The truth about Ian!!!!!

Commentary on my own posts on the topic of Aquire the Fire and the modern youth culture over the last two days.

[b]Acquire the fire post 1.[/b]

Those guys look pretty cool -I'd hang out with them!

Let me get one thing straight, if they love Jesus it doesn't matter if they have a mohawk or piercings.

I bet Jesus would prefer to go to a punk rock show than some of our churches.

It's sad to hear about the kids in one of the posts earlier, but you know what, we can judge a whole event or organization by a few kids but that would be wrong.

We all love Leonard Ravenhill and Keith Green... well do you know where the headquarters of ATF is located? On Keith Green's ranch (the old LDM campus) in Texas! A lot of the senior members of the ministry were raised up through Last Days and other ministries we all love!

They use a different 'means' to reach out to youth, but their theology is sound! There's always going to be problems in any ministry, I bet even David Wilkerson has a few rotten eggs, but don't judge this book by it's cover.

They're getting kids into missions! That's awesome, that was Keith Green's final desire -it's good to see that someone is still listening 25 years later.

Wow, me and Ben agreeing on something... it must be the end times!

[b]Acquire the fire post 2. [/b]

Studying missions there's one theme we talk about a lot -how do we allow a people group to become Christian but still be that people group.

Often we go out and try to win people to Christ by making them patriotic Americans -even if they're indiginous Kenyans or Vietnamese. We need to be able to see what is good about their culture and allow that to continue while bringing them to the saving faith of Jesus.

Robert de Nobili and Mateo Ricci were successful in China because they wore chinese clothing, spoke fluent chinese, could wax eloquent in Chinese with the best poets and philosophers of the time in China... and by bringing them Jesus through 'means' that the Chinese could understand. Their ministry flourished!

We have tribes of youth who would accept Jesus if we didn't force them to listen to our music and join our 'american church' culture. Let's just be honest here, everything we think of as part of Christianity in the USA isn't always part of Christianity to people in other regions of the world.

They need Jesus, they don't need our churches... I'm just glad someone is going to them as a cross-cultural missionary to reach them with the Gospel, because even though it's only a small generational gap, there are major cultural issues that you might not even be aware of.

[b]Acquire the fire post 3.[/b]

I find it ironic that one person's passion for the Lord is another person's sin.

Where in the bible does it say that rock music is sinful! You made that decision. There are fifty fifty camps on both sides of the issue, don't let it stumble you in your faith!

Believe this, when we get to heaven, some of the remnant is going to have had tatoos and piercings and have listend to rock music... and some of your good church friends might not be there!

The bible is clear, it's not about what we put on the outside, it's about our heart!

This is a cultural issue, not a theological issue... the Christian youth culture's music is loud, and agressive, but often filled with passionate cries for God's glory! I've read threads on this same forum that lament that the church doesn't cry out for revival, well here they're crying!

Some of the most intellegent, loving, biblically upstanding people i've met have been clad in leather and grungy t-shirts. I've also met a lot of proud, arrogant and obnoxious people in traditional church settings who I'd rather not have met.

I was reaching out to an indie-rock guy recently and I considered the reception that he'd get at my church, considering that he smokes, has tatoos and plays in a secular band. I ended up not bring him when I had the chance and now he doesn't want to go to any church at all.

The fact of the matter is that our churches are turning these people away because we aren't effective cross-cultural ministers. We want them to change into 'us' before they set foot in our doors... and if by chance they do come, we expect that when they accept christ they'll give up their music and cloths too... when it was their heart that needed changing, not their boots.

[b]Acquire the fire post 4.[/b]

Sorry Paul, I've got to call you out on this:
{PaulWest Quote} Dear brother, I understand your culture just fine - and I tell you it has no place in God's church. I understand that modern culture, and the spirit it espouses is ungodly superficial, and at utter enmity with God's holiness. Your generation will reap what it sows, Ben. Your abhorrence of all that is pure and lovely and humble diffuses through modern youth groups like a noxious stench. I see first-hand the covetous cliques in youth fellowships, the strutting, the vast identity crisis of not knowing who they are in Christ. The totally dependancy on music and beats to get into God's supposed presence. And I see the spirit of this culture usurping the Holy Spirit's rightful role of mentorship: instead of God, the culture influences the way kids dress, their mannerisms, etc. And I see this spirit typified in bands like Skillet. {quote end}

Sounds awefully like: Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

Even like these young Christians who don't like the 'right' kind of music... who are going to hell because they don't know how to be 'humble like me.'

Funny thing is, this is how a lot of Christian rock music sounds: "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

[b]Acquire the fire post 6.[/b]

Cheap grace is the number one export of the American Church... don't blame a few muscicians for offering an alternative market for the same product.

[b]Acquire the fire post 7[/b]

Yes, all those preachers you just mentioned do speak against 'entertainment' and 'rock music' but they also rebuke sleeping churches and hypocritical believers at least five times as much -it's like saying 'well Jesus's ministry was all about feeding people.' No it wasn't, he fed people a couple of times but that's not the whole thrust of his ministry, the same can be said for any of those speakers and should be able to be said of us as well.

I don't personally like POD, I don't like any music that I can't understand the lyrics unless it's actually in a different language.

In my car I have a couple CDs, Keith Green, Cannonball Aderly (jazz), BB King, Vivaldi, The OC Supertones and Five Iron Frenzy.

Most of the time I listen to Keith, but recently I've been listening to a lot more Five Iron Frenzy... their music is upbeat (which I need right now) and scriptural.

When I first came to Christ I hade a gotee and a trench coat and cut off shorts and boots and chains and all that stuff. I kept wearing those things and slowely shed them one by one, not because I was told to (although I was told to button up my shirt more) but because I felt led to personally. I honestly don't think wearing an of that was sinful, I think it was just part of my youth and part of the culture I was involved in. Of course I was never into drinking or doing drugs which is a big part of that culture, so for me the cloths had no connection to those activities -i did skateboard though.

Right now as I type this I'm wearing a pair of khakis, an eddie bauer sweater, and bass shoes. I don't have any bracelets or necklaces or earings or any of that on... I was never told to dress like this, I do it because it's more comfortable for me right now -that and the ministry I work for won't let me wear jeans. These cloths certainly don't make me any more Christian than when I wore my punk rock garb.

[b]Acquire the fire post 12[/b]

Let's just back up here. I'm gonna bring some Spiritual Authority into the fold.

Brother Andrew talks about this specifically in his book, 'Light Force.' He talks about the fact that there are divisions, not just among denominations, but also within denominations over things like worship music, or praise music.

Brother Andrew is getting along in his years... his observation? He said that the youth were generally more likely to give ground on this issue than the adults... that he saw more maturity among the young than the old. It's a total shame, but I can see it here right now.

Those kids are flashing gang signs, well guess what, that's not against Christianity, that's part of the urban youth culture. That's like telling a southerner not to like fried chicken!

Most african american kids will flash signs even though most of them aren't in gangs... it's part of how they identify themselves. Is there anything in the bible that says that you can't make a sign with your hands to tell people which coast you live on? You're telling a person he's a sinner for something he's not sinning.

Let's get this straight, fraternities and sororities are gangs by the definition that most african americans use to define gangs. The ELKS club is a gang by most definitions as well... some of our churches are even gangs.

We may find that Jesus would be more comfortable hanging out with gang-members than with our khaki clad congregation.

God needs cross-cultural missionaries! You're never going to reach out to someone by telling them they have to stop being black to be a Christian. You're never going to get anywhere by telling someone that their culture at home is incompatible with Christianity when our own culture is as equally far away from biblical Christianity.

[b]Acquire the fire post 14[/b]

I'm not sure about this... but are we supposed to judge others? Are we supposed to judge them on their appearance? Do we even know what fruits these three young men have in their lives.

I remember Leonard Ravenhill once saying, 'The way that we know that we are being sanctified, we are easy to live with.' These three guys look like they'd be a lot of fun to live with... maybe not all smiles, but I bet we'd have a lot more genuine fellowship than I might have with some of the other saints on this forum.

You won't hear this one on the radio, and you won't hear this in church either...

Brave Saint Saturn - Under Bridges {youtube -music only)

Yesterday while walking
Beneath an overpass
I saw the figure of Jesus
Standing barefoot on broken glass

His beard was graying
Smell of urine filled the air
Asking if I had some change
Anything that I could spare

Emaciated
His shaking fist balled up
Influenza and pneumonia
Begging God to take his cup

So different from his pictures
Breathing air through yellowed tubes
Jesus Christ, dying of AIDS
Can look right through you

And all have hated
Crucified and walked away
Savior of the prostitutes
Drunkards, rapists, and the gays

Under Bridges,
With hands raised
From the ghettos
They praise His name

Broken, crippled
In the dark of night
Raise your voices
To Jesus Christ

[b] The truth about paul post 1 [/b]

Yesterday I called Paul out in the ATF thread. Let me just say that I do not take back any of what I said yesterday.

Paul was out of line... so far this week I've been accused of having no faith because I couldn't heal my grandmother who was dying (in the healing thread) and being an attendant of satan for listening to rock music (in the ATF thread).

My faith is between me and Jesus, I really don't need people telling me that I'm not saved because of my preference in music.

Paul was out of line... but let's look at this scripturally. When the APOSTLE Paul refused to take Mark with him and got in a tussle with Barnabus over it -it was Paul that was at fault... Mark had genuinely wanted to serve and had a change of heart, but Paul couldn't extend grace to him.

In the same way, Paul West is not above fault either -his heart is big, but in this situation it's too small.

Earlier in the ATF thread I said that we needed cross-cultural ministers... these are people that can discern what is of Satan, and what is simply the culture of man. In this case I don't think that Paul has full discernment when it comes to modern youth culture and is ready to condemn it all because he doesn't understand it.

Mateo Ricci became Chinese in order to win Chinese to Christ... he wore the cloths, spoke the language, studied confucian philosophy -he spent years preparing himself to bridge that gap, and when he did the Lord poured out his favor on it.

We need someone who's willing to find out what there is in urban youth culture that's worth embracing for the sake of spreading the Gospel, and what is genuinely evil -but to blanket a whole culture with condemnation because of our narrow mind and narrow heart is not how we're going to bridge that cultural divide and win them to Christ.

You can't tell a young african american that he has to stop being black to be a Christian -he's not going to, and can't give up some of the things we'd like him to, things which the bible never says that they must give up, but that we have decided are satanic by our own legalistic attitudes.

I have heard Paul say some very wise and very spiritual and scriptural things in the past, but on this he was wrong -way wrong.

[b] I know a little about ATF [/b]

Actually, I think events like Aquire the Fire are more for maintaining the status quo. The fact of the matter is I'm in touch with different ministries on a daily basis and there aren't many organizations that are blazing a new trail, most of them are just trying to keep weeds from growing over the ones that were blazed in revivals past -usually without much success.

Aquire the Fire is mostly for kids who are already involved in church, in order to inspire them to go deeper in their spiritual walk or consider missions -or just to think that its ok to be a Christian and to be a youth.

You're right, we need to take the cross into other cultures, but we don't necessarily need to bring our hymn books or liturgies... they need the cross, not our church culture or white middle class suburban culture.

People need Jesus! I'm not watering down anything, i'm trying to purify the Gospel.

Keith Green was looked on as satanic thirty years ago because he played rock music... by our standards in thirty more years the rock bands of today will seem tame. So a God that is timeless isn't going to see them through our eyes, he's looking for the hearts of people, not listening to the rythm of the music.

If we went back a hundred years and tried to sing some of our modern praise music, even the good Christ ordained kind that everyone in this forum can agree upon -we'd probably be shouted off the stage, because that music would be considered devil worship.

We need to realize that our preferences in music are not biblical, they're personal. Yes, when a band is seeking prestige and is full of pride then we should discourage that... but a lot of Christian bands are not... and a lot of Christian preachers are. So we need to be careful to avoid blanket condemnation.

[b] I know a little about ATF post #2 [/b]

Please understand me when I say this, for more than two years I fasted from all the music that I loved, rock, punk, classical, jazz... I can't even stand to put on the Christian radio station because they play so many commercials for Christian dating services.

No music is in itself unclean. No instrument is a tool of satan... no genre is inherantly evil. There are proud and arrogant musicians playing every type of music, everything from hymns to ska!

Honestly, one thing that bugs me is when one man or woman in church will sing in a strong vibrato or in a different pitch because they think that they are doing the rest of a congregation a service by sharing their voice -when to me it's like fingernails on a chalk board.

I believe like Dietrich Bonhoeffer that when we lift praises to God our voices should blend together into one voice, where our own identity is lost in the praises being lifted up to God... in so many churches you hear chaos of different voices competing with eachother... at a rock concert when you're singing along with the lead singer you can't hear your voice at all... when everyone is singing it's one glorious noise to the Lord.

There's a lot of selfish individualism in church music in our churches... in rock music I can be alone, together, with God, with others, all at once in one beautiful sound.

Maybe I'm not going to the same Christian concerts as you guys, my two favorite Christian bands have long since broken up to go onto other ministries and raise families... I'd have to go to denver to hear the other one i like, that's a little out of the way.

I'm not imitating anyone's music. There were puritans who refused to listen to classical music -but we've seen past that. There were Christians who condemned William Booth for his music, there were people who were disgusted with Charles Wesley, some people didn't like the Hymns of Fanny Crosby... People thought that Keith Green was a satan worshiper because of his music... time will heal all wounds.

You can choose to condemn it here, but in the future there will be people that consider this music tame and glorifying to God. Frankly I'd rather have been the one who liked Charles Wesley's hymns when they were new than have to look back in retrospect and in humility and admit my small heart and understanding.

This is not to say that Skillet or any one band is Godly, we must discern on a case by case basis, but we should not blanket them with condemnation -we should seek God's heart in the matter.

Some people are told by God not to drink alchohal, but this doesnt' mean that it's a biblical mandate to be a teatotaller! Absolutely not, you're no less of a Christian if you choose to drink than if you abstain. The bible warns us about drunkeness and I think we can apply these things to rock music as well.

The bible warns us against making anything an idol -well that means our job, our ministry, our forum, our wife... it can also mean a rock band... but it doesn't exclusively mean rock bands and rock music, and it certainly doesn't mean that all jobs, ministries, forums, wives and rock bands are idols -that's a grosse perversion of the proper understanding of biblical truth!

[b] I know a little about ATF post #3 [/b]

{Krispy quote}or dressing like a drug dealer {end quote}

Funny, all the big time drug dealers I've ever known have dressed like pretty unassumingly -that way they don't get caught.

Will Smith the actor isn't a drug dealer, but if you'd never seen his television shows or movies and applied your blanket assumptions upon him you'd assume that he was just a crack pusher based on his cloths.

There are plenty of kids who love their bibles and have a heart sold out to Jesus who wear fubu and diesel. We all want to wear nice things, and sometimes nice things are in the eye of the beholder.

Now I do admit that young women need to dress more modestly, but I've seen Christian parents dress their daughters in skirts and tops that on a girl five or ten years older would be sinful -when you start them on it young it's going to be hard to explain to them why they have to start dressing differently later.

Neither of the two girls in the picture on the other thread appeared to be wearing anything that just screamed -sin! I've seen girls playing piano at churches for worship service wearing less than that!

The Message: Are we still judging these people by that one picture… it’s definitely already been a thousand words!

[b] I know a little about ATF post #3 [/b]

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

Socrates (470-399 BC)

It's frustrating when you're surrounded by seemingly intellegent and spiritual people... and you lay a burden of your heart before them and they scorn you.

I am dropping it, that's my commentary... maybe there will be an unabridged version later. I'm just kidding -but I hope you understand that I am seriously burdened for these young men and women... I want to use whatever 'means' are available to bring them into the Kingdom. Not cheap grace, but genuine cross-cultural missions.

iansmith wrote:
-but I hope you understand that I am seriously burdened for these young men and women.

we need more people whit that burden brother

I got a bunch of those bibles from pocketpower that I'm gonna be handing out to street kids near the university i used to attend.

Right now i'm praying about real cross-cultural missions, I want to go overseas... and I know that God is showing me how he wants me to train while I'm still here in Seattle.

The message: We need to make our churches places where people become followers of Jesus –not white middle class Americans.

AMEN!!!

KrispyKrittr wrote:
I'm not saying there isnt a place for music. I believe there is... but I believe today's Christian music is seriously flawed by it's being unequally yoked with darkness, and therefore God is not honoring it like He used to.

ahhh!!! ive been trying to say something like that , very well put.

That's wrong, the Apostles did entertain (please take this with a grain of salt).

1. Paul preaching in a Greek philosphy classroom -a lot of people went to these classes to be enlightened, but an equal ammount went to hear people argueing. It's like modern day talk radio.

2. (sorry) Christians made for great show in the colluseum... lions and tigers and christians were a huge hit entertainment wise with the Romans.

3. Jesus was the life of the party... he knew how to have fun, sit down with a bunch of close friends (sinners and prostitutes) eat together over some wine and talk about religious issues. That sounds like Seattle bar culture.

It's not my style to be the trouble maker in these parts, but Ian brother as appaludable as this comment is...

but I hope you understand that I am seriously burdened for these young men and women.

...it is irrelevant to the real problems raised by the older men in this thread.

So how do we discuss this without young people feeling that their entire 'culture' is being judged by a bunch of 'white middle class Christians."

A good friend of mine was recently telling me about some church services at the Korean church he and his wife attend. I asked him if their music, clothing or service is in anyway ethnic or culturally styled. He looked surprise...of course not...except they speak Korean. I asked him then why do we feel that in America every one can't be reached with mere english language, but we have to wear bling bling for the hip hoppers, and have a mullet for the head bangers? And not just with music...we have to have star athletes speak to teen athletes and business execs speak to the businesmen. He answered me without hesitation, "Because in this country, churches have this problem where everyone is worried about what will make men happy, rather then what will make God happy."

I know brothers like Ian and Ben have sincere hearts for unchurched youth. I would want to be careful to never squelch that! Recognizing and exteeming their burden I would still want them to consider these two points.

1) Not every critique offered here is rooted in race or culture.

2) Those who challenge the importance of clothing the gospel in rock or hip hop culture may have also have a burden for youth. In fact their burden may exceed your own.

I mentioned parenting earlier...well there are many fathers today who desperately want to be buddies with their sons. They play their video games, and rock out to their bands, and even hang out with their friends. In my experience these types of fathers may have sincere burdens for their children, but their approach is confused and misguided. They have love but they also are under a bondage to their children's expectations.

There are times when the more mature must save the immature from themselves. Ian and Ben...you are spiritually further along then the lost you have a burden for. Don't let your burden to 'prove' your love for them, bind you to their bondages. We cannot be more charitable to men then we are to God.

This is not a caution against any music style. (I am pretty confident no one in this forum is more eccelctic in musical interests then I am.) This is a caution of equating using cultural references such as clothing and music with being culturally relative. Just as a father is most relevant to his son when he can model the difference...a missionary is most relevant to individuals when they are different from them.

Blessings brothers,

MC

I started this thread to get away from the Ian and Ben bashing... thanks!

Here's where my heart is. I'm a young guy, I'm a follower of Jesus. I know young guys and gals who aren't in a relationship with Jesus -I have a burden for them. I see the things they listen to, the cloths they wear as expressions of their lifestyle, but not an issue of their heart, not attached to their soul. They are in a desperate need for Jesus.

Paul said he'd become a gentile to reach the gentiles... well I'm not putting back on my punk rock clothing, but I'm definitely not going to tell anyone that he has to dress differently to accept Jesus -unless those cloths are clearly sexual or satanic. If it's a hip hop outfit, or skater cloths then I'm not going to say anything.

Let their spirit condemn them... but first let them hear about Jesus and recieve the spirit.

but I'm definitely not going to tell anyone that he has to dress differently to accept Jesus -unless those cloths are clearly sexual or satanic

This here is the thing that gets me...sure, anyone who has half a sense of discernment can call out those things that are obvious. I think the biggest thing in Christian rock is the "not-so-obvious" things that seasoned, tried and tested men of God are more able to discern.

There is a big sense of spirituality in a lot of the "ATF" bands that were previously mentioned, but like many are contending, they are shrouded in darkness. I listen to the Christian radio station in Edmonton and I seriously have to turn off the radio sometimes, and call the station to ask why some of the music is being aired at all. And that's usually BECAUSE of the lyrics. Not to mention the many sensual beats and near exact imitation of the music from, absolutely filthy, worldly songs.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but, kids aren't totally sheltered from the disgusting things in secular music, are they? Maybe it's just me, but when I hear a Christian band's "new" music that I've heard the tune somewhere before, I'm usually flooded with the imagery and lyrics of the originator. I'd bet donuts to dollars that it affects kids even more. The secular music is a lot worse than when I was in school.

Paul Washer said something like, North American doctrine is based, not on the Bible, but on Christian lyrics written by boys who know nothing about the Bible, and "Christian t-shirts".

The more I eat of the Word, the more that I see this to be blatantly true.

Based on Paul Washer's age and his claim to have been friends with Leonard Ravenhill I assume that he was there in texas around the time of Keith Green or shortly thereafter... a lot of those people were strongly influenced by Keith Green.

Now I'm not standing up and saying that Skillet is today's Keith Green... because Keith did a lot of stuff that no band today would or could do to share the Gospel. But Keith walked, talked and acted in a lot of places like 'the world' which many people pointed out to him... and where the Spirit convicted him he changed those things, but there were a lot of things he didn't change.

Certainly his music caused a similar reaction to the church in his day, but those that were discerning (like Loren Cunningham, Leonard Ravenhill, Richard Dawsom, Winkie Pratney, David Wilkerson etc.) embraced Keith because his heart and life were sold out to Jesus.

Keith still worse the cloths of his peers, he still kept the haircut and beard of his peers, he still largely talked and joked like his secular peers... but he was different and no one can deny that.

In the ways that Keith was different he was a walking testimony of Jesus. I think Paul washer is saying more that 'it isn't what you wear or what you listen to that makes you a Christian -it's who you are!'

There are plenty of people who dress modestly and act gentlemanly who are slaves to sin -the same is contrast... there are people who dress like gangsters and rock stars who are sold out for Jesus. They are participating in this culture, but their lives are testimonies that they are ambassadors for the King of Kings.

Hi Ian,

I have been reading through these posts for the last few days and have a few comments. I love your zeal and passion for the lost of your generation. I commend that and it is a challenge to me. I am 36 and was saved about 12 years ago. I was a big metallica, pearl jam etc fan. Honestly, I don't feel comfortable with alot of these Christian bands that work in that genre. It just reminds me too much of olden days and I want to think on whatsoever things are pure.

Although I am not saying that these bands aren't pure, they give me a very uncomfortable feeling. Maybe I am the weaker vessle. I am different in the sense that I love worship songs and I love some of the bands, Casting Crowns for example. But I am so in awe of God when I hear songs from a Charity Gospel Sing in accapella. No music, just voices raised to God. Something to be said of the peace of it.

All that being said, today someone posted a thread to lift up Paul West, he did not do it himself.

This thread was started by you and I perceive you to be vigorously defending yourself as if you have been wronged. Sometimes, if we are wronged, it's best just to be wronged. 1 Cor 10:12 says b]Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."[/b]

You mentioned Zac Poonen. I love him and have been to see him preach numerous times. Listen to his sermon called Brokenness. I am sure it's on this site. It blessed me and convcited me. He says we need not get upset when people say things that hurt us, it shows our love for ourselves. If we love the Lord with all our heart, soul and might, we will have no room in our hearts to love ourselves to be offended.

If my perceptions have been wrong, please forgive me. If I'm 5% right grow from the 5%. If I'm 100% wrong, ignore me. :-)

Lord bless,

Sean