sermonindex
Feb 25, 2007
I was watching Dr. Michael Brown speak on this:
I was watching Dr. Michael Brown speak on this:
Excellent!
Thanks for sharing this.
Neil,
Have you encountered this theology personally? If so, how did you deal with it?
Mr. Brown makes a statement that I wrestle with: when you encounter a Jew who takes offense with Gentiles or Christians who initiated persecution of Jews, we are to apologize for them.
Now, I believe it is abhorrant to persecute anyone, even homos. Believers are never called to injure anyone for any reason. If anyone needs to be killed because of criminal behavior, this is the states' job (read Romans 13.)We do not read where Jesus or his disciples apologized to anyone for another person's ungodly behavior.....
In encountering a Jew or a black person who have complaints against Gentile or white people because of persecution or slavery, all I can say is I am sorry it happened, this is not the way all people act and believe. If you look to history you will find people in these races who worked to stop it. Have you considered that? Seems to me too many people of color like to use the race card to justify their own racist attitudes. And what is the Jew's excuse? I have not met that many, except for Neil....Regardless of your race, your church affliation, you will always find people who will give offense and the offended will use it to justify their rejection of the gospel.
When I apologize for another's ungodly behaviors I cannot promise there will be no repeat offenses given. But if it is my own behavior that needs to be dealth with, then I am responcible and should work to eliminate it from my lifestyle. God says: "The man that sinneth, he shall die." Eze. 18:20....the NT has not changed/altered this principle.
Any comments? Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?
Oherwise, I enjoyed the message given on the video.
ginnyrose
you asked
Have you encountered this theology personally?
yes, right here on this forum.
If so, how did you deal with it?
regard the person who wrote it as wrong, wrong-headed, wrong-hearted, and missing the mark entirely on what God has to say about the Jews.
And what is the Jew's excuse?
none, except as Paul wrote 'a hardeneding of the heart until the full number of the Gentiles are brought in'. But the "church" hasnt helped display the Love of Jesus, here's an article I found while looking up the 14 year old pregnant article you posted.
"Virginia Principal: Students' Jesus Chants Are Anti-Semitic
Saturday , February 24, 2007
VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. —A Catholic school principal has organized sensitivity training for students who shouted "We love Jesus" during a basketball game against a school with Jewish students.
The word "Jew" also was painted on a gym wall behind the seats of Bishop Sullivan Catholic High School students attending the Feb. 2 game at Norfolk Academy, said Dennis W. Price, principal of the Virginia Beach school.
Price who also watched the game, said the rivals exchanged chants, "Then, at some point, our students were chanting, 'We love Jesus."'
"It was obviously in reference to the Jewish population of Norfolk Academy; that's the only way you can take that," he added.
Price said he sent a letter of apology to Norfolk. Dennis G. Manning, the academy's headmaster, declined to comment.
Several Sullivan students met with Norfolk Academy's cultural diversity club Thursday as part of a series of events aimed at promoting tolerance, Price said.
He has arranged for the Virginia Conference for Community and Justice and the United Jewish Federation of Tidewater to work with students.
A message left for the United Jewish Federation of Tidewater was not immediately returned Saturday.
Price also has consulted the Anti-Defamation League, a national group that fights anti-Semitism.
"It is important that we work harder at having students leaving here who are tolerant and understand how serious these kinds of things are," said Price, who said diversity training will be incorporated permanently at Sullivan.
connect the dots, look into your heart, do you wish to see "gay" people saved by Grace?...then I ask you this, what do think they would feel if they saw you refer them in your previous post as "homos"?
Does that reflect the Love of Messiah?
I'm glad enjoyed the video, after my mentor, my pastor and an elder laid hands on me and prayed, the third person to lay hands on me and pray was Dr. Michael Brown.
I write all above in Jesus love, neil
Hi Neil,
I've watched the clip of Dr Brown, and I hear the definition he gives for 'replacement theology' is the notion that Jews can and should be excluded from the Church because they have no further place in the economy of God.
Is this the 'replacement theology' you are objecting to?
I would too, but I'll wait for your answer.
Meanwhile, here is the context of the verse he quotes in Matthew 23. I've taken it from v 25, in the YLT, to do justice to both nouns and verbs.
[color=006699]`Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye make clean the outside of the cup and the plate, and within they are full of rapine and incontinence.
Blind Pharisee! cleanse first the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside of them also may become clean.
Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye are like to whitewashed sepulchres, which outwardly indeed do appear beautiful, and within are full of bones of dead men, and of all uncleanness; so also ye outwardly indeed do appear to men righteous, and within ye are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
Wo to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and adorn the tombs of the righteous, and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets; and ye -- ye fill up the measure of your fathers.
Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city; that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar: verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will. Lo, left desolate to you is your house; for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, [b]Blessed he who is coming in the name of the Lord.
Neil, I'm not sure what your reason for starting this thread was, but I presume it was to make some folks aware of the hatred that is being harbored in the churches toward Jews. Is that right?
Honestly, I've never understood that replacement theology. It's such hogwash and I can't see how anyone could glean that from scripture. I knew that replacement theology exists, but for some reason, even as an ignorant, baby Christian, I knew better. God would never forsake Israel or anyone to whom He makes a promise. I've always considered myself a Jew. I was adopted by God into the family.
I had a Jewish neighbor at one time. I witnessed to him often. He liked me. He would always have theological discussions with me across the fence. One day, I told him that I considered myself Jewish because I had been grafted into the family. He was astonished. He said he had never heard that before. In the end, before we moved away, I was able to present the straight on Gospel to him in his living room. He thanked me and told me he thought I was wrong. I told him, "I hope I am, because if you're right and I'm wrong, you'll be ok."
I believe we should honor the Jewish people because God loves them and the whole purpose for my salvation as a Gentile is to provoke the Jew to jealousy.
I love you, Neil. I wish I could make up for all the so-called Christians who have hurt you. I realize that the Holocaust was purpotrated in the name of Christianity, but I don't believe it could have happened if God hadn't allowed it.
Art Katz constantly talks about the responsibility that the Jews have for their own judgement. You know, he even believes that the Holocaust was just preliminary and that the Time of Jacob's Trouble hasn't actually occured yet. He predicts a time in the future when the Jewish people will be fleeing for their lives over the whole earth. I think this mindset of replacement theology is just the demonic force that is prowling this earth waiting to pounce. The persecution you have experienced in people's attitudes is nothing in comparison to what is to come.
You can come to my house. I will hide you, because I love you and I don't care what it costs me. I'll give my life to save you. It would be a priviledge. Love, Dian.
(I;m smiling while I write this btw)
No Christian has hurt me, not at all. True, I am wary of some in the lower case c "church" in regards towards the Jews, and do regard "replacement theology" as theological spew, at best, demonic, at its worst.
Dr Michael Brown is much more adept at refuting this foul spew than I am, thats why I posted it.
and much love to you for wanting to "hide me out", don't worry. Remember where Jesus told the disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword?
The Lord wasn't talking in metaphor, true that Peter, as was his wont, got a lil enthusiastic by proclaiming that he was going to buy two, to which Jesus replied, "thats enough". That bit of Scripture always makes me laugh.
The Lord wasnt talking in metaphor, and he was talking to fellow Israelites who were His followers, so........
When I was a child in Hebrew school, I remember reading everything I could get my hands about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. As part of our Hebrew school and Torah study, we always learned in detail about the Holocaust. Not to keep us in fear, or to make us bitter, but the term,"Never Forget" was the linchpin behind this study, because at that same time, the Six Day War of 1967 had just been fought and Jerusalem reclaimed by Israel. The Six Day War was a massive Israeli pre-emptive strike against the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Syria nd Lebanon, after years of these nations and the Arab league baying for the blood and the destruction of Israel.
In that corner of the world, Israel takes arab threats seriously, much like the situation today with Iran. Iran has threatened that they will wipe the "zionist entity" from the map "with fire". Israel gave them one warning several months ago to cease their quest for nuclear weaponry, they ignored this warning, and you will see how this situation will play out.
buy a 4 cylinder car dear sister, you're going to be paying 6 to 7 dollars for a gallon of gas after Israel denudes Iran's nuclear ambitions.
here's the wikipedia entry on the Warsaw Ghetto uprising:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_ghetto_uprising
God bless you for worrying about me, we aint gonna be hiding. Israel's policy is that ANY Jew ANYWHERE in the world can claim Israeli citizenship at anytime.
Wrapped in Jesus, neil
bartle said
You know how slow I am, bro.... but, justIsrael's policy is that ANY Jew ANYWHERE in the world can claim Israeli citizenship at anytime.
I know this theology is in this country, we were just talking about a church that believes in it.
bartle,
When you are able I ask you to please respond to dorcas' earlier question:
I've watched the clip of Dr Brown, and I hear the definition he gives for 'replacement theology' is the notion that Jews can and should be excluded from the Church because they have no further place in the economy of God.Is this the 'replacement theology' you are objecting to?
Also, Spitfire you said:
I believe we should honor the Jewish people because God loves them and the whole purpose for my salvation as a Gentile is to provoke the Jew to jealousy.
I don't think the whole purpose for your salvation is to make the Jews jealous. Part of the purpose maybe.
Neil, I listened to the video, and a few thoughts came to me.
when you encounter a Jew who takes offense with Gentiles or Christians who initiated persecution of Jews, we are to apologize for them.
I do wonder about the Dr. Brown’s claim that true born-again spirit-filled Christians are becoming more and more anti-Semitic. I wonder how he arrives at this conclusion. Certainly in my own experience I see quite the opposite – even in our complacent churches. I see so much caution extended towards the Jews that sometimes I wonder if they are regarded as beyond needing salvation. After all they ARE God’s chosen people. To me it is not love to view anyone as not needing to experience God’s salvation and grace.
I would like to see the barriers taken down – less suspicion, less blame – on either side. After all, in Ephesians two we read how God has made us one in Christ. May the Lord work in our lives to tear down the walls –and bring us to that place of oneness: at the foot of the cross.
No replacement! Just oneness!
Diane
I am not able to view the video. I do not have the right player on my computer.
I do not believe in "replacement" Theology, but I do believe in "Fulfillment" Theology. In that:
Jesus Christ, being a Jewish man, is the "True" Israel.
He is the Servant of the Lord.
He is the Seed of Abraham.
He is the Son of David.
He is The Seed of the Woman
He is the true Promised Land, and our inheritance.
He is the true Temple of the Lord.
He is the true Sacrifice
He is the true High Priest
He is the Passover Lamb
He is the Sabbath
Etc.
The Substance has come. The types and shadows have been done away with.
Why would God go back to the types and shadows of an actual temple and animal sacrifice, when their whole purpose was to point to the True Temple, and the True Sacrifice? Isn't that what the Book of Hebrews is talking about? In fact Hebrews chapter 10 condemns anyone that would leave the True and Final Sacrifice of God's Son, and go back to the types and the shadows of Old Covenant.
Has God forsaken Israel? Absolutely not! Look at the Apostle Paul, he is in Christ. He has received the Promise God gave to Abraham. Look Dr. Michael Brown, he is in Christ. He has received the Promise God gave to Abraham.
The True Land. The True Promised Land....is Christ! God has fulfilled His Covenant Promises. He cannot lie. Any Jewish man or woman who is in Christ has received the fulfillment of that Promise!
I hate to sound like a broken record... but the Word of Faith Movement borrows a lot from "replacement theology". While they do not adhere to "replacement theology" persay, the WOF'ers do claim the promises God made to Israel, and believe that those promises are for the Christian.
They are not. Some of the principles apply to us (honor your parents so that your days may be many, etc). But the promises made in the Law were made to the Jew. Not Christians.
This is the root of the "health & wealth" crowd. Without borrowing this from "replacement theology", the whole health & wealth doctrine would fall to pieces... as it should.
Krispy
Hmm, Jesus spoke well of this in the gospel of mark chapter 7 verses 5-13. But for times sake, and the sake of the evangel, we must preach today. This is a perfect way to cut down every tradition of men. (I mean the 1534 N.T with 1525 tdale variants)
Mark 7:11-13: But ye say; a man shall say to his father or mother corban; that is, whatsoever thing I offer, that same doth profit thee.
12 And ye suffer no more that a man do anything for his father or mother.
13 Thus ye have made the commandment of God of none effect, through your own tradicions which ye have ordayned.
America follows after preachers who are none that doeth good, no not one. From romans 3:12-18 and there was no fear of God before their eyes.
So speak ye, so do, as they that are judged according to the law of liberty. Iames 2:12 (K.J
Krispy, what do you think about Charles Finney's work in the Oberlin Evangelist on the Promises of God (which was compiled into The Promise of The Spirit later, and was a favorite book of Keith Green and Leonard Ravenhill).
I'll specifically reference this [url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/1839OE/390717_the_promises_5.htm]lecture
[b]Some of the reasons why the promises are not fulfilled in and to us.[/b] 6. Again, we do not receive them as belonging to us, as in the case that I have mentioned, where one supposed that the promise of the New Testament was made only to the Jews. Now multitudes seem never to have understood the promises made to individuals and to the Church under the Old Covenant, as belonging still more emphatically to the Church and to individuals under the Christian dispensation. They seem entirely to have overlooked the fact that Christ and his apostles always treated the promises of the Old Testament, as more emphatically belonging to Christians under the New dispensation. Now here is a sufficient reason for their not receiving the fulfillment of the promises, that they do not understand them as made to themselves. Consequently they do not believe nor apply them.
Do you think that Zac Poonen and Leonard Ravenhill are heavy into Replacement Theology?
Ian... give me some time to review this, and I'll comment at a later time, ok?
Krispy
this will probably be the second to last post I make for a while, I explain that in my next post in the ATF thread, but you asked:
but, just why would you want to be in Israel for a war?
I didnt say I would want to be, its just that if America someday goes the way of Germany circa 1923-1933, a Jew has a homeland to return to, rather than be rounded up and slaughtered like sheep.
and secondly, if it ever came to that, given my background in military intelligence and analysis, I might have something to offer.
But as far as going overseas is concerned I find myself drawn to either Korea or Rwanda.(most probably Korea, North Korea, when the pharoah is gone) The Lord has not yet given me release on this yet.
love, neil
Re Sister Dorcas
Neil,
Thank you. I now see what you are getting at. You know, I have terrible trouble understanding the level of anti-semetism which your perceive, as it really is foreign to my experience, apart from what happened in Nigeria when I was a teen, when one tribe was singled out for extinction.
The genocide in Biafra happened when my father was out there, with the war front crossing back and forward over the part where he worked - British bombs being dropped on his red cross-marked hospital buildings. I had the privilege to meet a young woman years afterward in the UK, who'd been one of those surgical patients, whose aunt, the anaesthetic nurse (as it happened), had stayed to give her oxygen while she was unconscious till a raid was over. Sometimes the staff had no choice but to leave the hospital to the enemy, as it advanced again. Over one period of weeks, 30,000 people a day were dying of starvation, despite the involvement of very able aid agencies. It was because of the mis-reporting of all this, that Fredrick Forsyth (whose news reports were being thrown in the bin), gave up journalism and became a novelist.
Also, many years ago in this country, I met a shining Christian nurse, who was North Korean but married to a Brit. She tried to explain to me what it was like at home, but this has begun to make sense only since coming to SI. Amazing how such an incident (one meeting) should have made such an impression on me, and I can still remember her face and smile, while many many other 'one meeting's have completely faded from memory. So, regarding the call you feel to Rwanda, or North Korea, I think I understand.
You know, you have a Korean couple leading one of the Salvation Army corps in Chicago.... maybe not to far for you to slip along and meet them? 8-)
Isn't it awesome that Diane has such a testimony of her family giving their lives to help Jews during WW2? I do hope you may acknowledge this when you have time to post, next. :-D Linn
I do wonder about the Dr. Brown’s claim that true born-again spirit-filled Christians are becoming more and more anti-Semitic. I wonder how he arrives at this conclusion. Certainly in my own experience I see quite the opposite – even in our complacent churches. I see so much caution extended towards the Jews that sometimes I wonder if they are regarded as beyond needing salvation. After all they ARE God’s chosen people. To me it is not love to view anyone as not needing to experience God’s salvation and grace.
I couldn't agree with this more, I'm just listening to the message right now so might have more to say later. I have been attending mainstream Christian churches since I was in the womb, and have never heard one word against the Jews, or that they didn't deserve salvation, or anything remotely resembling anti-Semitism. In fact, quite the opposite. We were taught to reach out to the Jews, pray for the peace of Jerusalem, etc. Just my $0.03 (inflation taken into account. :-) )
Quote:Have you encountered this theology personally?
yes, right here on this forum.
This discussion is locked.