A challenge for ALL

[b][color=990000]I have a challenge for everyone. We all have an NIV Bible around the house. Maybe some even prefer the NIV. In any event, get your NIV off the shelf, open the Old Testament and try to find the word HELL. Guess what? You will not be able to find it. It has been eliminated, 100% in the Old Testament by the translators of the NIV.

Also, in the NEW TESTAMENT, the word Hell appears 22 times in the Authorized Version (King James) and only 13 times in the NIV- a 59% reduction in the NIV versus the Authorized version.

What has that done to Church Doctrine? Take a look below and see for yourself:

Here are some examples:
[/color][/b]
KJV
DEU 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
NIV
For a fire has been kindled by my wrath, one that burns to the realm of death below. It will devour the earth and its harvests and set afire the foundations of the mountains.

KJV
2SA 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
NIV
The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.

KJV
JOB 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
NIV
They are higher than the heavens—what can you do? They are deeper than the depths of the grave—what can you know?

KJV
JOB 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
NIV
Death is naked before God; Destruction lies uncovered

KJV
PSA 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
NIV
The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God.

KJV
PSA 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
NIV
because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

KJV
PSA 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
NIV
The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.

KJV
PSA 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
NIV
Let death take my enemies by surprise; let them go down alive to the grave, for evil finds lodging among them.

KJV
PSA 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
NIV
For great is your love toward me; you have delivered me from the depths of the grave.

KJV
PSA 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow
NIV
The cords of death entangled me, the anguish of the grave came upon me; I was overcome by trouble and sorrow.

KJV
PSA 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
NIV
If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

KJV
PRO 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
NIV
Her house is a highway to the grave, leading down to the chambers of death.

KJV
PRO 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
NIV
But little do they know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of the grave.

KJV
PRO 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
NIV
Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD — how much more the hearts of men!

KJV
PRO 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
NIV
The path of life leads upward for the wise to keep him from going down to the grave.

KJV
PRO 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
NIV
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

KJV
PRO 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
NIV
Death and Destruction are never satisfied, and neither are the eyes of man.

KJV
ISA 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
NIV
Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers.

KJV
ISA 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
NIV
The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—all those who were leaders in the world;…

KJV
ISA 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
NIV
But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.

KJV
ISA 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement;…
NIV
You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death, with the grave we have made an agreement.

KJV
ISA 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
NIV
Your covenant with death will be annulled; your agreement with the grave will not stand…

KJV
ISA 57:9 …and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
NIV
…you descended to the grave itself!

KJV
EZE 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit:…
NIV
I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the grave with those who go down to the pit…

KJV
EZE 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword;…
NIV
Those who lived in its shade, its allies among the nations, had also gone down to the grave with it, joining those killed by the sword.

KJV
EZE 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
NIV
From within the grave the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’

KJV
EZE 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell…
NIV
Do they not lie with the other uncircumcised warriors who have fallen, who went down to the grave…

KJV
AMO 9:2 Though they dig into hell thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
NIV
Though they dig down to the depths of the grave, from there my hand will take them. Though they climb up to the heavens, from there I will bring them down.

KJV
JON 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
NIV
He said: “In my distress I called to the LORD, and he answered me. From the depths of the grave I called for help, and you listened to my cry.

KJV
HAB 2:5 …who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
NIV
…Because he is as greedy as the grave and like death is never satisfied, he gathers to himself all the nations and takes captive all the peoples.

[b][color=990000]Modern translations have tried to make the Bible more palatable and socially acceptable by taking some of the terror out of the fact that a man or woman who dies outside of faith in Jesus Christ goes to an eternal and conscious hell.

Translators do this in two ways. First, the word is often left in its untranslated Hebrew or Greek form (Sheol or Hades), thus greatly diminishing its impact upon anyone who reads or studies the NIV. The New American Standard version frequently reverts to this practice. Secondly, some simply translate sheol as “death” or “grave”. The Jehovahs Witness “Bible” does this as well!!!

The word “hell” is present 22 times within the NEW TESTAMENT OF THE AUTHORIZED BIBLE (KING JAMES), compared with only 13 occurrences in the text of the New International Version (NIV). The real shock,as PROVEN ABOVE, is to see that this popular translation (NIV) completely removes the word HELL from the Old Testament.[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever :-D

While I obviously agree with the premise of this thread... let's be careful on one very important point: In most cases, the NIV translators did not omit words or verses. They were already omitted or changed in the manuscripts they used to make the NIV. Now, you are correct that there are some places where Hell has been changed into something less threatening, but over all it was previously changed centuries ago.

(For those new to this issue, the KJV and all non-Catholic Bibles before 1881 were translated from one school of NT manuscripts called the Textus Receptus. All modern translations since 1881 are translated from a completely different set of NT manuscripts. As for the OT, the case is true as well.)

Again, I agree with the premise, but lets be careful not to falsely accuse the NIV translators. There are plenty of other things about them and their version that are wrong, we don't need to make things up.

Krispy

Ben... ugh... I couldn't disagree with you more, my brother. I dont mean any disrespect, but your point of view on versions is about as wishy-washy as I have seen, and indicates to me that perhaps you need to research this issue a little deeper.

As for errors... find me one error in the KJV. I'm not talking about words that could perhaps be translated a little clearer, because thats very subjective. I'm talking about errors. You said errors... so show me one. In 3 years of studying this, so far no one has been able to show me one legitimate error.

But I can show you contradictions in all of the modern versions. Every one of them.

As for needing to learn greek and hebrew in order to correctly read the Word of God... my God is bigger than that. He preserved His Word (as He [b]promised[/b] He would... and it's available in almost every known language on earth.

Love ya tho, bro! Happy researching!

Krispy

KrispyKrittr wrote:
While I obviously agree with the premise of this thread... let's be careful on one very important point: In most cases, the NIV translators did not omit words or verses. They were already omitted or changed in the manuscripts they used to make the NIV. Now, you are correct that there are some places where Hell has been changed into something less threatening, but over all it was previously changed centuries ago.

(For those new to this issue, the KJV and all non-Catholic Bibles before 1881 were translated from one school of NT manuscripts called the Textus Receptus. All modern translations since 1881 are translated from a completely different set of NT manuscripts. As for the OT, the case is true as well.)

Again, I agree with the premise, but lets be careful not to falsely accuse the NIV translators. There are plenty of other things about them and their version that are wrong, we don't need to make things up.

Krispy

Stever responds:

Are you saying the following is incorrect?:

[b][color=000000]"...., the word (Hell) is often left in its untranslated Hebrew or Greek form (Sheol or Hades), thus greatly diminishing its impact upon anyone who reads or studies the NIV.[/color][/b]

The translators are the ones who made the decision in not using the actual word Hell, and leaving it in the untranslated Sheol and Hades, and even using the term death, instead of hell. They completely eliminated it, 100% in the Old Testament and reduced it by 59% in the New Testament.

God bless,

Stever

:-D

I'm not going to argue with you about this. We're in agreement on this issue. I was merely stating that in SOME cases it was not the translators who made the changes in the modern versions. But in your zealousness you refuse to understand what I'm saying.

Slow down, cat daddy. Dont be in such a rush to blow people away.

Krispy

Hello Krispy: I am not being zealous here. I just spent several hours documenting what took place in the Old Testament- chapter by chapter and verse by verse. There is indeed an elimination of the word hell in the Old Testament, 100%. This can only be found in the NIV. The New American Standard has eliminated some of the references to hell in the same way as the NIV. However, only in the NIV is the word Hell eliminated completely from the Old Testament.

There is no "zeal" in my position. If my position is wrong on this issue, please provide me with specific examples in order that I can change my position. Please provide me with specific examples from Scripture.

Also, please stop calling names. That seems to go on quite a bit on this newsgroup whenever this issue is brought to light (Bible Versions). I don't want to "blow anyone away" AND I am not "being zealous", [b][color=0000FF]I just want to stay on track and be intellectually and ScripturallY HONEST without anyone calling me names (hopefully).[/color][/b]

God bless,

Stever :-D

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm not going to argue with you about this. We're in agreement on this issue. I was merely stating that in SOME cases it was not the translators who made the changes in the modern versions. But in your zealousness you refuse to understand what I'm saying.

Slow down, cat daddy. Dont be in such a rush to blow people away.

Krispy

oh brother... :-o

Do you even read people's posts? I doubt it.

It's stupid for me to argue with you about this, mainly because there isnt anything to argue about. All I said was your post makes it sound like the NIV'ers removed every reference to hell in the OT, when it's only true that they removed SOME of the references because the others had already been removed centuries before.

Dont know how you missed that... but I could venture a guess. Not sure it would be well received by you tho.

We're saying the same thing, Steve. All I wanted to see was you refine your post so it was a little clearer. But instead, you smell blood in the water. That is what give those of us who support the KJV a bad name. Over zealousness. And yes... you are.

Dont bother replying... I have nothing more to say on this issue.

It's not your words, or your premise that is a turn-off... it's your attitude. You're saying so much you cant hear anyone else.

Krispy

Dear Krispy:

My point is that the actual english word HELL is eliminated in the Old Testament from the NIV. Other words, that have little or no meaning, words that are still in the Hebrew, are used in it's place.

The NIV does not do this consistently for any other word, other than HELL, in the Old Testament. That is my point.

Is is a bad thing that this has happened? [color=990000]The NIV is being shipped throughout the world by the millions to the indigenous peoples. What effect does the elimination of HELL have on them?[/color]

The following is from Robertson McQuilkin-who is president emeritus of Columbia International University and the Evangelical Missiological Society:

"executive editor J. I. packer notes in the foreword to Ajith Fernando's book Crucial Questions About Hell, "Emphasis on the lostness of the lost has come to be almost taboo. The shift is startling."

Now we emphasize the glory of the God whom we love, almost to the exclusion of the uncomfortable truths about the lostness of the lost. Indeed, a new missions text, The Changing Face of World Missions (Baker Academic, 2005), has a chapter entitled, "Changing Motivations for Missions: From 'Fear of Hell' to 'the Glory of God.'" Of course, God's glory has always been primary for the church. The great American theologian Jonathan Edwards—he of the "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" fame—looked forward to a "general revival of religion" that would be "very glorious … special and extraordinary" and would produce the "flourishing of Christ's kingdom on earth."

But deliberately downplaying the motive of other-love will prove fatal, I fear. Actually, we're not shy about expressing our love for others, as long as the focus remains on the needs of the here-and-now. Holistic concern for health, education, and justice is okay, advocates tell us. But other-love in terms of a rescue mission from a bad ending—WELL, THAT'S SO OFFENSIVE TO THE POSTMODERN WE MUSTN'T EVEN MENTION IT, LET ALONE EMPHASIZE IT.

The way I read John 3:16, however, is that God so loved people he gave his one and only Son to—do what? Save them from perishing (HELL). That's God's motive, so it can't be too wrong. [b][color=990000] I believe the shift among evangelicals to de-emphasize hell could prove the demise of Pauline-style missions. And thus it could lead to the spiritual death of multitudes who would, as a consequence, never hear the Good News of redemption.[/color][/b]

Déjà Vu

[b][color=990000]If that should happen, of course, it would be a case of déjà vu, for that is precisely what took place in the early part of the last century. The mainline denominations moved away from saving people from hell to saving them in the here and now.

With every move in that direction, the missions enterprise shriveled. And no wonder. Why make such great sacrifices to reach the unreached if there is no eternal-destiny danger?[/color][/b]

[b][color=0000FF]This shift was coupled then—as now—with entertaining the possibility of other ways to be acceptable to God than through faith in Jesus Christ. If the past is any guide, we seem to face once again the slow demise of missions as it is found in the New Testament. That's why I consider the question of final destiny the theological issue for missions in our postmodern context.[/color][/b]

Without apology, we may love others in many ways: seeking their health, promoting justice, advancing education. But above all, we should love them into eternal life, away from eternal death.

May our churches never fail to love as God loves, to extend his provision of eternal salvation to the 1.8 billion out-of-reach people. God was motivated by people-love, so that must be our motivation as well, if we are to be like him.

But of course we also are motivated above all by the Great Commandment, to love God. And one way to do that is to keep the spotlight on him, to glorify him. I must say, however, that the move to make "the glory of God" the primary "motive" so far has not increased missions passion in churches, if we gauge that passion by the numbers of new pioneer missionary evangelistic church planters.

[b][color=990000]We can express our love for God in many ways. But the proof of love, said Jesus, is that we obey his commandments. And the commandment he returned to over and over following his resurrection? Go and proclaim the good news of redemption (Mark 16:15), go and preach repentance and remission of sin (Luke 24:47), go and disciple the nations (Matt. 28:19) to the uttermost parts (Acts 1:8).

Let us not forget the unreached as we strategize, and let us not neglect God's own motive of RESCUING PEOPLE FROM HELL. By all means, we glorify him by sending, going, and finishing the task, but we are also moved, as he is, by love for those who are perishing.[/color][/b]

Robertson McQuilkin is president emeritus of Columbia International University and the Evangelical Missiological Society.

KrispyKrittr wrote:
oh brother... :-o

Dont bother replying... I have nothing more to say on this issue.

Krispy

I agree with you... you're preaching to the choir. I simply felt you were being too broad and general in your original post.

Krispy

To Krispy:

I am not "preaching" to anyone. I have revealed factual evidence --the word hell has been elimated in the NIV Bible entirely in the Old Testament, and has been elimated by 59% in the New Testament and has been replaced with Hebrew and Greek Words
that have no meaning to us today. This is of the utmost interest and concern to me, and should be of interest to others in the Body of Christ.

Krispy, since you are already aware of this point, fine. However, many other Christians have no knowledge of this fact, and hence the reason why I am posting this.

[u][b]Also, there is a direct correlation to the removal of hell from Scripture and the dismal results of world evangelism for Christ in 3rd world countries today. What Bible is in the highest demand in these countries? What Bible is being printed by the multi-millions and distributed to these countries? The NIV that has been translated into all of these indigenous and 3rd world languages. There is a direct correlation between these two facts.[/b][/u]

If you have anything that will add something to this thread, then please do so. If not, let others respond.

God bless,

Stever :-D

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I agree with you... you're preaching to the choir. I simply felt you were being too broad and general in your original post.

Krispy

Cat Daddy is not a bad name, this is just Krispy's sense of humor coming across.

Correct... it's a term of endearment... like "dude" or "buddy".

I think if your tone was not so aggressive you may have had a good conversation going here. Instead, you've gotten replies from 3 people. Most of them from me: someone who agrees with you. What does that tell you? (I know you're gonna say apathy... but thats not the case.)

Krispy

If you have anything that will add something to this thread, then please do so. If not, let others respond.

My frequent posts are not in any way preventing others from posting. :-)

Krispy

... ya know what I mean...

... Cat Daddy!

If the people who are arguing this point would spend the same time in prayer, and in the pursuit of holiness, then they might know God.

That wasnt judgemental and presumptuious at all. ;-)

Now, let's dispense of the put downs and arrogance, and get to the point. I read thru the website you linked in your post. There are many things wrong with this persons historocity and information, but perhaps this next quote is the most telling:

He says "[i]In reference to the Holy Spirit, the KJV usage of "he" rather than "it" implies the [b]false notion of the trinity[/b].[/i]"

So, Ben... you're citing a source put together by someone who does not even believe in the Trinity. He is not a Bible believer. That draws a huge question mark over everything he has to say about the Bible.

I suspect that you believe in the Bible, and in the Trinity, so I will assume you googled "KJV errors" and linked the first website that came up. However, if you dont believe in the Trinity, then I can see why you would use a source such as this.

As to the so-called "errors" cited in that list, every single one of them have been answered by scholars over and over again. Perhaps you could google "KJV errors refuted" and find the answers.

As I said, I dont consider "better way to translate" certain words to be "error". It is not error, it is too subjective to be "error". Error is, for example, a contridiction... which the modern versions are full of. The KJV is not.

Ben, I love ya bro... I forgive you for your volatile and demeaning words to me and Steve. :-)

Krispy