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Is It God’s Will To Heal…ALL the time?

R
Racward Feb 23, 2007

this is not my article but is from our forum

Is It God’s Will To Heal…ALL the time?

First, let us state that our God is the Healer! Amen!

Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

There is no doubt as to the fact that God heals…

As well, there is no doubt as to the fact that God also does not always heal:

2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Paul the Apostle left a man sick, as no healing was forthcoming.

The Apostle who encountered the Lord Jesuss personally!

The Apostle who was used by God to raise the DEAD!

THIS Apostle left a man sick, as apparently God was not healing Trophimus!

Did Paul lack faith?

Scripture would indicate, through the exegetical study of the character and life of the Apostle, that he did not lack faith; the one who had faith to raise the dead could surely have prayed a simple prayer of faith, could he not?

This leads one to conclude that faith is an essential ingredient to the healing process, yet it is not “the” ingredient.

Let us now look to further Biblical evidences of godly saints who did not receive healing:

Exodus 4:10-14

And Moses said unto the LORD, O my LORD, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

And he said, O my LORD, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.

These few Scriptures, Beloved, give us insight into a powerful truth:
God does not always heal!

Note the speech impediment of Moses.

Note that God did not say, “Moses…be healed!”

Rather, God promised to use the mouth of Aaron on behalf of Moses.

Beloved, did Moses lack faith?

Nothing indicates he lacked faith.

Also, later, Moses would part the Red Sea; thus, if he had faith to part that Sea, why not seek God for a healing after the parting of the Sea? I mean, did he not have faith?

Of course he did!

So then, why did God NOT heal Moses?

Simply put, Moses’ impediment looks to you and I as something that God had not originally intended for Moses to have…we would call this a “birth defect”.

However, the Lord says:

And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

It does not state that God did NOT make Moses this way, but the exegetical anology is the opposite!

God is saying, “I made you this way…I also made the blind, the deaf and the seeing!”

Ok.

God did that?

Yes.

How can one seek healing from that which God says is not “broken”?

Moses saw a defect; God saw beauty.

Now, back to the Apostle Paul:

We all know that Paul the Apostle had a special love for young Timothy, who was a student of the great Apostle.

Timothy suffered from stomach ailment, and we see something very interesting in this situation….

The Apostle Paul did not even TRY to pray for healing:

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Commenting on verse 23, Gill notes:

for thy stomach's sake; to help digestion, and to remove the disorders which might attend it: the Ethiopic version renders it, "for the pain of the liver", and "for thy perpetual disease"; which last might be a pain in his head, arising from the disorder of his stomach: the last clause we render,

Hence, I ask the question:

Do you mean to say that Paul, Timothy and the entire NT Early Church “had no faith” to seek the Lord for healing?

God did not heal Timothy; and we know that SOMEONE had faith….

This shows Faith is not the “end all” answer.

What is the answer?

Part 2 will discuss the Providence of God.

Part 2: The Providence of God In Healing:

1- What is Providence?

Providence is this, that God alone is God, that he will accomplish what He alone pleases, and when he does so, it is always in response to His Good Pleasure, and nothing to do with man; if man is to receive anything of God, it is because God first Providentially decreed that it should be so for that individual.

Isaiah 46:9-11

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

In short, this is the Providence of God; what God declares, it shall come to pass...what God says will take place.

Hence, what of those who state that if they "claim this or that" it must be done "according to faith"?

Faith, as seen in Part 1, is an ingredient, yet it is not "the" ingredient.

Look at it like this:

If one places faith in claiming that which God has not already decreed, that one's faith has been set in the wrong object; not in God, but in the think sought after from God; such a faith is useless and cannot bear fruit.

So, on to healing.

Let us see the Providence of God in healing the sick:

Acts 16:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

We see how Jesus Christ went bout healing "all" who were oppressed of the devil....

Wait a moment!

"All"?

Some misguided sheep will blanket such a verse saying, "all means all".

Exegetically, of course, such a view is simply the interpretation of one who has not spent persistent and adequte time in the Word of God; we know that Jesus Christ did not heal "all".

So, what does this mean?

Scripture interprets Scripture:

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Note that Jesus Christ was given, by His Father, power over "all" flesh, but now note that He laid no claim to giving eternal life to "all flesh...

Jesus had the power to give eternal life to "all"....so why didn't He?

The answer is in the second part of verse 2:

"...that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

We understand that God CAN heal all, that he CAN save all, that He CAN financially bless all...yet we understand that, according to verse 2, He does NOT do this for all; note that the Father's decree to the Son in verse 2 affects men....

The Father and the Son, as seen in verse 2, have come together and have decreed things which must take place concerning man...yet note that man is not involved in this issue of Providence.

Providence says "Let us make man in our image" (genesis 1); such Providence consults with no man.

Is it God's Will to heal?

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Look now to the model of this prayer of Christ Jesus...

Many would tell us today, and I believe many of you have heard it, that, we are not to pray "if it be Thy Will"....

I have heard some say this, as though it were a lack of Faith to pray such a prayer.

Such a view, when taken at it's point, causes, not faith to rise up, but presumption.

Presumption says: I KNOW God's Will.

Providence says: "Lord, what IS Your Will?"

Jesus prayed Providentially while many of us pray Presumptously.

Jesus, BEING the Word, didn't go to the Father and say, "Father, I AM the Word, and I know Myself, and I quote now the 10 Healing Verses to cause my faith to move Your Hand."

NO!

Jesus, the Incarnate Word of God, prayed, "Father....if THOU be Willing."

Now we all agree that Jesus, the Word, had Faith without measure, amen?

How could Jesus, the very Word of God, pray, "If It Be Thy Will"?

I'll tell you why, because Jesus, being the Word, understood that, as He walke dthis earth, in submission to the Will of the Father, He could not then usurp the Father's Will by becoming presumptous in declaring that which the father had not FIRST declared, which is always revealed through prayer.

Providence is God being God; and Providence consults with no man.

So, is it God's Will to heal...always?

It was God's Will and Good Pleasure that saw the Sinless Lamb of God shed His Saving Blood for all who would turn from their sins and call on the Name of Jesus for Redemption.

It was God's Will and Good Pleasure that allowed 11 of the 12 Apostles of die horrible deatsh for their faith.

It was God's Will and Good Pleasure that allowed Moses to remain, for the rest of his life, with a speech ipediment.

It was God's Will and Good Pleasure that allowed Paul to exhort Timothy to have wine for his stomach problem rathe rthan give him the quick fix of a drive-through miracle.

It was God's Will and Good Pleasure that Paul was called to suffer for the Name of Jesus.

You see, Providence is just that...Provindence.

Many say, "Don;t follow the examples of man... we are not to follow the examples of man!"

Misguided brethren say this in order to promote a false method of faith.

What, however, did Paul the Apostle say?

1 Cor 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1 cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

You see, Beloved, we ARE to note and take heed of the examples of those as found in the Word.

I see Paul the Apostle raising the dead...yet I also see him leaving men sick without being able to see them healed.

I see Paul the Apostle healing the sick....yet I also see Paul being beaten and whipped and thrown into prison.

I see Paul the Apostle never one single time exhorting anyone to "claim the promise" or "just believe"....

So, in conclusion:

We believe that God is Provindential, that he alone decrees a thing and that he alone causes it to come to pass....all Faith, healing, miracles, etc etc, if genuine, were already decreed by God before the foundations of the world; hence, that which has bene previously decreed by the Providence of God will always come to pass..that which has not, will not come to pass, regardless of confession, naming/claiming etc etc.

We believe God heals sometimes, yet not at all times, as the Word gives examples, and we are repeatedly told to follow these examples, regardless of what anyone says to the contrary; when paul said, "Follow my EXAMPLE" then we are to follow his example...lay to rest as unScriptural any statement which claims we are NOT to follow the examples of Scripture in the lives of the Saints.

We see that what we humans regard as sickness is sometimes seen by the Providence of God as beauty...such is the case with Moses...as a matter of fact, we see that the "anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses" when Moses questioned God on His Creative Ability...we ought to, as serious students of the Word, and as those who desire to please God,
be dilligent in

Now, here's HOW to know, in finality, whether it is the Will of God to heal all the time...or not

1- First, do not look to healing Scriptures alone, but look both to the promises of Healing, as well as to those times when God did NOT heal; thus, you will have a balance in your own situation....admitting to the obvious fact that God did not always heal in the Scriptures is not a "lack of faith" as some claim...such is not a "lack" of anything; it's honesty...looking at more than an Isaiah 53:5 to get your quick fix miracle will be, in the long run, more beneficial to your faith than listening to those voices which would have you look to nothing BUT a quick-fix miracle.

Our God is not a God who is forced to do our bidding because of some apparent "faith".....

2- Secondly, to determine whether or not God heals all the time, don;'t look ONLY to those Scriptures where people WERE healed, but look to those places where people were sick and were NOT healed....such as in the case of Timothy....again, many would say, "We're not to look to man's example"....and again I answer that we are repeatedly told to do so; such an examination into the lives of the Saints allows us a peek into the dealings of God with His Apostles and Early Church Brethren....If Paul the Apostle repeatedly said, "Follow my example", then I'm simply going to do it..regardless of any contrary arguments.

Now, since we are told to follow his example, then it must be true that we are not to go about promising healing to everyone who is sick, based on "their faith"....why? Paul did no such thing, not once, anywhere in the Word, and we see this example, which we are to follow, in the case of Timothy's sickness (which can be rendered a liver problem, as part 1 shows clearly).

3- Finally, we are to BELIEVE that God has power over all flesh, but we are to also believe that he will do what HE wants with that power.

We see this in the case of Jesus' prayer:

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Jesus, the Word made flesh, did not assume anything to be the Will of the Father....He first WENT TO the Father in prayer, to find out what the Father's Will was...and when he was through praying, He didn't have to wonder or assume anything; He knew, and based on what he knew...He DID.

So, it's as easy as that.

Do not assume the Will of God; find it in prayer.

P-R-A-Y.

Don't allow formulas and 3-setp methods to take the place of Prayer.

God is God.

He is Provindential.

Take time to pray.

It's easy to assume and to go about saying, "Believe! Have FaitH!"

because praye ris a task...a wrestling with God, we now have the "easy way" to get healing, blessing, finances....

You can assume and then apply your magical formula...and fail over and over again....

Or....

You can take time to wrestle, and come out with a limp and walk differently.

The choice is your's.

You can trust that the Provindence of God will come to you in prayer, dilligent prayer.....or you can take the 3-steps to "get whatever you want" way.

God......Be my Providence today.

I
iansmith Feb 23, 2007

Ben, is that you?

H
hmmhmm Feb 23, 2007


iansmith wrote:
Ben, is that you?


:-D

sermonindex Feb 23, 2007

we know that Jesus Christ did not heal "all".
OBJECTION! (Your Honour ;-) !)
Some [b]misguided sheep[/b] will blanket such a verse saying, "all means all".
'misguided sheep'???? :-o I object AGAIN! :-(
Hence, I ask the question:

Do you mean to say that Paul, Timothy and the entire NT Early Church “had no faith” to seek the Lord for healing?
But is this the [i]correct[/i] question to be asking, I ask?
Misguided brethren say this in order to promote a false method of faith.
What does this mean please, 'in order to promote a false methoed of faith'? Sounds like gobbledegook to me! :-(

So, in conclusion:
... God is Provindential, that he alone decrees a thing and that he alone causes it to come to pass....all Faith, healing, miracles, etc etc, if genuine, were already decreed by God before the foundations of the world; hence, that which has bene previously decreed by the Providence of God will always come to pass..that which has not, will not come to pass, regardless of confession, naming/claiming etc etc.
This paragraph is a gross oversimplification of ....... couldn't be Calvinism could it?.... No! Of course not! ;-) .... but it sure sounds like he's used this topic as an excuse to peddle his (or her) unrefined (mis?)understanding of the issues surrounding 'healing'.... :-?
we see that the "anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses" when Moses questioned God on His Creative Ability...
Again, the writer's interpretation of Moses' mistake.... I put it to you, Moses was thinking he had to do it all on his own, and he knew he wasn't equal to the task. God was angry more because Moses was tempted to resort to his own human abilities (inabilities in this case), rather than [i]expecting[/i] God to put the words in his mouth (as he later states in Deuteronomy for all people); rather than [i]expecting[/i] God to [i]complete[/i] him (that is, to perfect him... to make up what he, Moses, was lacking.

Our God is not a God who is forced to do our bidding because of some apparent "faith".....
Sorry to do so much nit-picking here, but God IS forced to do our bidding IF we are praying in line with [u]His will[/u].

The '"faith"' to which the writer refers is nothing more than a [i]human's[/i] wish, or, [i]imagination[/i] of what is pleasing to God - note 'imagination' in the Old Testament is translated 'stubbornness'.... [i]Interesting![/i] Or, (according certain false doctrine), more of a cult activity which is expected of members.... but really has absolutely [i]nothing[/i] to do with actually communicating with God and learning what His will might be, in order to pray according to it.

Now, since we are told to follow his example, then it must be true that we are not to go about promising healing to everyone who is sick, based on "their faith"....
This is an excellent point, but, if you read the New Testament looking for the times Jesus healed ALL (which I KNOW He did), you will find that it was NOT always based on '"their faith"'. To put forward a [i]false[/i] statement in support of his (or her) argument, is just a little dishonest.

Do not assume the Will of God; find it in prayer.

P-R-A-Y.

I agree completely with this, from (my) experience - so far.

There is much information about another's life which one does not know - which even they may have forgotten, or the significance of what they remember, they don't understand. Some healing is for the future, in that person's experience, but I agree that the Lord would have us as whole as possible, if we will receive it.

One thing I agree also, from another thread, more a default point than was stated, is that some 'healing' is to do with sin being dealt with, rather than the fall.

God ALWAYS wants to deal with the effects of sin.

sermonindex Feb 23, 2007

Scripture does not indicate, nor does it teach, that all will be healed physically if they only have faith that it will happen. Not to mention that life experience shows that this is not true as well.

Two strikes... you're out.

And I ask the same question Ian asked... Ben?? How many different names do you have on this forum?? LOL

Krispy

G
Goldminer Feb 23, 2007

I felt there was a lot of disconnected items in this starting thread. It hopped around a lot with unrelated scripture.

First of all Moses,

[color=6600CC]Exd 4:10 ¶ And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I [am] not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I [am] slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. [/color]

slow of speech in the Strongs reads:

1) heavy, great

a) heavy

b) massive, abundant, numerous

c) heavy, dull

d) hard, difficult, burdensome

e) very oppressive, numerous, rich

1) (peh) mouth

a) mouth (of man)

b) mouth (as organ of speech)

c) mouth (of animals)

d) mouth, opening, orifice (of a well, river, etc)

e) extremity, end

2) (pim) a weight equal to one third of a shekel, occurs only in 1 Sa. 13:21

1) tongue

a) tongue (of men)

1) tongue (literal)

2) tongue (organ of speech)

b) language

c) tongue (of animals)

d) tongue (of fire)

e) wedge, bay of sea (tongue-shaped)


[color=0000FF]While it is clear that he is speaking about his tongue he says he lacks eloquence.[/color]

eloquence in the Strongs:

1) speech, word, speaking, thing

a) speech

b) saying, utterance

c) word, words

d) business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

1) to speak, declare, converse, command, promise, warn, threaten, sing

a) (Qal) to speak

b) (Niphal) to speak with one another, talk

c) (Piel)

1) to speak

2) to promise

d) (Pual) to be spoken

e) (Hithpael) to speak


f) (Hiphil) to lead away, put to flight


I do not read this a being a speach impediment, or an infirmity, but a lack of eloquence. God took a cocky over-excited young man who learned he was the deliverer to the back side of the desert and removed all the learning of Egypt so He could put His words in his mouth. Moses lacked the natural words to go stand in front of Pharoah, but he didn't realize God was able to give grace for all this. God gave him Aaron because of his fear of speaking.

How do I know? I have lived it. Before I got saved I blabbed about everything and after getting saved and filled with the Holy Spirit I would sit with people and have nothing to say. How do you go from cussing and fussing to a complete different dialect? One step at a time. A time of quiet on the back side of obscurity until you yield your mouth to God.


Now with regards to healing for everybody. I believe the provision for healing is available to everybody, just as I said in the healing thread.

[color=990033]Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [/color]


That word saved in the Strongs means:

sozo {sode'-zo}
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

a) one (from injury or peril)


1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health

1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue

b) to save in the technical biblical sense

1) negatively

a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment

b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

This tells us what the will of God is and the already given provision for believers. Shall be saved "sozo".

Now by using the formula in the starting post of this thread we would also have to say if it be your will God save me. However we all know it is not God will that any should perish:

[color=6600CC]2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/color]

So why do we question God's will to heal? Because our experience has to have an answer. Now they are many.

As one person pointed out their handicapped friend was satified with being who he was and wanted to stay that way.

God told Paul His grace was sufficient because it kept him from being swelled up because of revelations.

Many sleep or are sick because the don't discern the body of Christ.

Honor you father and mother that you might live long, some don't, even though they are believers.

Some don't bother to call for the elders or ask for healing because they don't believe it is a provision for them.

There are probably miriads of reasons but it doesn't change the provision of sozo. Thank God.


Most of us have children. Which one of us would not seek to get our children well? Would we say it's good for you, it will teach you humility and dependence on God. Keep that cancer and brain damage it's God's will. No! we would go to the seek God, go to the doctor and the ends of the earth for a cure. If we love our kids we want them well.

I would ask every person who believes it is God's will for you to be sick, why do you go to the doctor for medicine and check-ups? Wouldn't it be more in line with what you believe to just stay sick. If the handicapped person is sick beyond his physical infirmity doesn't he go and get cured by the medical community? Sure, I bet even Joni does.

Most people want healed, we want our children healed. Since God has made provision bundled up in our salvation, body, soul, & spirit, mind, will and emotions (sozo). Why shouldn't we reach out and take it even as we do salvation of our souls?

If for some reason healing doesn't come we need to check our hearts. If we find no fault we can then ask God again, until He tells us He wants to leave us that way. Paul was clear that God told him His grace was sufficient. Do we have a sure word from God He wants us that way? Well if not, call for the elders and have them anoint you with oil. Ask for the hands of those who believe in healing to be laid on you. Don't stop asking until your sure you are supposed to keep what you have.

Again, it isn't over until it's over. There are people who we all know that sought healing and are not healed. That doesn't mean they will never be healed. Maybe someone like John G. Lake just wasn't in their vicinity. After all sick folks sought out Jesus. Some even used amazing pictures, like the dog under the table, to secure healing for thier children. Even Jesus marveled.

I believe we will see these types of gifts raised up by God again. Why? Because we will need it. Right now we have doctors, we really don't need miraculous healing. However in Africa and other nations with little or no medical provision they are seeing the deaf and blind healed. Why? They have no other option.

Now by way of ending this very long thing. Let's take a look at the avian flu. The authorities say this threatens to wipe out huge populations of the world. Let's say that it comes to the good Ol' USA. There is no known cure. Our entire city gets covered with it. Will we sit back and say it must be God's will to wipe out all the believers in that city? No, we will seek God for His miraculous intervention, because we would have no where else to go. God's glory will be manifest as His healed, whole ones go around and pray for the sick of city, God raising them up and them crying out " what must I do to be saved?". These signs will follow those who believe they will follow.

P
Provost Feb 23, 2007

A blanket statement here would actually be allowed while speaking of God's will on healing according to soley His Word. You brought up a sujective instance again and we as Christians cannot be moved by subjective instances. WE can only be moved by Gods Word. If I were to be healed of diabetes tomorrow that would not make Jesus the divine Healer just as if I were never healed and died from diabetes that would not make Jesus any less of a healer. Jesus is the Divine Healer b/c the Bible revealed Him as so. The blanket can now be laid over the question if it is God's will to heal. Again "heaven is the unhindered manifestation of God's Will"--Andrew Murray
If it is not God's perfect will to heal at all times then there will be sickness in heaven.
Right now what is making me sicker than my diabetes is that there are brother fighting over ths. Gods perfect will is healing. Conversation should be ended. Fallen world yes...Gods will for us...Healing...curse yes...God's will Healing... Saying that God's will is not to heal the creation He is madly in love with with sick.
This is not a faith issue here...this is the issue of people Mocking God saying that there subjective experiences go against Gods love and desire for us to be the way we were created to be.

sermonindex Feb 23, 2007

This who topic just gets more and more bizarre and off track as it goes on...

This is what happens when people abandon scripture and begin to rely on their opinions.

Krispy

P
Provost Feb 23, 2007

I know people abandon Scripture and God's revelation through Jesus, bring in subjective experiences and all of a sudden God's perfect will is not to heal

sermonindex Feb 23, 2007

I know people abandon Scripture and God's revelation through Jesus, bring in subjective experiences and all of a sudden God's perfect will is not to heal

yea... whatever, dude.

Krispy

P
Provost Feb 23, 2007

Curse=not God's Perfect will
Sickness comes from curse
Heaven cure fully removed
Heaven we are reconciled into God's perfect will
Heaven no sickness
No sickness or always healing God's perfect will

Again not a faith issue but a being true to God's will as revealed in His Word issue.
Saying God's will is not to heal can only come from the subjective.
God will is to heal...His Word and revelations settle it. Allow healing to come in to your heart so the Holy Spirit can lift that burden and reveal that truth to you

sermonindex Feb 23, 2007


Curse=not God's Perfect will
Sickness comes from curse
Heaven cure fully removed
Heaven we are reconciled into God's perfect will
Heaven no sickness
No sickness/healing God's perfect will

I dont have an argument with that... never have. I agree with that.

Sometimes God's healing comes in the form of death for the believer. They receive their healing when they enter the gates of splender.

The thing people cant comprehend is that perhaps God allows sickness to afflict a believer in order to accomplish something bigger. And if that's His will... then it is His [b]perfect[/b] will because He can not do anything that isnt perfect.

Y'all are starting to say that sometimes God does things outside His perfect will... which implies that He does things with a will that is not perfect. Thats called thin ice.

I've discovered something... this thread is chuck full of people who just loooooove to argue for the sake of arguing. I havent sensed at all that anyone's motives are to bring encouragement or understanding to anyone else. Just argue and score points. I'd be lying if I said I havent participated, because to some extent... I have.

I say this because my words have been twisted and manipulated to make it sound like I'm saying something that I am not. Made to look like I dont believe things that I do believe... and that I believe things that i dont believe.

But ya know... thats how deception works. A little truth here, a little twist here, a little out of context over there. The exegesis on this thread is horrendous. The premise of this thread is flawed. The arguments are not coming from scripture.

To put it bluntly... this is a hellish thread.

And before someone says I'm mad... I'm not mad at all. Just offering my observation.

Krispy

P
Provost Feb 23, 2007

You're right about the thin ice. so let a brother clarify
Will has two meanings (both perfect)
What God Does and what God wants for us
God doesn't want us to be sick
God (obviously) allows sicknes but that is not what He wants for us is all I am trying to say

P.S - Krispy I think we'd get along...agrue...yes...get along...for sure peace brother

sermonindex Feb 23, 2007

Provost... I agree with your last post.

Let's clarify. What Ben seems to be promoting is the doctrine that God will heal anyone who has the faith that God will heal them. THAT is what I am coming against. Not what you're saying.

Fact is... God will [b]not[/b] heal all that have faith that He will heal them. Sometimes God has a bigger picture in mind of what He is trying to accomplish by allowing someone to have an illness. Case in point: Joni.

Does God heal today? Absolutely. Does He heal everyone who comes to Him for healing? Absolutely not.

This is what Benny Hinn claims. Yet, Benny Hinn has yet (after several decades of "ministry") been able to produce even one single medically validated healing thru his ministry.

I've known believers who have been healed of cancer. Some it just seemed to disappear... others it happened thru medical help. Either way, it's a healing that God did.

However, I've know believers who had [b]great[/b] faith in God... more so than me, and they believed they would be healed... and they died. They received their healing in heaven.

I've know children who were too young to even understand faith in God who got cancer, or had some birth deformity... and they died.

Now how do we explain this? Did God make them die? No... the curse did. This was not God's original intent. I agree 100% w/that.

But we're not talking about original intent right now. Thats semantics. Ben is saying that God wants to heal all believers, [b]and if we are not healed it is because we lack faith[/b]. This is hogwash.

It's dung, to use a KJV term.

God is operating under the conditions that we, thru Adam, have set for ourselves. That is... a curse. So when God allows a believer to be ill, He has a plan, and under the conditions in which He has limited Himself to (notice I said "He limited Himself to"... that's important to note)... it is a "perfect" plan.

God knows all things, correct? While I am not a hardline Calvinist, there is something to "predestination". Thats something else that people are not paying any attention to in this discussion.

God has set my time of death, and I needn't concern myself about it. My faith teaches me that I am as safe on the battlefield as I am in my own bed.

Since God has set my time of death, if I become sick with cancer and die by this time next year... then thats the way it is. And it didnt surprise Him. And I would say that it was His perfect plan for me.

And tho I dont understand it all... I will by and by.

There... now I'll let you vultures pick apart everything I just wrote. :-)

Krispy

P
Provost Feb 23, 2007

I dig and agree with what you said. One thing that I would point out for both of us (any others with disease) is that we do need to go up for prayer for our healing on a regular basis. We are commanded to do so. I do not go up every week but I do try to at least one prayer meeting a month, because I want to be (and learn how to be) obedient.

H
hmmhmm Feb 23, 2007

i searched the scriptures, maybe i missed a verse...but i cant find one single vers e that clearly says - Gods will is to heal ALL people...i find God has a lot of things that we can be absolutely sure is his will. maybe healing is...but its not in the bible...God heals people in the bible...he heals people today...but we cant SAY it is his will to heal all people... here are some of them, now if i missed a verse please tell me. God Bless

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Romans 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

romans 8:27 And he that searched the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Romans 15:32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.


1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,


Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.


1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:


1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.


2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,


Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

1 Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1 Peter 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Psalm 138:1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.


G
Goldminer Feb 23, 2007

You see the problem isn't that there isn't scripture to back up that he didn't heal all. There is scripture to support He did heal all just like He saved all.

[color=3300CC]1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [/color]


[color=6600CC]Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [/color]

The problem is that we don't really understand that He was slain from the foundation of world. He purchased salvation and healing for all, we just don't all appropriate it.

Salvation is laid out on a big platter and all who will may come and healing is on that same platter. We just don't all really understand the provision secured for us. We need to.

H
hmmhmm Feb 23, 2007

but to me that sounds like if you get sick then you cant be sure you are saved...

P
Provost Feb 23, 2007


hmmhmm wrote:
but to me that sounds like if you get sick then you cant be sure you are saved...

Difference in unbelief
The unbelief that hinders salvation is a rebelious, defiant unbelief
Sickness a doubt not rebelious defiance, but a doubt.
This would be the defense that goldminer and others could use...

H
hmmhmm Feb 23, 2007

intresting, but it could also apply to the sickness of our soul, our sinsick soul and that was healed on the cross, it was that what his stripes healed ?


Isa 53:4-9

In these verses we have,

I. A further account of the sufferings of Christ. Much was said before, but more is said here, of the very low condition to which he abased and humbled himself, to which he became obedient even to the death of the cross. 1. He had griefs and sorrows; being acquainted with them, he kept up the acquaintance, and did not grow shy, no, not of such melancholy acquaintance. Were griefs and sorrows allotted him? He bore them, and blamed not his lot; he carried them, and did neither shrink from them, nor sink under them. The load was heavy and the way long, and yet he did not tire, but persevered to the end, till he said, It is finished. 2. He had blows and bruises; he was stricken, smitten, and afflicted. His sorrows bruised him; he felt pain and smart from them; they touched him in the most tender part, especially when God was dishonoured, and when he forsook him upon the cross. All along he was smitten with the tongue, when he was cavilled at and contradicted, put under the worst of characters, and had all manner of evil said against him. At last he was smitten with the hand, with blow after blow. 3. He had wounds and stripes. He was scourged, not under the merciful restriction of the Jewish law, which allowed not above forty stripes to be given to the worst of male factors, but according to the usage of the Romans. And his scourging, doubtless, was the more severe because Pilate intended it as an equivalent for his crucifixion, and yet it proved a preface to it. He was wounded in his hands, and feet, and side. Though it was so ordered that not a bone of him should be broken, yet he had scarcely in any part a whole skin (how fond soever we are to sleep in one, even when we are called out to suffer for him), but from the crown of his head, which was crowned with thorns, to the soles of his feet, which were nailed to the cross, nothing appeared but wounds and bruises. 4. He was wronged and abused (v. 7): He was oppressed, injuriously treated and hardly dealt with. That was laid to his charge which he was perfectly innocent of, that laid upon him which he did not deserve, and in both he was oppressed and injured. He was afflicted both in mind and body; being oppressed, he laid it to heart, and, though, he was patient, was not stupid under it, but mingled his tears with those of the oppressed, that have no comforter, because on the side of the oppressors there is power, Eccl. 4:1. Oppression is a sore affliction; it has made many a wise man mad (Eccl. 7:7); but our Lord Jesus, though, when he was oppressed, he was afflicted, kept possession of his own soul. 5. he was judged and imprisoned, as is implied in his being taken from prison and judgment, v. 8. God having made him sin for us, he was proceeded against as a malefactor; he was apprehended and taken into custody, and made a prisoner; he was judge, accused, tried, and condemned, according to the usual forms of law: God filed a process against him, judged him in pursuance of that process, and confined him in the prison of the grave, at the door of which a stone was rolled and sealed. 6. He was cut off by an untimely death from the land of the living, though he lived a most useful life, did so many good works, and they were all such that one would be apt to think it was for some of them that they stoned him. He was stricken to death, to the grave which he made with the wicked (for he was crucified between two thieves, as if he had been the worst of the three) and yet with the rich, for he was buried in a sepulchre that belonged to Joseph, an honourable counsellor. Though he died with the wicked, and according to the common course of dealing with criminals should have been buried with them in the place where he was crucified, yet God here foretold, and Providence so ordered it, that he should make his grave with the innocent, with the rich, as a mark of distinction put between him and those that really deserved to die, even in his sufferings.

II. A full account of the meaning of his sufferings. It was a very great mystery that so excellent a person should suffer such hard things; and it is natural to ask with amazement, "How came it about? What evil had he done?’’ His enemies indeed looked upon him as suffering justly for his crimes; and, though they could lay nothing to his charge, they esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted, v. 4. Because they hated him, and persecuted him, they thought that God did, that he was his enemy and fought against him; and therefore they were the more enraged against him, saying, God has forsaken him; persecute and take him, Ps. 71:11. Those that are justly smitten are smitten of God, for by him princes decree justice; and so they looked upon him to be smitten, justly put to death as a blasphemer, a deceiver, and an enemy to Caesar. Those that saw him hanging on the cross enquired not into the merits of his cause, but took it for granted that he was guilty of every thing laid to his charge and that therefore vengeance suffered him not to live. Thus Job’s friends esteemed him smitten of God, because there was something uncommon in his sufferings. It is true he was smitten of God, v. 10 (or, as some read it, he was God’s smitten and afflicted, the Son of God, though smitten and afflicted), but not in the sense in which they meant it; for, though he suffered all these things,

1. He never did any thing in the least to deserve this hard usage. Whereas he was charged with perverting the nation, and sowing sedition, it was utterly false; he had done no violence, but went about doing good. And, whereas he was called that deceiver, he never deserved that character; for there was no deceit in his mouth (v. 9), to which the apostle refers, 1 Pt. 2:22. He did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. He never offended either in word or deed, nor could any of his enemies take up that challenge of his, Which of you convinceth me of sin? The judge that condemned owned he found no fault in him, and the centurion that executed him professed that certainly he was a righteous man.

2. He conducted himself under his sufferings so as to make it appear that he did not suffer as an evil-doer; for, though he was oppressed and afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth (v. 7), no, not so much as to plead his own innocency, but freely offered himself to suffer and die for us, and objected nothing against it. This takes away the scandal of the cross, that he voluntarily submitted to it, for great and holy ends. By his wisdom he could have evaded the sentence, and by his power have resisted the execution; but thus it was written, and thus it behoved him to suffer. This commandment he received from his Father, and therefore he was led as a lamb to the slaughter, without any difficulty or reluctance (he is the Lamb of God); and as a sheep is dumb before the shearers, nay, before the butchers, so he opened not his mouth, which denotes not only his exemplary patience under affliction (Ps. 39:9), and his meekness under reproach (Ps. 38:13), but his cheerful compliance with his Father’s will. Not my will, but thine be done. Lo, I come. By this will we are sanctified, his making his own soul, his own life, an offering for our sin.

3. It was for our good, and in our stead, that Jesus Christ suffered. This is asserted here plainly and fully, and in a very great variety of emphatical expressions.

(1.) It is certain that we are all guilty before God. We have all sinned, and have come short of the glory of God (v. 6): All we like sheep have gone astray, one as well as another. The whole race of mankind lies under the stain of original corruption, and every particular person stands charged with many actual transgressions. We have all gone astray from God our rightful owner, alienated ourselves from him, from the ends he designed us to move towards and the way he appointed us to move in. We have gone astray like sheep, which are apt to wander, and are unapt, when they have gone astray, to find the way home again. That is our true character; we are bent to backslide from God, but altogether unable of ourselves to return to him. This is mentioned not only as our infelicity (that we go astray from the green pastures and expose ourselves to the beasts of prey), but as our iniquity. We affront God in going astray from him, for we turn aside every one to his own way, and thereby set up ourselves, and our own will, in competition with God and his will, which is the malignity of sin. Instead of walking obediently in God’s way, we have turned wilfully and stubbornly to our own way, the way of our own heart, the way that our own corrupt appetites and passions lead us to. We have set up for ourselves, to be our own masters, our own carvers, to do what we will and have what we will. Some think it intimates our own evil way, in distinction from the evil way of others. Sinners have their own iniquity, their beloved sin, which does most easily beset them, their own evil way, that they are particularly fond of and bless themselves in.

(2.) Our sins are our sorrows and our griefs (v. 4), or, as it may be read, our sicknesses and our wounds: the Septuagint reads it, our sins; and so the apostle, 1 Pt. 2:24. Our original corruptions are the sickness and disease of the soul, an habitual indisposition; our actual transgressions are the wounds of the soul, which put conscience to pain, if it be not seared and senseless. Or our sins are called our griefs and sorrows because all our griefs and sorrows are owing to our sins and our sins deserve all our griefs and sorrows, even those that are most extreme and everlasting.

(3.) Our Lord Jesus was appointed and did undertake to make satisfaction for our sins and so to save us from the penal consequences of them. [1.] He was appointed to do it, by the will of his Father; for the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. God chose him to be the Saviour of poor sinners and would have him to save them in this way, by bearing their sins and the punishment of them; not the idem—the same that we should have suffered, but the tantundem—that which was more than equivalent for the maintaining of the honour of the holiness and justice of God in the government of the world. Observe here, First, In what way we are saved from the ruin to which by sin we had become liable—by laying our sins on Christ, as the sins of the offerer were laid upon the sacrifice and those of all Israel upon the head of the scape-goat. Our sins were made to meet upon him (so the margin reads it); the sins of all that he was to save, from every place and every age, met upon him, and he was met with for them. They were made to fall upon him (so some read it) as those rushed upon him that came with swords and staves to take him. The laying of our sins upon Christ implies the taking of them off from us; we shall not fall under the curse of the law if we submit to the grace of the gospel. They were laid upon Christ when he was made sin (that is, a sin-offering) for us, and redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us; thus he put himself into a capacity to make those easy that come to him heavily laden under the burden of sin. See Ps. 40:6–12. Secondly, By whom this was appointed. It was the Lord that laid our iniquities on Christ; he contrived this way of reconciliation and salvation, and he accepted of the vicarious satisfaction Christ was to make. Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. None but God had power to lay our sins upon Christ, both because the sin was committed against him and to him the satisfaction was to be made, and because Christ, on whom the iniquity was to be laid, was his own Son, the Son of his love, and his holy child Jesus, who himself knew no sin. Thirdly, For whom this atonement was to be made. It was the iniquity of us all that was laid on Christ; for in Christ there is a sufficiency of merit for the salvation of all, and a serious offer made of that salvation to all, which excludes none that do not exclude themselves. It intimates that this is the one only way of salvation. All that are justified are justified by having their sins laid on Jesus Christ, and, though they were ever so many, he is able to bear the weight of them all. [2.] He undertook to do it. God laid upon him our iniquity; but did he consent to it? Yes, he did; for some think that the true reading of the next words (v. 7) is, It was exacted, and he answered; divine justice demanded satisfaction for our sins, and he engaged to make the satisfaction. He became our surety, not as originally bound with us, but as bail to the action: "Upon me be the curse, my Father.’’ And therefore, when he was seized, he stipulated with those into whose hands he surrendered himself that that should be his disciples’ discharge: If you seek me, let these go their way, Jn. 18:8. By his own voluntary undertaking he made himself responsible for our debt, and it is well for us that he was responsible. Thus he restored that which he took not away.

(4.) Having undertaken our debt, he underwent the penalty. Solomon says: He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it. Christ, being surety for us, did smart for it. [1.] He bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, v. 4. He not only submitted to the common infirmities of human nature, and the common calamities of human life, which sin had introduced, but he underwent the extremities of grief, when he said, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful. He made the sorrows of this present time heavy to himself, that he might make them light and easy for us. Sin is the wormwood and the fall in the affliction and the misery. Christ bore our sins, and so bore our griefs, bore them off us, that we should never be pressed above measure. This is quoted (Mt. 8:17) with application to the compassion Christ had for the sick that came to him to be cured and the power he put forth to cure them. [2.] He did this by suffering for our sins (v. 5): He was wounded for our transgressions, to make atonement for them and to purchase for us the pardon of them. Our sins were the thorns in his head, the nails in his hands and feet, the spear in his side. Wounds and bruises were the consequences of sin, what we deserved and what we had brought upon ourselves, ch. 1:6. That these wounds and bruises, though they are painful, may not be mortal, Christ was wounded for our transgressions, was tormented or pained (the word is used for the pains of a woman in travail) for our revolts and rebellions. He was bruised, or crushed, for our iniquities; they were the procuring cause of his death. To the same purport is v. 8, for the transgression of my people was he smitten, the stroke was upon him that should have been upon us; and so some read it, He was cut off for the iniquity of my people, unto whom the stroke belonged, or was due. He was delivered to death for our offences, Rom. 4:25. Hence it is said to be according to the scriptures, according to this scripture, that Christ died for our sins, 1 Co. 15:3. Some read this, by the transgressions of my people; that is, by the wicked hands of the Jews, who were, in profession, God’s people, he was stricken, was crucified and slain, Acts 2:23. But, doubtless, we are to take it in the former sense, which is abundantly confirmed by the angel’s prediction of the Messiah’s undertaking, solemnly delivered to Daniel, that he shall finish transgression, make an end of sin, and make reconciliation for iniquity, Dan. 9:24.

(5.) The consequence of this to us is our peace and healing, v. 5. [1.] Hereby we have peace: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; he, by submitting to these chastisements, slew the enmity, and settled an amity, between God and man; he made peace by the blood of his cross. Whereas by sin we had become odious to God’s holiness and obnoxious to his justice, through Christ God is reconciled to us, and not only forgives our sins and saves us from ruin, but takes us into friendship and fellowship with himself, and thereby peace (that is, all good) comes unto us, Col. 1:20. He is our peace, Eph. 2:14. Christ was in pain that we might be at ease; he gave satisfaction to the justice of God that we might have satisfaction in our own minds, might be of good cheer, knowing that through him our sins are forgiven us. [2.] Hereby we have healing; for by his stripes we are healed. Sin is not only a crime, for which we were condemned to die and which Christ purchased for us the pardon of, but it is a disease, which tends directly to the death of our souls and which Christ provided for the cure of. By his stripes (that is, the sufferings he underwent) he purchased for us the Spirit and grace of God to mortify our corruptions, which are the distempers of our souls, and to put our souls in a good state of health, that they may be fit to serve God and prepared to enjoy him. And by the doctrine of Christ’s cross, and the powerful arguments it furnishes us with against sin, the dominion of sin is broken in us and we are fortified against that which feeds the disease.

(6.) The consequence of this to Christ was his resurrection and advancement to perpetual honour. This makes the offence of the cross perfectly to cease; he yielded himself to die as a sacrifice, as a lamb, and, to make it evident that the sacrifice he offered of himself was accepted, we are told here, v. 8, [1.] That he was discharged: He was taken from prison and from judgment; whereas he was imprisoned in the grave under a judicial process, lay there under an arrest for our debt, and judgment seemed to be given against him, he was by an express order from heaven taken out of the prison of the grave, an angel was sent on purpose to roll away the stone and set him at liberty, by which the judgment given against him was reversed and taken off; this redounds not only to his honour, but to our comfort; for, being delivered for our offences, he was raised again for our justification. That discharge of the bail amounted to a release of the debt. [2.] That he was preferred: Who shall declare his generation? his age, or continuance (so the word signifies), the time of his life? He rose to die no more; death had no more dominion over him. He that was dead is alive, and lives for evermore; and who can describe that immortality to which he rose, or number the years and ages of it? And he is advanced to this eternal life because for the transgression of his people he became obedient to death. We may take it as denoting the time of his usefulness, as David is said to serve his generation, and so to answer the end of living. Who can declare how great a blessing Christ by his death and resurrection will be to the world? Some by his generation understand his spiritual seed: Who can count the vast numbers of converts that shall by the gospel be begotten to him, like the dew of the morning?

When thus exalted he shall live to see

A numberless believing progeny

Of his adopted sons; the godlike race

Exceed the stars that heav’n’s high arches grace.

—Sir R. Blackmore

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