Question on the Rapture

I've heard and read many different views on exactly what will happen just before and during Jesus' return. Including the extreme "Preterist" position that spiritualises everything post 70 AD, and says He did return then!

Apart from the above theory, I'm still "on the fence" re the question of exactly when "the Rapture" is supposed to take place.

A case can be made for the Rapture happening as n the Left Behind books - before the Second coming. After which, the Antichrist will soon appear. Some people quote "one shall be taken and the other left", although the context suggests that this may refer to the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD?), and that those who are "taken" are in fact those who are killed.

A case can also be made for the Second Coming and the Rapture happening at the same time, as in 1Thessalonians 4: 15 [b][i]For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Also 2Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.[/i][/b]

So many interpretations of Scripture - Pre Trib, post Trib, premillennial, post millennial, amillenial...

Personally I tend to think that the Rapture and the Return of Christ will be part of the same event, and perhaps the destruction of Antichrist and start of the Millennium as well.

Or maybe we just need to be ready, our "loins girded and our lamps burning", and don't need to know these things until they happen?

What do others think?

Jeannette

What do others think?

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13949&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Questions for those who don't believe in the rapture[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13886&forum=35]Rapture?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13622&forum=36#105598]The Secret Rapture Deception[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=13255&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1]The Rapture, Are you read?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13121&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Chronology of End Time events[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12404&forum=44]The Rapture[/url]

Here are a 'few' of the discussions that have taken place on this.

Or maybe we just need to be ready, our "loins girded and our lamps burning", and don't need to know these things until they happen?

"Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And [b]ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.[/b]
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord [b]when he cometh shall find watching[/b]: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 [b]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not[/b]." Luke 12:35-40

"Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, [b]My lord delayeth his coming[/b]; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 [b]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware[/b], and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, [b]which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will[/b], shall be beaten with many stripes." Luke 12:43-47

I'm ready and waiting. And whatever comes I'm going to be looking for His return for His Bride.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3

Roniya wrote:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13949&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Questions for those who don't believe in the rapture[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13886&forum=35]Rapture?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13622&forum=36#105598]The Secret Rapture Deception[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=13255&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1]The Rapture, Are you read?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13121&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Chronology of End Time events[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12404&forum=44]The Rapture[/url]

Here are a 'few' of the discussions that have taken place on this.

Jeannette[/b]

IRONMAN wrote:
hey sis jeanette
you know, the other day i saw JOhn hagee talking about how the 7 Churches mentioned in the Revelation indicate 7 Church ages with the last being the Laodicean age in which we're supposed to be. nowi didn't see the whole sermon but i wonder how he figured we'd be raptured if God told Laodicea He would spew them out if they didn't repent... :-?

[b]Yes, I've heard that teaching too - think Watchman Nee believed it. But its never made much sense to me. It seems much more likely that the 7 churches ALL represent examples of churches that are also found today[/b]

anyhow, to me it seems as though the final return of Christ will be at the same time as the rapture, i see them as the same thing because He is gathering together all His elect from all the four corners of the earth. the way Christ speaks to His disciples concerning the end times to me doesn't seem like He is telling them to expect a secret rapture but rather to gird their loins because they would be under persecution.

[b] It seems we agree here. The "secret Rapture" idea is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned, though my Preterist friend made quite a good case for it. He didn't however answer the question of how come not everyone in the world noticed Jesus return in AD 70? (He quoted some accounts of strange happenings or visions - such as voices in the Temple sayiung "let's go from this place" or something like that; and warriors or chariots in the clouds at the time of the Fall of Jerusalem, but not about Jesus Himself being seen). And he didn't answer what is going to happen if there isn't a "new heaven and a new earth" in the end. The old ones aren't going to last for ever, even if the Lord doesn't step in first.

That we in the Western nations are to expect persecution in the not to distant future seems obvious to me.[/b]

to me, we as the Church have a lot to answer for. indeed evil is expected of the world but we have enough dirt we need to repent of and be cleansed of before we can be raptured anywhere. if our Lord decides/has decided to use the trib for it then it will be so. Whether He uses the trib or not i guess doesn't matter, the bottom line is we are in need of serious correction. i fear that many people will be disappointed when the rapture doesn't happen, of course many pastors who propagated that message will have a lot of angry people on their hands. to me that is a big part of the great falling away. i don't get a sense that there will be any sweeping away of the Church before the final coming (Christ says nothing about coming secretly for the Church before the second coming) but then again i could be deceived in this matter.

[b] I don't think so! See my comment above[/b]

at any rate this is not a thing over which i will part ways with any fellow believer because the bottom line is, if we are here or not, God's grace is sufficient for us all. We can all agree on that.

[b] AMEN to that! [/b]

Little Gift wrote:

It seems we agree here. The "secret Rapture" idea is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned, though my Preterist friend made quite a good case for it. He didn't however answer the question of how come not everyone in the world noticed Jesus return in AD 70?

For instance; the prophecies in the Old Testement regarding the rebuilding of the Temple was prophecied for that time period, which you can read some of the history of that rebuilding in Ezra and Nehemiah. Haggai and Zacharia prophecy both the rebuilding of the temple THEN, and when Jesus Christ was coming to establish His Kingdom in men.

I am not mentioning the rapture here because alot of the rapture teachings comes from these ideas of prophecies. If we get the prophecies correct we will begin to have precept upon precept, line upon line.

A good starter point in all of this is Daniel 9:27, if you can get into your thinking that the "HE" that confirms the covenent with many for one week is none other than Jesus Christ, than you have just disspelled the concept that there is a future 7 year tribulation period.

If you can understand that, than your on your way to understanding that there is no such a thing as a Pretrib, Midtrib or Posttrib rapture teaching. Because that is where you get your 7 year tribulation in that one verse of Daniel 9:27.

Jeannette, your preterist friend is not that off base, you need to look at preterism in a 'Partial' light and not in the fullness. A good place to check this out would be a good brother of mine at [url=http://www.mikeblume.com/flash.htm]Mike Blume (click at the top Prophecy)[/url]

I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching, I taught it and ran with it, until I saw that Daniel 9:27 was Jesus Christ and not an Anti Christ coming to CONFIRM the covenant. All the other translations say something else, stick with the KJV.

God Bless as you seek TRUTH.

This is the kind of thead you get when you become bored with the bible.

Compliments wrote:
Little Gift wrote:

It seems we agree here. The "secret Rapture" idea is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned, though my Preterist friend made quite a good case for it. He didn't however answer the question of how come not everyone in the world noticed Jesus return in AD 70?

There are two different schools of thought in Preterism. Full Preterism, and Partial Preterism. A lot of what the "Last Days", "The Time of the End", "The Latter Days", "The Latter Times" etc.. are very much behind us.
[b]A lot, but by no means all. I think I would probably come under the heading of "partial preterist!" After all, some prophecies (such as parts of Matthew 24, but not all) were clearly to do with the fall of Jerusalem - at least in the first instance. Do you know of the concept of multiple fulfillments of prophecy? Makes sense of a lot of this maybe[/b]

...For instance; the prophecies in the Old Testement regarding the rebuilding of the Temple was prophecied for that time period, which you can read some of the history of that rebuilding in Ezra and Nehemiah. Haggai and Zacharia prophecy both the rebuilding of the temple THEN, and when Jesus Christ was coming to establish His Kingdom in men.
[b] But not only for that time period. [/b]

I am not mentioning the rapture here because alot of the rapture teachings comes from these ideas of prophecies. If we get the prophecies correct we will begin to have precept upon precept, line upon line.

[b] But how do you know that your interpretation is more correct than anyone else's? [/b]

A good starter point in all of this is Daniel 9:27, if you can get into your thinking that the "HE" that confirms the covenent with many for one week is none other than Jesus Christ, than you have just disspelled the concept that there is a future 7 year tribulation period. If you can understand that, than your on your way to understanding that there is no such a thing as a Pretrib, Midtrib or Posttrib rapture teaching. Because that is where you get your 7 year tribulation in that one verse of Daniel 9:27.

[b] Mmmm I'm not sure if that's the correct interpretation of that whole passage. And basing a doctrine on one verse is not good exegesis, you have to take Scripture as a whole, and even then we can't fully understand unless the Lord Himself opens our undertanding[/b]

Jeannette, your preterist friend is not that off base, you need to look at preterism in a 'Partial' light and not in the fullness. A good place to check this out would be a good brother of mine at [url=http://www.mikeblume.com/flash.htm]Mike Blume (click at the top Prophecy)[/url]

[b] Yes, I can accept much of the ideas of partial Preterism - think I've probably read one of his articles.[/b]

I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching, I taught it and ran with it, until I saw that Daniel 9:27 was Jesus Christ and not an Anti Christ coming to CONFIRM the covenant. All the other translations say something else, stick with the KJV.

[b] Looking at Daniel 9:27 again you could be right that it refers to Messiah, though I don't see how this proves the point you seem to be making. Or maybe I haven't understood what you're trying to say?

I like the KJV, mainly because of having been brought up with it, but it isn't the most accurate translation. Wish I was a good enough scholar to be able to dig into the original languages properly!

But again I would say that its usually dangerous to base a doctrine on an interpretation of one verse

Blessings

Jeannette[/b]

IRONMAN wrote:
...i guess we disagree on whether or not the church is ripe for correction. i think we are and i praise God that He chastens as many as He loves!

Jeannette[/b]

paulmcg1 wrote:
This is the kind of thead you get when you become bored with the bible.

So why are you on this thread?[/b]

Jeannette said:

But again I would say that its usually dangerous to base a doctrine on an interpretation of one verse

Regarding Daniel 9:27 I was showing you how the Dispensationalist believe that this is talking about an Anti Christ making a peace treaty with Israel for seven years, and in the middle of those years the antichrist would break the agreement. This is where the dispensationalist get thier 7 year tribulation period. I was merely showing you were they get the teaching, I do not subscribe in basing a teaching on one scripture, thats how cults are formed.

But the part must agree with the whole and vice versa.

As regarding the Rapture, I simply do not believe the teaching is valid. However, the resurrection on the hand is a subject that I am currently studying to see if this event is indeed in our past or is in our future. Not sure, still learning.

Compliments wrote:
Jeannette said:

But again I would say that its usually dangerous to base a doctrine on an interpretation of one verse

I agree whole heartedly. In dispensational theology your quote is very much true. For in dispensational theology there is alot of wishful thinking and bad interpretation of bible prophecy.

Regarding Daniel 9:27 I was showing you how the Dispensationalist believe that this is talking about an Anti Christ making a peace treaty with Israel for seven years, and in the middle of those years the antichrist would break the agreement. This is where the dispensationalist get thier 7 year tribulation period. I was merely showing you were they get the teaching, I do not subscribe in basing a teaching on one scripture, thats how cults are formed.

I'm not interested in dispensationalism or anti-diepensationalism. It seems that dispensationalism is simply a way of "organising" or categorising things to make them easier to grasp. Rather artificial but perhaps useful. The Greek word translated "dispensation" apparently means "house-order"[/b]

But the part must agree with the whole and vice versa.

As regarding the Rapture, I simply do not believe the teaching is valid.

However, the resurrection on the hand is a subject that I am currently studying to see if this event is indeed in our past or is in our future. Not sure, still learning.

Jeannette[/b]

staff wrote:
RE:The rapture
To me its clear from the passage below that God Cant carry out his judgement until we are out of here.When did he judge?the moment noah entered the ark and the moment lot left sodom.Not alone that but the two angels could not carry out distruction until lot had left sodom behind.Therefore we will not be hear during the 2nd half of the tribulation when God's judgement is carried out.

luke 17.24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

\tLuk 17:25\t\tBut first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

\tLuk 17:26\t\tAnd as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

\tLuk 17:27\t\tThey did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, [color=FF0033]until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.[/color]
\tLuk 17:28\t\tLikewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

\tLuk 17:29\t\t[color=FF3333]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] all.[/color]
One thing we all can agee is that we look forward to his coming

staff

Jeannette[/b]