I know a little bit about ATF

My name is Robert and I took some youth to an ATF even last year and to the summer camp also. Their message is right on. Their approach, I don't agree with. I believe that the message is lost in all the hype, unless you are actually looking for a true gospel message. The actual ground of ATF are where Keith Green used to run his Last Day's Ministries. ATF bought it and turned it into Teen Mania. Ron Luce has an awesome quote, but once again I think his approach could be better. "If you give teenagers a watered down gospel you'll have watered down christian teenagers."

Also, I have met Ron Luce and heard him express disgust over the modern message being presented to our youth and how cheap the gospel is being presented to them. At last years ATF Ron Luce shouted, "I'd rather fail a test in school than to fail God!" I don't know if you count that radical but I think you should probably research more before you point fingers. It's good to be skeptical, but it's not good to pass judgement before you've done your research.

ATF and Ron Luce have their hearts in the right place, their message straight from the Bible, but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with. I wish they would kill the light, stop the rock bands, and just have one man with a Bible preaching, then see who would try and Acquire the Fire.

These threads have been extremly revealing. Our ministry attracts a lot of youth and one of the things that i have come to notice is that unconverted church kids are many times worse than raw sinners. They have no fear of God left in em, they want the church to be some kind of christian youth club that stoops down to relate to them rather than calls them to rise to Gods standards. They know how to play the church game, but they are worldy and unsaved, fornicating, cussing, world loving and hell bound. I have nothing against christian popular music if it is sincere and godly, music is so integral to todays culture we use it as a vehicle to reach souls but only that. But unfortunatley too much christian music is techinically excellent but spiritually lame. What I have seen is that converted youth tuned into the old and tried ways of the simplicity of the faith do have a true fire. We preach to them not the fire of excitement but the fire of obedience. Obedience to do the will of God produces more vibrancy and passion in christians than anything, pursuing passion and vibrancy for its own sake is the big mistake of our times we are creating emotionaly doped out saints who love the Big event the atmsophere of a moment but cant obey God the next day! I get kids leave my church when they find that i wont stoop to do anything to keep them in the church I preach unconditional obedience to Christ the ones who are embracing obedience are discovering the true joy of living for Christ.

i say again, why would anyone who is saved by Jesus precius blood want to listen to the worlds music? just becuse they say Jesus in the song dosent make it ok, its from the devil...

but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with. I wish they would kill the light, stop the rock bands, and just have one man with a Bible preaching

In our culture we have become accustomed to mass-producing people like factories. Ex: Schools use the cookie cutter method. We just take that cultural value into religion.

then see who would try and Acquire the Fire.

A preacher once said, “If the Spirit doesn’t move the people, I move the Spirit.” So, really we are playing God.

Thankfully the Spirit can penetrate through all the layers and touch souls – one here, and one there. But the vast majority will be no different than the countless in past generations: addicted to religion. And you won’t ever change that.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Robert.
Diane

let me refrase, if a christian bannd , if what you se on mtv or other "wordly" godless tv channels and "cultures" of today...in many bands the only difference is they say jesus or qoute scripture. i like Keith Green, but the hardcore heavy metalbands.. heavy music black hair and look like demons... is that a deciple of Jesus? a follower of the light of the world? my unconverted mother would run if she jkust saw some of the people claiming to be christians, as keith daniel said when he heard a christian rock song....thats as close to hell ive been on this earth

i just listend to this sermon by erlo stegen... someone should write him a letter...he said if you listen to rock music you are going to hell, becuse your body should be a sacrifice to the lord, your ears to, if you listen to rock you playing around whit christianity... maybe i took it out of context?

anyone want to listen

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=14490&commentView=itemComments

Remnant119 wrote:
ATF and Ron Luce have their hearts in the right place, their message straight from the Bible, but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with.

I thought I'd insert a great quote here:

"Brass is mistaken for gold more easily than clay is." - CS Lewis

May I recommend the following sermon for your consideration, [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3324]Holiness Or Blessing[/url] by Art Katz? Some good thoughts here that would be relevant to the matter discussed here.

If our youth don't meet Christ through us, then how can we expect them to put their trust in him?

Aint this the truth?

As a Christian parent, I can not in good conscience entrust my children to your typical 'youth ministry'. My over arching objective is for my children to entrust their lives to Jesus. This is a 24/7 calling that rebukes hypocrasy, and breaks convenient illusions of self-righteousness in the honest parent. Now realizing how careful we as parents must walk in love and holiness with much transparency before the careful gaze of our children and in more fear of God...how in the world could we then not look with suspicion upon youth leaders who lift up Christian rock bands, punk hair styles and pizza parties?

These youth groups may serve some function as 'intermediate' steps for the many children lost to the world...but if we were really cross-culture missionaries we would bring the cross over into their cultures. I say that more then to be clever...you cannot imitate a rebellous culture and at the same time ask children to repent of it. As Ed Orr once said..."It is one thing for a ship to be water...but quite another for water to be in the ship" Youth pastors who wear earrings, hire rock bands, and spout hip youthful prhases are perhaps making a connection with the kids...but I fear they are sinking the very ship that was sent to rescue them.

This is not because these things are so bad or evil in themselves. I am not talking about petty legalism...and certainly I'm not talking about 'banning' all this stuff. I'm talking about the incessant centrality this stuff seems to occupy in youth ministries. If you believe that kids need Christian rock and pizza parties to see Jesus then that is also legalistic.

The issue I have here is that to many of these children, their worldy music, clothes, and heroes are powerful symbols of a reality that has their minds and hearts...this reality tells them that they are hopeless, without love, and wthout God. The world, including their own education system, tells them their souls are worthless, or non-existent and as a result they feel entitled to take whatever pleasure or pay-back they can get regardless of the damage to themselves.

For this reason youth pastors who stylize the Word of God after these worldy devices to win the affections of teenagers are not, (in my opinion) being faithful shepherds to the souls entrusted to them, but instead are taking the low road in order to achieve temporary results. They are adding to the confusion and not walking in the light as Christ is in the light.

Hey, this does not just apply to the use of hip hop and rock in the church...but also to the wall street corporatization of our churches as well. Some big time pastors need to spend less time with their white collar business friends and more time with their blue collar flock who don't have anything to offer them in return.

Well, my original point was that Christian parenting, if properly walked out, would censure most youth groups today. I think Krispy had mentioned this in another thread, and I agree with him...the reason youth groups are such a big deal these days is because parenting has become a small deal.

All of this self-righteous 'you don't understand my culture' hub-bub is leading me to the conclusion that churches should do away with...or at least minimize the role of youth groups and simply serve the same Word of God to the teens as they do the adults. This way the young men can be around more mature Godly men, (and they had better be!) and the young ladies can be around Godly women. (And they had better be!)

Now I have several friends who are youth pastors and I think they know exactly where I'm coming from. Keeping the youth lovingly alongside the adults in church would be real 'cross-culturalism'...not this closed door youth ghetto we have down the hall today in most churches.

Blessings,

MC

ATF and Ron Luce have their hearts in the right place, their message straight from the Bible, but the way they attract teenagers I don't agree with. I wish they would kill the light, stop the rock bands, and just have one man with a Bible preaching, then see who would try and Acquire the Fire.

You know, I didn't see anyone post anything about this, and it's kind of shocking to me.

William Booth, leader of the Salvation Army used to dress in military clothes, he put together a band, and they all dressed in militery clothes. Then they would march through the streets playing their music as loud as they could to attract people. Then they would have preaching afterwards and many would get saved.

So in essence, they had loud music, strange clothes, and if you watch the videos on the site, it looks as though there was some hype.

[b]All the people so far say that the approach is wrong, [u]but none of them would be bold enough to question the approach of William Booth.[/u] I think in the next ten years, we will see the results of whether the approach is good or not.[/b]

Actually, I think events like Aquire the Fire are more for maintaining the status quo. The fact of the matter is I'm in touch with different ministries on a daily basis and there aren't many organizations that are blazing a new trail, most of them are just trying to keep weeds from growing over the ones that were blazed in revivals past -usually without much success.

Aquire the Fire is mostly for kids who are already involved in church, in order to inspire them to go deeper in their spiritual walk or consider missions -or just to think that its ok to be a Christian and to be a youth.

You're right, we need to take the cross into other cultures, but we don't necessarily need to bring our hymn books or liturgies... they need the cross, not our church culture or white middle class suburban culture.

People need Jesus! I'm not watering down anything, i'm trying to purify the Gospel.

Keith Green was looked on as satanic thirty years ago because he played rock music... by our standards in thirty more years the rock bands of today will seem tame. So a God that is timeless isn't going to see them through our eyes, he's looking for the hearts of people, not listening to the rythm of the music.

If we went back a hundred years and tried to sing some of our modern praise music, even the good Christ ordained kind that everyone in this forum can agree upon -we'd probably be shouted off the stage, because that music would be considered devil worship.

We need to realize that our preferences in music are not biblical, they're personal. Yes, when a band is seeking prestige and is full of pride then we should discourage that... but a lot of Christian bands are not... and a lot of Christian preachers are. So we need to be careful to avoid blanket condemnation.

what is it that is so hard by accepting some music as wicked? why do we defend it so much.... two things i find people defending ....sins and their music style.... if we cant even change our music style and let go of it...how in the world can we let go of every thing we own?

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

our ears are part of that body too

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

if the world accepts it and "likes" it, what in the world are Christians doing "imitating" their music

Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

hmmhmm,

Please understand me when I say this, for more than two years I fasted from all the music that I loved, rock, punk, classical, jazz... I can't even stand to put on the Christian radio station because they play so many commercials for Christian dating services.

No music is in itself unclean. No instrument is a tool of satan... no genre is inherantly evil. There are proud and arrogant musicians playing every type of music, everything from hymns to ska!

Honestly, one thing that bugs me is when one man or woman in church will sing in a strong vibrato or in a different pitch because they think that they are doing the rest of a congregation a service by sharing their voice -when to me it's like fingernails on a chalk board.

I believe like Dietrich Bonhoeffer that when we lift praises to God our voices should blend together into one voice, where our own identity is lost in the praises being lifted up to God... in so many churches you hear chaos of different voices competing with eachother... at a rock concert when you're singing along with the lead singer you can't hear your voice at all... when everyone is singing it's one glorious noise to the Lord.

There's a lot of selfish individualism in church music in our churches... in rock music I can be alone, together, with God, with others, all at once in one beautiful sound.

Maybe I'm not going to the same Christian concerts as you guys, my two favorite Christian bands have long since broken up to go onto other ministries and raise families... I'd have to go to denver to hear the other one i like, that's a little out of the way.

I'm not imitating anyone's music. There were puritans who refused to listen to classical music -but we've seen past that. There were Christians who condemned William Booth for his music, there were people who were disgusted with Charles Wesley, some people didn't like the Hymns of Fanny Crosby... People thought that Keith Green was a satan worshiper because of his music... time will heal all wounds.

You can choose to condemn it here, but in the future there will be people that consider this music tame and glorifying to God. Frankly I'd rather have been the one who liked Charles Wesley's hymns when they were new than have to look back in retrospect and in humility and admit my small heart and understanding.

This is not to say that Skillet or any one band is Godly, we must discern on a case by case basis, but we should not blanket them with condemnation -we should seek God's heart in the matter.

Some people are told by God not to drink alchohal, but this doesnt' mean that it's a biblical mandate to be a teatotaller! Absolutely not, you're no less of a Christian if you choose to drink than if you abstain. The bible warns us about drunkeness and I think we can apply these things to rock music as well.

The bible warns us against making anything an idol -well that means our job, our ministry, our forum, our wife... it can also mean a rock band... but it doesn't exclusively mean rock bands and rock music, and it certainly doesn't mean that all jobs, ministries, forums, wives and rock bands are idols -that's a grosse perversion of the proper understanding of biblical truth!

what is it that is so hard by accepting some music as wicked? why do we defend it so much.... two things i find people defending ....sins and their music style.... if we cant even change our music style and let go of it...how in the world can we let go of every thing we own?

There is a lot of wicked music out there. There I admitted it for you.

Now we can move on to dealing with sin issues instead of music.

What frustrated me about this whole thing is that it was the music that was attacked. If you want to say, that man does not read his Bible, he does not pray, he does not fellowship with other believers, and you have evidence of such behavior. You will have a case against the man and his music.

If however you are arguing that because the man plays rock music then he is not a Christian, then you are severely in need of the revelation of Christ.

[b]Would you say that Kieth Green's music was worldly?[/b]

If you do, then it is obvious what your problem is, you believe in a works mentality.

If you do not, then you need to reread what iansmith wrote about music and culture.

Keith Green was looked on as satanic thirty years ago because he played rock music... by our standards in thirty more years the rock bands of today will seem tame.

hmmmm...

I don't remember which sermon it was, maybe "Regeneration & self-denial", Paul Washer uses something like that as an example of how our culture is degenerating morally.

He said (in my own words) that "if you would have gone to a beach 60 years ago wearing what is commonly excepted today, the secular authorities would have either thrown you in jail, or commit you to an insane asylum." and, "if thats how cold we've become to sin in the last 60 years, we can't even begin to imagine how far we have fallen back in the last 6000 years!"

Can't you see whats happening? The longer time goes on it seems the more we come to accept more of the world, at first just a little in this area, and then a little more, and then a little more, and it just keeps going downhill. (Now I'm not saying that Keith Green is satanic!)

I could go into all kinds of studies that have been done on styles of music. even secular studies that show how human bodies are not suited to listen to rock music. Studies that show the effect this kind of music has on your mind, even the "Christian rock" (Keith Daniel says there is no such thing as "Christian rock"). But the real issue here is the Glory of God. Do we even know what that means??? Do we even have the faintest idea of what the Glory of God is? To an extent, I don't really care what that music does to my body or mind. But the Glory of God brothers! The Glory of God!

We have fallen far from what the Church used to be, and what it aught to be.

If we went back a hundred years and tried to sing some of our modern praise music, even the good Christ ordained kind that everyone in this forum can agree upon -we'd probably be shouted off the stage, because that music would be considered devil worship.

Why do think that would be?? what if we went farther back, say 1900 years ago? what do you think the Church would have had to say about it then? what about even farther back, say... to the days of Solomon? imagine some of these bands playing in the temple courts. Do you think that would have been tolerated? Now, all that to say, if godly men in the past, even until 100 years ago wouldn't stand for this kind of music, why the change in our generation? why, in the past few generations have many of the moral standards in the Church crumbled, why is it not considered compromise anymore. If this is allowed to continue, will our grandchildren accept homosexuality in the Church as the norm???

Ian (i love you brother), you said that preference in music is personal. i agree with you. Now, if our music is toward God, we should ask Him what His personal preference is and stick to that, don't you think? ;-)

thats all for now :-)

Ben... there is a big difference between wearing military style uniforms and wearing revealing clothing (in the case of many female Christian singers today) or dressing like a drug dealer (see one of the pics on the other thread).

If you cant see the difference, then I guess I need to be more concerned for you than I already am.

Your comparison is silly.

Think about this... William Booths uniforms set them apart. Dress in modern music is designed to do just the opposite. Which one do you think is more scriptural. (Hint: William Booth!)

First of all, what is your definition of revealing clothing?

Second, which groups are you talking about?

Third, how many drug dealers do you know personally that dress like that?

I have met a few, and they don't have a specific style of clothing they wear, if they did, the cops would pick them up right away, that is just ridiculous.

Lastly, my dad was reading your post while I was reading it, and he wants to know why you are looking at women in revealing clothing?

well i nailed my culture to the cross, i recommend you do the same brother, my culture was evil to the core, I'm glad I'm not a part of it anymore. Now my culture is following Jesus, words from ravenhill come to mind...is the world crucified to you? or does it fascinate you?

i believe rock is evil, Ive read much about it, where it came from its roots, Ive lived as an ungodly man in the mist of that world, and just because you ad Jesus to it don't make it alright and clean.... many run whit Jesus in one hand and grasping for the world whit the other...it wont do, to me its like this...if it looks like the world... if it smells like the world.. if it acts like the world ....sounds like the world

guess what?

probably is of the world, but thats my opinion.
i believe so, i listen to ravenhill, washer, Stegen, k.daniel and many many many multitudes of godly holy men of God and they say the same thing as i do.... you guys disagree whit them thats ok... but why do you get so defensive when someone say its wicked?

or dressing like a drug dealer

Funny, all the big time drug dealers I've ever known have dressed like pretty unassumingly -that way they don't get caught.

Will Smith the actor isn't a drug dealer, but if you'd never seen his television shows or movies and applied your blanket assumptions upon him you'd assume that he was just a crack pusher based on his cloths.

There are plenty of kids who love their bibles and have a heart sold out to Jesus who wear fubu and diesel. We all want to wear nice things, and sometimes nice things are in the eye of the beholder.

Now I do admit that young women need to dress more modestly, but I've seen Christian parents dress their daughters in skirts and tops that on a girl five or ten years older would be sinful -when you start them on it young it's going to be hard to explain to them why they have to start dressing differently later.

Neither of the two girls in the picture on the other thread appeared to be wearing anything that just screamed -sin! I've seen girls playing piano at churches for worship service wearing less than that!