How did Satan sin?

If Satan was at one point sinless, how was it possible for him to sin?

If he was made perfect, and there was no sin in him, where could evil thoughts come from? where in Heaven, could any form of temptation, or a picking up of a bad attitude or any wrong influence to his thinking be found?

Eve sinned after she was tempted and lied to and decieved. She had no knowledge of evil, no imtimacey with it. Is it unreasonable to pressume that Satan, a creation of God, holy, also had no knowledge of evil? or did he? i dont know, just trying to get my head around this. Glad to hear everyones thoughts..

could it really be that simple? maybe im just trying to go deeper than i should.

i still can understand how a sinless heart could be jealous, i thought, he would utterly abhor any such thought that would enter his thinking? if he had the nature of God, wouldnt he despise and hate sin? how could an intelligent being reason that somehow he could have independance or victory over God? and why would he want to if God meet his every need, and fullfilled him, surely there is more to this.

Why did Eve take a bite of the apple?

TJ

I definitely wouldn't take too much time pondering this one, but its a good question.

I will say that before Satan was jealous, he was proud. read isaiah 14. it might quench some of your thirst about what happened.

Theologically however, only God knows!!! :)

Yes it's very interesting to consider. I really don't know though. The Bible is not descriptive in describing the Angels. We really are left 'clueless' to much of their "history" and whatnot...

I mean, the important details are there, of course...

But how did Satan sin?... Not like us, but also like us... they had a free will like us. God didn't make robots, hehe. The temptation came from within... but that has boggled me too, because Angels don't have the flesh, that keeps us down, only the "spirit"..

Did Satan have a knowledge of Evil?.. Dunno.

Jordan

thanks guys, more food for thought.

why did eve bite the apple?

the blank canvas of her mind had been messed up with satans brush strokes of temptation and lies. Her pure mind now had impure thoughts, in a way, thoughts of evil entered her mind before she took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, maybe it was how she responded to satans voice.

did she have conscience before the fall? did she need one?

she knew not to eat coz God had told her, but the bible does say she was decieved, so , hmmmmmm, HHHMMMMMMM ponder ponder

Also, id heard that satan led a third of the angels in rebellion, is that true, i cant seem to find any reference to that, only bits in 1/2nd Peter and JUde about the angels who left there first abode, now why on earth would they want to do that??!! :-P

Satan was the most beautiful, sang the loudest, shone the brightest of all the angels. Angels were created beings, created by the Supreme Creator. Angels at some point began, God the Father knows no beginning or end. Lucifer the chief angel sought the place of the Almighy, believing that his place in the heirarchy of angels entitled him to worship, which belongs to God alone. The Son of God came as a servant, to seek and to save that which is lost, the opposite of self-centered, selfish, self-entitled spirit of Lucifer.
The place of sin began in Lucifer's pride and that is the same sin that he brought to the garden. Eve saw the tree and desired the knowledge that she might become as God. If you examine the scripture carefully, Eve was not yet created when God gave Adam the commandment.

Satan has not changed his tactics, why should he, they work so well...
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

I hope this was helpful

Rich

Sombody must enlighten me. Who says we have free will? I only see the will of man in two places.
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

All else I see is the Will of God. It is not my free will that I chose to be saved. It says iniquity was found in satan, where did this iniquity come from? By his own free will? He has no free will. We have no free will. OOOps I let the cat out of the bag now.

In Christ by the Will of God. Phillip

Hi, I've also considered questions like this: e.g.. why did He create the devil if He knew he would betray Him etc..

I heard a very good sermon recently about evil before the creation..The pastor put forward the argument that because God is Good this creates the situation where evil must be at least possible i.e there can be no small if there's not a large etc..

Following on from that,he answered why did God not destroy Satan then and there..His answer was God had to let Satan's plans come to full fruition,as an example of what would result in going our own way,that if he hadn't it would result in the Angelic realm pondering "i wonder & what if"

andy

Lucifer's sin was pride. God had created him to be first among the angels, the brightest, the most beautiful, the best, God's highest creation at the time. And with the power God gave Lucifer, God also created him with his entire angelic being to be the worship leader for all the angels.

For many eons of eternity Lucifer delighted in his special position, always having access to God, always at the forefront of the angels, devising creatively music to delight God's ears.

Oddly, Lucifer seems to be the only angel with creative gifts that we know about. Michael is a warrior, Gabriel the Holy messenger, the other angels messengers, soldiers, protectors of God's elect.

I believe that in Lucifer's creative gifts lay his downfall. Anyone who has dealt with music ministers in even the smallest church knows that these musicians are the superstars, many times supplanting even the Pastor. In Judaism, it is common for the Cantor to fight for extra time for songs at the expense of the Rabbi.

Lucifer began to think that he was as good as the God he led the worship for. Then he began to think he could replace God, and in one fatal moment, he imagined taking God's place, and secured His downfall, for Lucifer's sin was one of the heart.

And having the high position, and great influence of his position, Lucifer managed to persuade other angels that they could have more than God had allotted them, appealing to their pride as well. Lucifer is a terrific liar - perhaps he believes it is only creative storytelling. He's such a good liar he has deceived even himself into believing that his abilities can overwhelm the God who made him.

And so the morning star fell from grace, and took a third of heaven with him. And God has been using him ever since as a thorn in mankind's side, to test and try us.

Oh, how I look forward to a glorified body that cannot be tempted, and a millenium of human development without that !*^$^%^& to make things harder for humans during that time. It won't be as perfect as Eden, but with Jesus ruling, and the saints as all the government, teachers, and pastors, it will be a wondrous time.

A pity that God plans to use Lucifer again at the end of the millenium, to weed out the wheat from the tares once again. It would be nice to be done with the devil forever.

It is not my free will that I chose to be saved.

I think the confusion with the term "free Will" is the word "free."

What does "free" mean?
Is it that, what ever we choose, there is a price?
If that is the meaning, then free will is a myth.
However, if free means that we are free to choose from our own volition, then all creation including angles have free will.

If, again, God chooses all our choices for all creation, then, what is the point of creation.

Theire would be know real love to return to Him, if HE makes us love Him, if he puts the choices in us to make us choose what He wills.

Christin you is correct in this, that It says iniquity was found in satan, meaning, it wasn't there before.
If iniquity wan't there to start with, Lucifer must have willed it to be in there by pride.

He sinned with out a "sin nature" or "original sin".
Cirtanly God didn't will for that to happen!
Therefore, it wasn't pre-ordained, but only forknown.

Is God fair? Why was anything created? For His own good pleasure. He killed His own Son to get more son's, did He not. His Love is so overwhelming we cannot understand it.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Did God love His Son Jesus? Did it please Him to make Him suffer. Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

We take to much of self and leave out the Self that God is. He will have son's in His House, and they will please Him. This is not a choice on our part it is a given on His Part.

Satan was created for God's pleasure and if the Iniquity that was found in Him was pleasing to God that we might learn in this schoolhouse of God by His Special Teacher and Nature born again in the simple creation of a man, that we would learn what is evil and what is pleasing to Him who is our Father and Creator and God, then so be it. He is the Potter we are the clay, He can do as it pleases Him. He has justified Himself in making us son's of God by giving His Only begotten Son in our place and now He can exalt them both to His House.

Our God is a consuming Fire and we are just a small flickering tiny ember that He is going to make Flames of Love roaring with loving warmth in His own House. We will love Him as He wants and Needs us to. Just like Jesus Christ. He will use what He pleases to make His creation what He wants it to be.

In Christ learning to love God our Father as He wishes. What is the greatest thing a father wants from his children. To return His love and training and protection unto Himself.

We love Him because He first Loved us and gave Himself or us.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of (honest well worthy deeds) good works.

Being purified unto the Worthiness of God our Father:
Phillip

Truly, Phillip, we have some say in the matter. Yes, God is sovereign over all, and must prepare us to receive Him, for we cannot in our human simplicity understand immediately what God wants us for.

God has to give us the understanding, but we must choose or refuse based on the information He gives us.

Yes, God must call us, but we can pray for Him to call others not yet saved, and who might not be included in the original call.

'And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.' Mark 8:34-38 KJV

Blessedly, it is 'whosoever will', upon hearing the word of God, and receiving understanding of that word.

Does God do the initial choosing? Yes, in the sense that He begins the courtship, and He does the proposing. Once we have accepted that proposal, God allows us to pray for others to be courted in the same way.

'And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Luke 11:9-13 KJV

God does not want robots. He wants a family, children who love and trust Him. Even the angels were given the ability to serve or not serve. And yes, there are consequences for refusing God. He won't force you, but if you reject Him, He has no further use for you.

Will those who choose themselves to worship over worshiping the God who created them end up in a fiery hell? The devil and his angels will. But God did say 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'

Pray for those that choose themselves over God that their dead spirit merely causes them to be blotted out. For having created us, God has the right to do whatsoever He will with us, according to His justice and mercy.

God will see to that he does not have Robots as children. He would have done that in the first place. God is true to His Own Self and all that He does is Perfect.

Isaiah 41:24-26 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you. I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay. Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou [art] our father; we [are] the clay, and thou our potter; and we all [are] the work of thy hand.

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

By this He had to kill His own Son that He might put Him in us to become what He wants as son's.

That is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: a living breathing son of God who is learning to love Him as He wants.

Pray always for those that are not.

Phillip

thats some good stuf guys, im still not satisfied though! but hey!

imagine a class of pure water in a world of absolute purity, how would it be possible for the water to become dirty or contaminated?

likewise, satan's heart was pure, he lived in heaven, a place of absoloute purity, how was it possible for his heart/mind to have an impure thought?

one person said that they didnt have the flesh or a sin nature like we do, so where did pridefull thoughts come from?

the only thing i can think of is that of opposites, if satan could understand that, big small, happy sad, light dark, hot cold etc, then with a powerfull creative mind maybe he pondered what the opposite of obedience and submission and dependance would be like?

someone else said, maybe his downfall came in his creative abilty. If we christians can meditate so deeply on things like this, then im sure the angels could too

i just find it hard to understand how he could entertain such thoughts if he was perfect and holy without someone lieing or decieving him. surely he must have feared God, being in his very presence and God knowing the thoughts of his heart, would here dare allow his thoughts to meditate on rebellion?

the other view, is that he was created evil??? any thoughts on that one?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Would not this be the same as Satan to dishonour and Christ and believers to HONOUR?

1 Thessalonians 4:1-4 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

How is this taught? 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.

What is the purging from the old life of sin and dishonour in our father the devil, unto the vessel of Honour, filled by the Holy Spirit and The Spirit of Christ that is now our spirit, by birthing, His Spirit that liveth in us. Without which we are none of His.

We must see that we are no longer vessels of dishonour, but sanctified by the Christ In us unto good work and vessels of honour. How are we to think? Are we to still hold on to the sin nature we used to be or are we to see ourselves as God see's us by the whole life of God birthed in us. Christ is our life, The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and God the Father even with Christ Jesus makes His abode with us.

Seek your sins if you want but that is not what God intended from before the foundation of the earth. He wants us in Christ Jesus and us knowing we also have Christ Jesus in us.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Know that without darkness there is no light. Our sin is no longer sin to God but to us. The light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ does take away our sin and gives us light to the living Light that is born again in us, that we might be well pleasing to God in Christ Jesus. Jesus is His perfect plan of peace and righteousness in us. Don't let Satan still keep us from God with lies that we are yet sinners and cannot attain what God Planned before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

What? Holy and without blame before Him in Love? Not possible, we still have to atone for our sin, right? Wrong!
That has already been taken care of, now believe it and seek the things that are above, not the thing of this earth where we no longer live, are we not just passing through.

Ephesians 1:5-7 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Who's Will?

Seeking what? Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Risen with Christ? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Psa 35:17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.

He has rescued us. Praise God. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Who is it that lives? It is Christ that lives in us. How do we live? We live by the Faith of the Son of God. Then where is this Christ we are talking about? Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Christ is in us. Sin and Holiness cannot live in the same place, just like light and darkness, the Light takes away the darkness. Live in darkness if you want, but that is the lie of the devil your old father who still wants to pull the body of flesh into the lie of us still being our own gods and cleaning up our own act by not sinning.

How can we be perfect in Christ? Not by still believing the devil. But believing we are new creature in Christ Jesus. Ask all the question you want of if I still sin, but that is not the problem, the problem is, most of us still believe that this make us sinners by nature. Wrong!

By Nature, we are a new Creature in Christ Jesus, John says, because He Jesus Christ is in us and His Seed remains, we are not sinners anymore.

Who's Seed? Thy Seed, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

He is the One that has rescued us from this body of sin and death.

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you born of God? Is Christ in you? Are you a new Creature? The life you live, is it Now? Our sin is no longer important anymore, it is the life of Christ in us that matters and that life is all we should seek, Like Paul, "All we should want is to know Him more. Because He is the One that will rescue us from this body of sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In Christ: Phillip

hi philip, i didnt understand what you were getting at with your post,were you saying that i shouldnt be focused on sin or were you just generalising?

good post, you just kinda went on a bit of a tangent. i think

The latest thought was, how could a pure mind have impure thoughts unless they came from the outside. but how could that happen in heaven. make sense?

Sorry I was working on another bible study for tonight and made a bunch of mistakes. I rewrote it and hope it is more clear.

In Christ: Phillip

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Would not this be the same as Satan to dishonour and Christ and believers to HONOUR?

1 Thessalonians 4:1-4 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

How is this taught? 2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work.

What is the purging from the old life of sin and dishonour in our father the devil, unto the vessel of Honour, filled by the Holy Spirit and The Spirit of Christ that is now our spirit, by birthing, His Spirit that liveth in us. Without which we are none of His.

We must see that we are no longer vessels of dishonour, but sanctified by the Christ In us unto good work and vessels of honour. How are we to think? Are we to still hold on to the sin nature we used to be or are we to see ourselves as God see's us by the whole life of God birthed in us. Christ is our life, The Holy Spirit is our Teacher and God the Father even with Christ Jesus makes His abode with us.

Seek your sins if you want but that is not what God intended from before the foundation of the earth. He wants us in Christ Jesus and us knowing we also have Christ Jesus in us.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Know that without darkness there is no light. Our sin is no longer sin to God but to us. The light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ does take away our sin and gives us light to the living Light that is born again in us, that we might be well pleasing to God in Christ Jesus. Jesus is His perfect plan of peace and righteousness in us. Don't let Satan still keep us from God with lies that we are yet sinners and cannot attain what God Planned before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

What? Holy and without blame before Him in Love? Not possible, we still have to atone for our sin, right? Wrong!
That has already been taken care of, now believe it and seek the things that are above, not the thing of this earth where we no longer live, are we not just passing through.

Ephesians 1:5-7 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Who's Will?

Seeking what? Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Risen with Christ? Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Psa 35:17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.

He has rescued us. Praise God. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Who is it that lives? It is Christ that lives in us. How do we live? We live by the Faith of the Son of God. Then where is this Christ we are talking about? Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Christ is in us. Sin and Holiness cannot live in the same place, just like light and darkness, the Light takes away the darkness. Live in darkness if you want, but that is the lie of the devil your old father who still wants to pull the body of flesh into the lie of us still being our own gods and cleaning up our own act by not sinning.

How can we be perfect in Christ? Not by still believing the devil. But believing we are new creature in Christ Jesus. Ask all the question you want of if I still sin, but that is not the problem, the problem is, most of us still believe that this make us sinners by nature. Wrong!

By Nature, we are a new Creature in Christ Jesus, John says, because He Jesus Christ is in us and His Seed remains, we are not sinners anymore.

Who's Seed? Thy Seed, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

He is the One that has rescued us from this body of sin and death.

1 John 3:8-9 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Are you born of God? Is Christ in you? Are you a new Creature? The life you live, is it Now? Our sin is no longer important anymore, it is the life of Christ in us that matters and that life is all we should seek, Like Paul, "All we should want is to know Him more. Because He is the One that will rescue us from this body of sin and death.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

In Christ: Phillip