True Conversion, Why Repent?

I believe a Christian will come to Jesus to be freed from sin because he will hear the Spirit's call to repentance. A related question that is rarely asked is what will it cost me to follow Jesus? The answer is absolutely everything. It will cost my darling sins, my hidden pride, time, money, family, future.

What it does it merit me to lay these things down? Absolutely nothing but I do it because I've decided to follow Jesus and I'm not turning back.

Just a couple of thoughts.

but true conversion is of the heart, when God changes not only what you do, but why you do it. And so a sinner is not converted until not only what he does is changed, but why he does it is changed. And why he does what he does is no longer for himself, but for God and for others.

Amen

Since the whole point about salvation is where one spends eternity, how can one not start with the heaven or hell question?

It's not a matter of emotionalism, although it is often used in that manner. It is a fact that we all must deal with.

We are either for Jesus, or against Him, if only by default because we are not for Him. Genuine wickedness aside, consider how much God has done to get our attention on one simple matter - will we trust Him, or not? Do we believe Him or not?

The remainder of Christianity is how to live the Christian life by walking in Chirst's footsteps. It is an impossible matter, of course, but we have to try, and keep on trying, no matter how often we fail.

As for repentance, when I say my morning prayers, and take communion, how can I not repent? Is there one day in which I have not done something that I need to stop, apologize for, and do a complete 180 degree turnaround on?

Does anyone not need to repent daily? Does anyone not need to repent several times a day?

The whole point of living with the Jesus inside of you, and the Holy Spirit to teach and comfort you is that it becomes possible, in tiny bits and peices, to be changed. Not to change in our own strength, because no human is that strong. The Holy Spirit wants to change me. I just want to cooperate to the best of my ability so I can progress.

Blessings,

I do understand what your are trying to say, there is only one way, forsake all and follow me. However, the problem is we don't have laborers that all know the same thing to preach, so we wouldn't get anyone saved if it required just one angle.

[color=6600CC]Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [/color]

Charles Finney, wouldn't bring you through to salvation until you knew what it would cost you. No cheap salvation there. The people would be squalling and groaning and he would say you aren't ready. Then he would continue to tell them the cost, everything. It is said the the majority of folks saved in his meetings stayed that way for life. They knew the cost before they committed.

The probem is we aren't all Finney. We must present the word to them and bring them in the best we can and allow God to purify their motives. Every preacher should make it known you aren't coming to Jesus as a fire escape or to get your boo boo fixed, but to lay down your life. After that He will take care of everything you commit to Him. This would stop of lot of the false conversions.

The probem is we aren't all Finney.

Good point, Goldminer! In fact, as soon as we try to copy Finney, or someone else, we cease being authentic to the way God is shaping us - that is, our true self. Sinners can sniff that a mile away.

Copying is a natural bent in us all – and why not! We do admire our heroes of the gospel and realize how successful they were. But, replicas just don’t work the same way. Actually, if we are going to copy any human, it should be the apostle Paul – who remained true himself. Studying the way he lived would be most helpful – the way he lived out his entire life. It’s tempting to focus on certain ways that he handled certain sinners, and then make THAT our model. It won’t work! Doing so is also an evidence that we are not waiting on the Spirit, rather, we are counting on OUR methods and efforts to change others.

We can’t change anyone! That is a humbling reality!

Don't you think that we have a tendency to fit people, including God’s work into a box that makes sense to us and fits in with our life-views? But people are all so different from one another – including their motives. So, to shape an evangelical message around what we believe are man’s motives is very risky. We'll likely miss the target by a long shot.

The prodigal son had one motive: survival, and he was willing to do whatever it took to get some food in his stomach. The motive behind his choice to go home was not to glorify his Father. Of course that would have been an outcome – especially after the way he was treated by his Father – like a King’s son!

We must present the word to them and bring them in the best we can and allow God to purify their motives.

“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea….. Acts 1:8

Being witnesses is the outcome of our own relationship with God. It WILL show if it is there, and THAT is what others see. That is what gives us any authority: Christ's Spirit in us. If this is not evident through our mannerism, or words, our countenance, our way of relating to people, etc, then our most eloquent, persuasive preaching holds absolutely no authority.

Diane

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Since the whole point about salvation is where one spends eternity, how can one not start with the heaven ot hell question?

While I think I see your point, it is fundamentally flawed. The "heaven and hell question" comes after the "sin question", and not before. Hell needs to be understood, in the heart and mind of the sinner, as the place that he deserves to go, and if there was no hell, then God could not, in good conscience, rest until He had made one for them. The ultimate question is, does the sinner understand [b]his/her own personal sin[/b] in the context of how it affects a God, that demonstrates His love for them, in that He laid down His life for them? Does their heart break as they consider their sin, as being against Him, and Him alone?

The repentant sinner will beg to go to hell, and be offended at the notion that God could possibly allow them into heaven. The converted believer will rejoice in the God that sent His Son to die for Him, knowing the shame that is attached to the realisation of their own "poverty of spirit", all the while knowing that this is the criteria of ownership of the "kingdom of heaven". In other words, they cannot even take comfort in the injustice of having someone die for them, because they know that they need it to survive.

If you claim to be a soul winner, and you have neither tasted this kind of conversion in your own life, nor the lives of the ones that you have led to Christ, then may I say that I feel sorry for you, right after I say "Shame on you!!!"

A good friend of mine has often expressed a desire to see a true conversion, after we became to the reality of "True and False Conversion". After nearly a year of faithfully preaching "sin, righteousness and judgement" for nearly a year on a street corner, he finally had his desire met, not once, but twice. The moral of the story is "do not despise the day of small beginnings". Be faithful, in the area of not casting your "pearls before swine". We do not need to water down the gospel to "get results". All we are called to do is preach the gospel, and "good news" only makes sense in the context of associated "bad news". Salivations are none of our business, we are simply called to point the way.

Simply put, Hell is merely the final destination for Satan and his angels.... but those who live their life after his pattern will inevitably be drawn there. Heaven on the other hand is the habitation of God, and those that abide in Him. The "Hell question" is one of "selfishness", while the "Heaven question" is one of "mercy being offered to the repentant".

I don't know if you have heard [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=282]Ten Shekels and a Shirt[/url] yet, but may I say if you haven't, then listen to it. If you have, then listen again.

I see that there is a current thread:[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15089&post_id=116652&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=116638&forum=35#116652]Compassion[/url] that I feel aught to be linked to this one. Some excellent scriptures are presented there, that I believe aught to be integrated with this thread topic.

How does compassion relate to conversion and repentance?

Edit:

If a person comes to Christ because of what they can get, they are just as selfish as a person who goes to a prostitute because of what they can get.

I have come to learn that it is not sinful to have desires - desires to have our needs met. It is not wrong to want food when you are hungry, or sleep when you are tired. But when we fail to trust God to provide -- now that is an entirely different mattter: We end up seeking the fulfilment of our needs apart from Christ - whether it be through prostitution or by seeking after success as a preacher.

I ask, is anyone really ABLE to give of themselves unless they FIRST have their needs met. Can one love without knowing (ie: KNOWING) that they are loved themselves?

Diane

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Since the whole point about salvation is where one spends eternity, how can one not start with the heaven ot hell question?

While I think I see your point, it is fundamentally flawed. The "heaven and hell question" comes after the "sin question", and not before.

Granted that we do not consider heaven or hell until after we are made aware that sin is the cause of death. It is that knowledge of death brings the need to consider one's final destination, not the sin that brings one to death.

The repentant sinner will beg to go to hell, and be offended at the notion that God could possibly allow them into heaven.

Any sane sinner, however repentant, will beg for forgiveness, and restoration into God's grace. Not being masochistic, I cannot imagine asking God to punish me for eternity when I know that He loves me, and that I can beg for forgiveness. I would be aware that I might not receive it, but I could never say to God, 'I know I am unworthy, please punish me for eternity.' I could only say, 'I know I am unworthy of your slightest glance, but please, Lord, please, have mercy on me.'

The converted believer will rejoice in the God that sent His Son to die for Him, knowing the shame that is attached to the realisation of their own "poverty of spirit", all the while knowing that this is the criteria of ownership of the "kingdom of heaven".

Certainly I rejoice that God, before the beginning of the world, forsaw the need for a 'Kinsman Redeemer'. God knew before Adam sinned that he would sin, and yet God loved us, His creation so much, that He planned a way around His own law of justice to offer us a way out, and gain for Himself a family.

Yes, there is shame that our sin was placed on the only Righteous One, and that He died to pay our sin debt. And in that, His righteousness becomes mine, and my shame is no more, for in God's eyes, I am perfect, washed clean by the Blood, able to be presented without spot or wrinkle to the Most High.

God in His love, forgets our sin as soon as we repent, and sees us to be as pure and perfect as Jesus. This does not mean that God does not know how much I need to learn and progress, but that in Jesus, I have become His child, and am loved by Him with an extravagence of love that wipes out even the memory of sin and shame.

As for the Kingdom of Heaven, that is a gift from God the Father to his Son, Jesus, to rule and reign as God's heir apparent. This gift was given in a promise that if Jesus would go to earth in a man's body, live perfectly as a man, and die for those who would come to believe on Him as the Risen Son of God. Then, having sowed Himself into the ground, He would reap a harvest of souls for the Father, and for Himself, to rule and reign over forever.

In other words, they cannot even take comfort in the injustice of having someone die for them, because they know that they need it to survive.

God gave Jesus, and Jesus gave Himself to act as our Kinsman Redeemer, dying for us that we might live. In my love and gratitude to God for this miracle, how can I not delight at what was done, even as I realize how much pain my sins caused my Saviour? Of course I need it to survive for eternity. God knew I needed such an unselfish, loving act to survive my inability to be sinless. And in my realization of God's love for me, I do indeed take comfort from the love that prompted Jesus's unjust death. No one can be glad for the injustice, and yes, we must have Jesus's sacrifice to live for eternity, but if God planned it, and is satisfied, then so am I.

If you claim to be a soul winner, and you have neither tasted this kind of conversion in your own life, nor the lives of the ones that you have led to Christ, then may I say that I feel sorry for you, right after I say "Shame on you!!!"

I have never claimed to have won even one soul for God. I talk to people about Jesus in the hope of sowing a seed, or watering seed already sown. No one has, to my knowledge, sat under my teaching, learning the first word about Jesus, come to faith in the Lord, or said the Sinner's prayer because of my actions.

Only God can win a soul. The Holy Spirit can touch the spirit of someone unsaved, creating a longing and curiousity about God. He can place people in the unsaved person's path, to witness for God, by their walk, or their words, or their passion for God. And the Holy Spirit must prepare all knowledge and readiness for a sinner to make a decision for or against Jesus. After the decision, the Holy Spirit again takes over, to teach and comfort the new convert through the journey to holiness, a lifelong quest to get nearer to the example of Jesus.

It is a rare thing for a single person, despite the help of the Holy Spirit, to have such influence over a sinner as to bring them, in the human portion of the process, to God. Perhaps a mother or father might manage it with their children, but unless they are on a desert island, I think that many people will be involved in each child's salvation.

Above all, the Holy Spirit is the person most involved. But for all of us that seek to help the Holy Spirit touch the souls of men, and bring them to God, we are blessed indeed to see a completed fruit of our labor.

I pray that all who witness for God will one day see the evidence of their labors in a perfected soul for God in Heaven.

Blessings,

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Granted that we do not consider heaven or hell until after we are made aware that sin is the cause of death. It is that knowledge of death brings the need to consider one's final destination, not the sin that brings one to death.

The [b]soul that sinneth, it shall die[/b]. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[b]Eze 18:20[/b]

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and [b]sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death[/b].
[b]Jas 1:14-15[/b]

The repentant sinner will beg to go to hell, and be offended at the notion that God could possibly allow them into heaven.

Any sane sinner, however repentant, will beg for forgiveness, and restoration into God's grace. Not being masochistic, I cannot imagine asking God to punish me for eternity when I know that He loves me, and that I can beg for forgiveness.

I think you misread what I wrote. I said "repentant [b]sinner[/b]" not "converted believer". I'm speaking of one who has become awakened to their sin, but has not yet placed his trust in Christ. My comments are observations that I have made, while open air evangelising. The difference between the heckler who repents, and the heckler who scorns, is the that scorner believes that he deserves mercy, while the repentant sinner understands that the mercy that he both craves and needs is totally undeserved. That one often needs to wrestle with his pride before he can accept God's free offer of mercy, because there is something in the heart of man that cannot tolerate being bankrupt.

Jesse's original article speaks of preaching to sinners, not to Christians. We must be careful of not putting our Christian mindset onto the sinner's mind. After all, we have the "mind of Christ", by which we can take for granted the simplicity of the gospel, but for the sinner, "the message of the cross is foolishness".

The point I'm making here is one of attitude, not rhetoric (ie, mere statements).

The converted believer will rejoice in the God that sent His Son to die for Him, knowing the shame that is attached to the realisation of their own "poverty of spirit", all the while knowing that this is the criteria of ownership of the "kingdom of heaven".

...As for the Kingdom of Heaven, that is a gift from God the Father to his Son, Jesus, to rule and reign as God's heir apparent. This gift was given in a promise that if Jesus would go to earth in a man's body, live perfectly as a man, and die for those who would come to believe on Him as the Risen Son of God. Then, having sowed Himself into the ground, He would reap a harvest of souls for the Father, and for Himself, to rule and reign over forever.

I think you missed my reference to Mat 5:3:
"Blessed [i]are[/i] the [b]poor in spirit[/b]: for [b]theirs is the kingdom of heaven[/b]."

In other words, they cannot even take comfort in the injustice of having someone die for them, because they know that they need it to survive.

...And in my realization of God's love for me, I do indeed take comfort from the love that prompted Jesus's unjust death. No one can be glad for the injustice, and yes, we must have Jesus's sacrifice to live for eternity, but if God planned it, and is satisfied, then so am I.

Again, I highlight the fact that I'm speaking of "repentant sinners". Unless you are not born again, then your statement is in effect like hearing someone saying that they just saw a ultrasound image of their unborn child, and that they now know the gender of their child, and responding, "What you didn't know the gender of your own child? Man, I knew my son was a boy 21 years ago."

John, in his first epistle spoke of "little children", "Young men" and "fathers" (1 John 2:12-14). The repentant sinner, is neither of these, because he doesn't even know the "forgiveness of sins"(v12) yet, for he is still unregenerate, while your statements have a vibe of one who knows "Him that is from the beginning" (v13a,14a).

If you claim to be a soul winner, and you have neither tasted this kind of conversion in your own life, nor the lives of the ones that you have led to Christ, then may I say that I feel sorry for you, right after I say "Shame on you!!!"

I have never claimed to have won even one soul for God...

Only God can win a soul.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I will change one word in your above statement:

Only God can [b]save[/b] a soul.

... after all, I don't think that the Proverb is speaking of God, when it says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and [b]he that winneth souls is wise[/b]." [b]Prov 11:30[/b]

The Holy Spirit can touch the spirit of someone unsaved, creating a longing and curiosity about God. He can place people in the unsaved person's path, to witness for God, by their walk, or their words, or their passion for God. And the Holy Spirit must prepare all knowledge and readiness for a sinner to make a decision for or against Jesus. After the decision, the Holy Spirit again takes over, to teach and comfort the new convert through the journey to holiness, a lifelong quest to get nearer to the example of Jesus.

I totally agree with your statements here. However, they need take nothing anything away from Jesse's, or my comments in this thread. If we take your statements without ours, one can conclude that there is no place for the preaching of the gospel, because the "Holy Spirit can the spirit of someone unsaved". Don't forget, that this "unsaved" person, as you would call them, is what the Bible calls a "sinner" who has set himself up as an "enemy of God".

The sinner must be made aware of the fact of his enmity with God, before he can repent, and he must repent before he can put his actual trust in Christ. Sure, he can make a "decision" without repenting, but ask him about his poverty in spirit, and he'll respond by saying that he's "not that bad a person", as if Jesus had to die for everyone but him. This is what makes "backsliders" which one wise man called "counterfeit converts who never really slid forward in the first place."

It is a rare thing for a single person, despite the help of the Holy Spirit, to have such influence over a sinner as to bring them, in the human portion of the process, to God.

May I suggest that you reread both my and Jesse's posts again, for you seam to be of the impression that we ignore the providence and grace of God in salvation. Far from it. It is only by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit that a man can be saved. However, the Holy Spirit will lead a man to hear the message of repentance, through to faith, before He gives them His life.

If you are wondering why I am being so pedantic in this matter, it is because I for one have witnessed repeated victims of the preaching of a diluted gospel that fails to emphasise "sin, righteousness and judgement", in favour of "avoidance of hell" and the "meeting of needs". The error is what is know as a "human centred gospel", while the former is Christ centred, utilising what Christ said was the testimony of the Holy Spirit (called the Comforter) to the world (John 16:7-8). This is true "Holy Ghost preaching".

I appreciate many things said in this post. I have nothing to add, but know someone who does.

Richard Owen Roberts has a 2002 book; "Repentance: The First Word of the Gospel".

At about 350 pages he gives the topic a thorough going over. I hate to recommend a book I haven't finished reading but I can't resist. I'm not even half way through it and yet God has used it mightily in my life. I think it's important that the Lord has led me to pray before I read a section that the main purpose of reading is not to learn about repentance, but to do it, reflecting Thomas a Kempis, "I would far rather feel contrition than be able to define it."

Richard Owen Roberts is a venerable preacher with 33 audio/video and 10 text sermons available at SI. His "Seek My Face" is #7 on the "Top 25 Downloads" (link on left). Check him out if you haven't done so yet. And get the book too.

Jeffrey

If a person comes to Christ because of what they can get, they are just as selfish as a person who goes to a prostitute because of what they can get.

This statement is a little off. Allow me to explain.

A person who goes to a prostitute is in no way led by God to do so, and is working out the desires of their heart. Their will is enslaved to their heart which is a "slave to sin". Now to compare this to a person coming to Christ is very dangerous, for if someone truly comes to Christ, it is not because they are seeking some benefit for self, but rather because the Holy Spirit is convicting them and God is at work. To cheapen the work of God, and render Him impotent in salvation has been a drastic failure in modern day evangelism.

I too am glad that I am not Finney, as he had a very different view of what is was to be a Christian. I do not know much about his theology, but I do know that he would almost condemn people for moral failure, and thus create a guilt that may or not have been from God. The problem with this is of course who is moral enough, I mean if I have one standard of what I think a Christian should look like(no tea or sugar which Finney pushed) then what if others have a differing idea like no shorts and only suits and ties in Church. Do you see the problem with this, and how it can lead division rather than unity?

If one needs only to meet a moral criteria, then brethren we are in trouble as that wave is never stable, but constantly vascilating. Yet Christ is all, and He is the end of the Law to all who believe in Him.

Just some things to ponder.