergent church in Columbus opening up...thier leadership explains that they cannot preach the gospel directly because such naked propositionalism will turn seekers off. Instead, they resort to abstract post-modern jargon to explain how different that they are from other churches that bore and condemn you...
To paraphrase a recent politican...it used to be that we agreed in principle but differed on policies. But today we differ in principle. The Emergent leaders like McClaren, Wallace, or Kimball wouldn't agree in principle at all with Whitefield, Wesley, or Spurgeon.
If I am wrong I will gladly be corrected and thankful for the education. If I am right, then the emergent church is hardly a church at all, though they are some sincere, compassionate, and intelligent people who justifiably feel Jesus has been slandered by the current church in America. However justified their complaint is, and however attractive their critique is to the younger generation, I find them to be just another mirage in the desert.
The Evangelical and the Emergent are both living in a dry land awaiting true spiritual revival.
Blessings,
MC
and if a cute young twenty something who likes to wear T-shirts with no bra starts showing up, sooner of later Jesus will tell her that's not appropriate for a place the community deems a holy place
Many people in situations like that “girl” are not currently “talking” to Jesus and might not be convicted for months. This does not mean we should tolerate such immodest and indecent attire. This is a huge stumbling block for some and should be dealt with sooner not later. This goes for the men as well as women. It would need to be done with tact, but done none the less. The shepherd should watch out for his flock, and this is part of it.
Very interesting thread I have learned much from all responses.
TJ
Seems to me that some folk can't tell the difference between a "believer" and a Christian. And to that I say, "God help you", because surely I can't do the work of the Holy Ghost. Only God Himself can do God's work, and the more the "church" tries to help God the more the church fails.
There is only One Way. Just One glorious, beautiful absolute Truth.
To me, the only "good" church is one that reveals the "Biblical" Christ Jesus. And, to me, this can only be done by the Holy Spirit.
...and take a look at the fruit manifested in this video. Is it Christ Jesus or not?
Only God can give the increase on the foundation of Christ Jesus.
richie
Hi Neil, as i stated before i am sympathetic with what their trying to do,to a point..Ive posted else where i have had a very turbulent time as a Christian..I'm farrrrrr from perfect,far less then anyone shown in the clip..
I recently started listening to Todd Wagner sermons out of Watermark and the sense of community is amazing..Its a issue that's kept me away from Church for a long time!!To find a Church where you really are brothers and sisters must be an amazing feeling..
Of course i agree Ted was fake..Im from england we don't really buy into that tv stuff over here ;-)
All i'm saying is,i have some concerns that their experiences(like mine) COULD be molding what they now see as the real Gospel..I think that COULD be dangerous..
you & i are not that far apart here bro GB
andy
ps Bartle as you addressed that post to me..I just wanted to say i agree with what you said about the girl and her clothes..I'd be the last person to criticize someone over morals or modesty,with my past..
aj
edited to say i guess i am criticizing them over morals about the cussing... drattttttttttttt :-P
I am sort of jumping into all your conversations, but this is the first I've seen this thread.
I don't know if any of you know it, but Art Katz and the Burning Bush www.benisrael.org live in Christian community. They have large numbers of believers living in one house and Art says the church needs that community because, just as one of the women on the video said, it causes you to be seen in all your flaws and sins and gives opportunity for iron to sharpen iron and for our heart issues to be addressed.
I will say no more about this because I have never even heard of this ministry before, but I too would want to know where they stand on holiness, abortion, homosexuality and others absolutes of the faith. They seemed to be real close to Woodstock. It brought back shades of my teen years sitting on the beach stoned on LSD. We got together and discussed God and IChing too, we had our fellowship and thought we would die for each other, but didn't give up our vices.
I been thinking about what you wrote, pondering, and here's the conclusion that I come to in my heart:
they're in hell already, they live in hell, the broken families, the drug addictions,the failed relationships, the empty one night stands, the hate, the envy, the malice, the slander, the emptiness, the club life, the booze, the low wage nine to five "straight" job, when they all desire to be artists or musicians. They live in hell already and they know it in their deepest hearts. They are empty, hungry and searching.
So why instead of making the opening salvo, how they are not "fit for heaven", why not speak and live and show the first words that Jesus said, "Repent, the Kingodm of Heaven is near you", make them envious of so great a salvation, BY OUR LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER, engendered by, through and for Jesus.
A lot of them don't even BELIEVE that the Bible is the Word of God, so quoting out of it will get you nowhere. So show them Jesus (I'm not lecturing at you Mike, just thinking out loud)Show them how Jesus was not only Son of God borne of woman, but a true for real revolutionary.
They all love Che Guevara, they don't really know who is, but they liked that darn shirt, Che Guevara used a gun, killed people, plotted to kill people. Jesus said there is no greater thing than a man lay down his life for his friends, you ready to lay down your life? for real, to die now, for a friend? Are you ready to be slapped and not slap back but to offer up the other check? Are you ready to forgive the parent that raised you wrong, beat you, hit you or worse? Are you ready to forgive them? and then call them on the phone, and I say, I love you?
are you ready to spend that $50 bucks you were gonna spend at the club tommorrow night filling yourself full of Long Island Ice Tea's or tequilla, and go out and buys socks and gloves for the multitude of homeless walking the streets and tell them you love them, because if Jesus loves me, He loves you? You ready to stop screeching about the ill effects of globalism, give up your comfy life in the empire and go work in an Aids orphanage in Rwanda, and while your loving the unloved there, to tell these wee ones about your Father, and no his name is not Mr Gen X or Ms. I love to do good, because I'm a good person", but my Fathers Name is Jesus, His Name is Yahweh, His Name is "I am", and thats why I wanna care for you, beacuse I wanna do His work, because He told me to "Turn, beacuse the Kingodm of God is near you, are you ready to be a real, for real born again revolutionary?
look around, everybody around you is unholy, they use their bodies in unholy ways, put all sorts of junk into body mind and soul, they're the squares, because what they are into is pack behavior, but if you say "no, Jesus is my All in All, and I'm gonna save the act of love for the one mate that God will bring me, and when we marry, become one in God's eye and I get pregnant, I'm not going to consider "my choice", but to bring a new soul into the world, and love this baby and raise this beauty right.
Do you want to be a REAL revolutionary?, thats what I would say.
and pack behavior isnt only confined to the club kids, the young ones, its much the same in the mainstream church, gottta look good, gotta sound good, gotta mouth the same platitudes, and the same verbiage, say "praise the Lord" at the right times, gotta tick off the same "doctrine" A B C, out of rote, gotta call yourself a calvinist or an arminianist, whatever those are, heaven forbid you should show yourself vunerable or weak or stumbling or in need of an ear to listen. Heaven forbid, you should want to spend a service face down on the floor of the church, cratered and broken, weeping and moaning, Heaven forbid you should ever read a Bible other than the King James.
church has become like going to google and punching place a to place b and the google engine will spit out concise by the number directions. If a person is confessing Jesus because they dont wannna go to hell, then they're not holding the Living Stone.
thats what i got to say.
Bartle,
I thank you for your heart felt post. Although you addressed it to me, for the record I should state I don't drink Long Island Ice Teas at the club and I certainly have no ambition to be a revolutionary.
And I am too much of an introverted guy to fire "opening salvos" at people. The language "being made fit for heaven" is an expression I picked up from Jonathan Edwards...because it makes sense to Christians. (That's who I'm talking to presently I presume...)
Goodness...I wonder how much of the disagreement and contention we feel around here is due to the presumtpion of our imaginations? Are we accustomed to taking all our hurts and dissapointments from the evangelical church and wrapping them into one persona called 'the evangelical Christian?' As if every Evangelical Christian we meet is guilty of all the hurts and offenses we've accumulated from the church over a life time?
By the way, I completely agree with your ideals...but rest assured I come no where close to measuring up to them. And if I did...it would only be brief archs up into the spiritual stratosphere...and I certainly wouldn't be boasting of such rare behavior in here. Just in case there were any doubts about my testimony here at SI...let me confirm them. All your discernments about my conservative evangelical leanings are true.
If you think that's bad, just consider...that's my best side... imagine the parts you don't know about me. (But at least I still don't drink Long Islands ;-))
Blessings,
MC
bro, that dialgue I got up into, is what i would be saying IN THE MIDST of one of these po mo emrgent churches, not to you. I was kind of sermonizing my thoughts to an imaginary crowd. I hear dialogue I hear sermons in my mind and in my heart, wasnt directed to you...lol
neil
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