The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

Beloved I hope to generate an awareness of this topic as I know it is close to the heart of our Lord. Why don't a majority of the Jews Believe? Paul said that he wished he could be accursed from Christ for his people the Jews to be saved. I propose a series of statements to spark an interest in this subject as it has been widely ignored in Church history; it is this:Jesus was a Jew. The Gospels were set in Isreal with Jewish characters looking for a Jewish Messiah. Every author of the scriptures was Jewish and it can be argued that Luke was 1/2 Jew. Nearly every one of Jesus' followers were Jews. All of the disciples were Jews. There was not a single Gentile mentioned as being saved before Acts 10. The Gospel was carried to the ends of the earth originally by Jews. Much of the confusion concerning the whole topic of election is furthered by the whole misunderstanding that Paul sought to establish in the hearts of the Gentiles that they were not an "after thought" of God. The Jews already believed they were the elect of God- the Gentiles needed that to be emphasized to them. Who really were the Pharisees (Perushim)? What really was the upper room? What are tzitzit? Who were the Galileans? Who are the Goyim? What is a both kol? How many gentiles are mentioned in the New Testament before Acts Chapter 10? Who were the Zealots and Sacarii? What is the "Oral Law"? What is the Talmud? What is the Mishna? Who was Rabbi Akiba (Akiva)? Who was Simon Bar kochba? Pretty Good Start! Any Interest?God Bless and Best Regards In Christ,-Robert

I propose a series of statements to spark an interest in this subject as it has been widely ignored in Church historyYes, Praise God Robert! I do hope we can grasp this, it is truly a incredible thing that we have largely westernized the faith and forgotten that we are the branches. Art Katz has been a tremendous help in drawing my attention back to this fact, if you haven't you might check out: http://www.benisrael.orgArt is a Jewish believer for those who are unfamiliar with him. Astute. Intelligent and a man after God's own heart if I might be so bold to say.You got my interest.Where do we start?Mike

Bro Mike,Thanks for the interest. I think I saw a quote you made from the Talmud on the cannibalism thread. I rolled out and kept my word not to return. I appreciate your added Talmudic insight- as I am in full agreement with you. One of the things that knowing the Jewish Roots of the faith does is emphasize Jeremiah 31:33 as the New Covenant that we are now under. "I will put my law (Torah) into the hearts and in their minds will I write it..." We are grossly missing this in the Church. When I say that passage or make reference to God's law on our hearts people often assume "personal convictions"- when it is not that at all. Personal convictions change from person to person- while God's law is no respector of persons and the "Spirit of the Law" is the same for everyone. God's nature and His word do not change. The conduct of a born again believer will always be in harmony with God's word- if they are led by the Spirit of God. The Spirit and the Word always agree (i know you know this). And though the Law of Moses was a national law for Israel it embodies the personality of a holy and righteous God. Art Katz did an awesome job describing profaning the things of God. Yes, I'm afraid, our liberty in the eyes of the Jews has become a cloak of malice. Did you know that Jews (so I have heard told) hold the human body so precious in Israel that when a bomb blows a person up they try to use the highest and most dignified means of treating the remains? We have lost that concept because (in some ways) we have believed that the "body" is evil and confuse the Greek Word sarx as meaning body when it often means "sin nature." I can walk either side of the issue personally and say "the body is tainted with sin" and yet still believe "It was still made in the image of God." On both accounts I see truth. I heard a guy tell us a few weeks ago that God directed him to read a New Age book because "to the pure all things are pure." That is insane! Knowing the Jewish roots of the faith will get us a new respect for God and the things of God and will strip us of the tendency to profane things just because we have "liberty." Lets start with a book by Marvin Wilson called "Our Father Abraham" and we can work from there. These is so much to say and so little time...God Bless and Brotherly Love,-Robert

Did you know that Jews (so I have heard told) hold the human body so precious in Israel that when a bomb blows a person up they try to use the highest and most dignified means of treating the remains?I think you are referring to the acts of kindness squadsI think it may be a providence that I am going to be away for a few days. It will give you time to start without lots of interruptions. ;-) I respect Art Katz as a man of integrity with a passion for God and a willingness for painful honesty. I have met him on a couple of occasions; the first was when he came to speak at a meeting in my home over twenty years ago, the second time was about 5 years ago when he came to speak in the church to which I now belong. He is bold and vulnerable, without formal style; all these things I love in the man. His theological views on the matter of Israel are another matter; I doubt that we could be further apart.This could be an 'interesting' thread. I understand that an ancient chinese curse is 'may you live in interesting times'. ;-) I trust we shall be able to talk together in good humour, mutual respect and that the thread will not be 'interesting' in the 'chinese' sense.I must admit to a quiet groan when I saw the thread arise. The topic has the power to be extremely divisive. But perhaps it is time... Let's be diligent to maintain the unity of the Spirit and be willing, often, to resort to that wonderful little phrase of Paul's 'we know in part". It will be interesting to see if my reputation for 'balance' can survive this thread. :-o

I was smiling at your post brother because of the many times I have sat in class and wanted to get up and walk out and watched other people strait get up and fold their books and walk out the door in disdain. In time I learned what was happening and it didn't bother me anymore. We have a lot of "concepts" about the Jews that we are so often in "love" with and say things like "we love the Jews... they're God's chosen people." I learned that what we really were in love with was the "idea" of the Jews and not the Jews themselves (how many Christians have heard the term Hassidic?). I learned I knew relatively nothing about them-- I only had my distorted concept of who they were. Bro. Jerry Feldman never tried to console people when they got up to walk out; it was almost like the rich young ruler. Jewish people I have known are generally strait talkers- I think its because of the raucous way that they sat around the dinner table with their doors open- inviting the neighbors to join their dinner conversations. They get loud-- but seem to get over it. The question for the first 10 years of the Church was "can a gentile be saved?" As the entire Church was Jews. Why has the Church not asked the question as to how that could be possible? The short answer is "The Jews rejected Jesus." How could this be when Christianity began as a sect of the Jews called the Nazarenes (Notzrim)? One of something like 27 different sects of Judaism in the 1st century CE.I have a pretty good sketch of what has happened. Thats what I hope to discuss. We have to consider that they must know of their Messiah and not our western version of Him. They will reject that and for good reason. The JEWS were faithful to take the Gospel to the Gentiles-- how are we doing in returning the favor? I personally was able to reach a Jewish man on his death bed with the Gospel in a Nursing Home about 3 years ago. I thought all my studies may have been for that one man's soul. Maybe it can find a lodging place here. Most of what I will tell you- you have likely never heard. many of the issues are not even known in the Church. And it will be my prayer, that as we find that balance in wading through the facts and holding to that which is good-- we will at the very least understand that God has not cast away his people, Paul's kinsman according to the flesh. Romans 11:16-20... if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.I have been careful to "Take Heed" as Paul admonished us. We are grafted in- they are the natural branches. They CAN be grafted back in. did the Jews reject Yeshua? Some did- some did not. The controlling leadership certainly did (for the most part). But I ask a riviting question... did the Gentiles ALL accept Christ? Nay. Some did and some did not. God forgive us for our teachings of dispensationalism that have made us believe that the Jews will be saved in the end... when the Bible teaches that ALL who reject Christ have no hope. God Bless and Much Brotherly love,-Robert

Hi Robertwhat is the root?

Thanks Robert,I am looking forward to learning. My knowledge is certainly lacking in this foundational truth.As you stated:We have a lot of "concepts" about the Jews that we are so often in "love" with and say things like "we love the Jews... they're God's chosen people." I learned that what we really were in love with was the "idea" of the Jews and not the Jews themselvesAndI have a pretty good sketch of what has happened. Thats what I hope to discuss. We have to consider that they must know of their Messiah and not our western version of Him. They will reject that and for good reason. The JEWS were faithful to take the Gospel to the Gentiles-- how are we doing in returning the favor? I personally was able to reach a Jewish man on his death bed with the Gospel in a Nursing Home about 3 years ago. I thought all my studies may have been for that one man's soul. Maybe it can find a lodging place here. Most of what I will tell you- you have likely never heard. many of the issues are not even known in the Church. And it will be my prayer, that as we find that balance in wading through the facts and holding to that which is good-- we will at the very least understand that God has not cast away his people, Paul's kinsman according to the flesh. Indeed, and as Ron alluded to, it's about time that we began discussing this. It has been pressing on me that very little attention is being given to the Jewish people in modern Christianity (At least in this corner of the world) though The Book is filled with 'our ancestors' and 'our heritage'.There is so many aspects to discuss and likely it will encompass a broad range of issues and raise many questions.In reference to the Jewish man that you witnessed to, I can only wonder at the difficulty that may escape many of us in all that entails.Yesterday I read a testimony that I can only guess is all to common and have heard of similar story's of the additional hardships that are unique to those of Jewish tradition who have come to faith in their Messiah. Being disowned by your own family not the least of their anguish. Can we imagine that?Hope this is within the realm of what you wanted to begin discussing here. You lead Brother and we will follow, see if we can keep the sheep in the pasture without wandering off to far.Mike

Beloved,Once we trace the history of the early Church up to 135 CE I think we would conclude much differently than post 135 when the Church began drifting from Jerusalem and towards Athens and then Rome. However we decide, we must conclude based on the clear teaching of Romans 11 that we are "wild" branches and grafted in as Gentiles. That is a very sobering thought that escapes our minds. Since I began diving into the "Messianic's" claims personally as any good Berean should (amen?); I found that the half has yet been told. I would get upset and think something like this "If that is true then the Gentiles hijacked the whole thing!" Then I would go to the study library at the huge Nazerene Theological Seminary and check their sources and guess what... I went out of their almost hostile, shaking my head at some of the things that were written by some of the early church fathers (ante nicene). They didn't have to convince me... it was in plain black and white and I was sorely ashamed for and angered at the early Gentile Church! Then I found Luther's tractate about the Jews (which didn't he die a few weeks after writing that? I'll check it out.) and it burnt a lot of my thoughts about him. What ever the root is the Jews are "naturally" growing from it- we have been grafted in contrary to nature. So how is it that if we are grafted in, we the "Gentile Church," could be the root? So little time....God Bless and Best Regards in Christ,-Robert

Hi Robert,you write What ever the root is the Jews are "naturally" growing from it- we have been grafted in contrary to nature. So how is it that if we are grafted in, we the "Gentile Church," could be the root? I could answer this question for you, but it is absolutely essential to the whole of Paul's argument that you know what the 'root' is. If you have not decided what the 'root' is whatever conclusions you come to are just going to be 'castles in the air'. It's a little bit like someone giving me a route which says I'm not sure where you start but follow the directions and you will get there. No you won't, not unless you know where you are starting from. Its not a trick question, by the way. The answer is there in Romans.

Hello again brother,Yes, I agree. The theological road we have taken as Gentiles has sure taken us off track. The short answer is of coarse:I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen (Romans 9:1-6)Jesus Christ (Yeshua) is the ONLY true Israel as HE is the promise, the covenant, the lamb, the priest, etc. That is pretty clear; but why do the Gentiles now believe the Jews rejected their Messiah and the Gentile Church is now "Israel?" The problem as my studies have led me to see is that God intended that the root remain the root and the remnant of elect Jews would always be the natural branches and the elect Gentiles would be the "grafted in" branches. What we have now is a tree loaded with grafted in (or "taped on" if they are "almost Christians"); but where is the bulk of that remnant? Lets go back to the first century and begin to see it all play out.God Bless,-Robert

Robert writes Jesus Christ (Yeshua) is the ONLY true Israel as HE is the promise, the covenant, the lamb, the priest, etc.I LOVE this statement, although I don’t know why you have chosen to call Him by a name that is never used in the New Testament, not even in Hebrews.You continue That is pretty clear; but why do the Gentiles now believe the Jews rejected their Messiah and the Gentile Church is now "Israel?" The problem as my studies have led me to see is that God intended that the root remain the root and the remnant of elect Jews would always be the natural branches and the elect Gentiles would be the "grafted in" branches. What we have now is a tree loaded with grafted in (or "taped on" if they are "almost Christians"); but where is the bulk of that remnant?There is no such thing as ‘the Gentile church’, nor is there a Jewish church, nor an American church, nor a British church, nor a church of the 21st century, nor tomorrow’s church. There is just one church; the Church of Jesus Christ. Local expressions of that church similarly cannot be gentile, jewish, American, or British. If they are genuine churches they are churches where ‘two’ has become ‘one’.[Eph 2:14] To recognise any other identifying features in a church is to make the error that Peter made when he was roundly rebuked by Paul. Here is a simple multiple choice question, you are only allowed to tick one box; Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 1 Corinthians 10:32 Which group do you belong to?BTW you have still not defined what you mean by the ‘root’. Your statement can make no sense without such a definition.

***PRAYER***Lord I just ask that you would intevene. Father God, why it is that your Church takes such a posture towards each other? Is this the Love by which we are all to be known? Why are your people looking to beat their swords? Why is it that we cannot have a meaningful conversation without people trying to split every hair and exegete every verb and syntax of a mortal mans words? Lord draw your sword I pray and discern the thoughts and intents of the hearts of those who so handily resist any real and meaningful conversation about your people Yisrael! Oh God how my heart aches for this..... After posting this prayer I was convicted to tone it down and realize that its the enemies job to cause us to misunderstand each other and shoot fiery darts into our hearts. We are not wrestling with flesh and blood. God help me be more discerning. Uncle Screwtape and cousin Wormwood are well at work (Screwtape Letters; C.S. Lewis)!

RobertIt is best to pray such prayers behind closed doors.

You would seek to roadblock a thread that He Himself has laid on my heart to bring an awareness of His people the Jews! (I deleted a few sentences that were a little strong). It was all a misunderstanding. -Robert *****call unto Me and I will answer thee***And answer me He did. Again, I felt quite convicted to tone it down and to apologize for my defensiveness. The enemy likes to sow discord among us and twist words into a mess. I think C.S. Lewis would have called this a letter from uncle Screwtape!

Beloved,Can we realize that we have the identity of Jesus Christ and there is no need to protect our own? Let us go out of the camp following Him… bearing His reproach, for here we have no continuing city. The lepers were put out of the camp and as we follow Christ and take on His identity we will likewise suffer with Him and suffer similar reproach. Why the fear? Why the concern? The truth will set us free and so long as we tell the truth about these issues as well as we know them we can have a fuller understanding of these things. How bad does the enemy hate the Jews? (6,000,000 dead in WWII). I am of German descent (Wurtz?) and I have known German WWII veterans who denied what happened with the Jews. Many of them see the cross (oh how unfortunate) as a sword dipped in 2000 years of their blood. The history speaks for itself. I personally believe the enemy would do anything to stop the Church from knowing the plight and history of the Jews and their relationship to the Church and getting to a place where they can WITNESS to them effectively. Knowing the history allows you to be sensitive and knowledgeable to what they already know and it helps understand the obstacles ahead. Do you have any Jewish friends? That is what this thread was started for. Not to debate. When you don’t fight the real enemy you will fight each other. I am not hear to debate or bicker or argue. I have a God birthed desire to see the Jews won to Christ and I know I have some info that you can use to make it a reality in your circle of relationships. God bless and Much brotherly love,-Robert

RobertI have wept my way through Auschwitz (twice) and Mydanek too. You will not need to instruct me on the abominable treatment of the Jewish race. But if you tell me that Christianity ought to be more Jewish you will have to give chapter and verse.This is a forum not a pulpit, and you will need to be willing to prove your points. 10 times in the Acts it tells us that Paul 'dialogued'. Conversation and discussion are not one way streets. I hold no animosity towards you or your views; God who knows the thoughts and intents of our hearts, is my witness. But you will not serve your cause by increasing the volume if your arguments are weak.As I may not get back to this thread for a while I will answer my own question. The 'root' referred to by Paul is 'Abraham-type faith'; not a racial progenitor. This was the original obligation of the physical descendents of Abraham. They were required to be circumcised AND to walk in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.[Rom 4:12] The natural branches were broken off because of unbelief and can be grafted back in by faith, not because they are physical descendents of Abraham. Likewise people from a Gentile background are grafted in because of faith and can be removed if they do not believe.In Rom 3:22 and 10:12 tells us that there is 'no difference between Jew and Greek'. The church of Jesus Christ is not an extension of the Jewish church but 'one new man'. In the 'church' the dividing hedge that separated Israel as a nation has been broken down. It is neither Jewish nor Gentile. His is OUR peace who hath made of twain, one new man.

Bro. Ron,I am in no wise here to convince anyone that they should be more Jewish. These things enrich our understanding and give the right context of the early Church. We are and will remain in the calling wherewith the Lord has called us. Is any man circumcised...I would only add to your comments concerning the "root" that you have described what I would call the "how" or "what" and I described the "who." We are heirs of the righteousness of God that is by faith. For the promise was not unto seeds but unto His Seed, which was Christ (Galatians 3:16). And the Israel of God are those who are in Christ through faith (... you bear not the root, but the root you). Who was that faith in? It was in the promised seed (which was Christ). So we see then it is not faith in our faith... but faith in the promised Seed which was Christ.There is certainly only ONE Lord, ONE faith, and ONE baptism, etc. My "Gentile Church" (in quotes) caused the confusion admittedly. What I mean is the Church that is almost exclusively Gentile in 2004, while it was 100% Jewish in 40 CE. It has nothing to do with ethnicity- though make no mistake, I believe God desires for the true Israel of God to be (as they have been) a light of the Glory of God in the earth. How do you explain their perseverance otherwise? This does not mean that God is a respector of persons. But we must realize that the Jews need to hear the Gospel in a way that they will receive it. My plans were to go out on a limb and demonstrate BOTH sides as for why the majority of Jews are so far from Christ. To the Jew first then to the Gentile... hmmmm. not in our generation. Obviously you have been in some major discussions about this before that have caused you to be somewhat cautious about the post. I appreciate that. I also would prefer not to become the whipping boy :-D for any ill feelings from past arguments. I have been there. Not fun! In other words, I wish not to be a point of contact with which to vent differences with Messianic Judaism. They are who they are. I am a Christian (Pentecostal) and wanting to see Revival and souls saved in ALL camps. :-)I apologize and repent OPENLY and PUBLICLY for coming across too strong. I don't want to preach. I don't want to argue. YOU Bro. Ron have the knowledge to help make this thread more meaningful than I ever could alone. Lets work together shall we? Were bretheren. Maybe I was acting a bit like James and making a case for the Jews for a minute. But we can balance each other. God Bless and Much Brotherly Love,-Robert

Robertyou write Obviously you have been in some major discussions about this before that have caused you to be somewhat cautious about the post. No I haven't been in major (or even minor) discussions but I have been doing some major thinking and meditating on the topic for several decades.As regards your apology...2Cor 2:10,11. In other words, as much as it lies with me I forgive with all my heart. I am away now for a few days so I won't be able to contribute or interrupt. :-P

Perhaps we can get back on track here and since we are talking about roots and branches please lets remember that the fruit of the Spirit is love.what is the root?In studying this matter I found the following from Vincents Word Studies on Romans 11:16-17;Both the first-fruits and the root represent the patriarchs (or Abraham singly, compare Rom_11:28). The holiness by call and destination of the nation as represented by its fathers (first-fruits, root) implies their future restoration, the holiness of the lump and branches...The Jewish nation is a tree from which some branches have been cut, but which remains living because the root (and therefore all the branches connected with it) is still alive. Into this living tree the wild branch, the Gentile, is grafted among the living branches, and thus draws life from the root. The insertion of the wild branches takes place in connection with the cutting off of the natural branches (the bringing in of the Gentiles in connection with the rejection of the Jews). But the grafted branches should not glory over the natural branches because of the cutting off of some of the latter, since they derive their life from the common root. ?The life-force and the blessing are received by the Gentile through the Jew, and not by the Jew through the Gentile. The spiritual plan moves from the Abrahamic covenant downward, and from the Israelitish nation outward?In Christ,Ron

THE Jewish Freedom Movement by Robert Wurtz IIMerton Hengel in his book "the Zealots" sheds some light on the scene in the time of Jesus through the works of Josephus and others concerning the unrest that existed in the area of Galilee and other places. As far as I know, the term "Zealot" is first mentioned in the New Testament Gospels. It is found first here before any other writings. Simon the "Zealot" was one of Jesus' disciples. The Zealots were founded by Judas the Galilean and Zadok (Saddok) the priest. Judas of Galilee is mentioned to have been killed by an uprising in Acts 5:37. The "prototype" of the Zealots was Phinehas (Numbers 25:6-13). The Galileans had a reputation for their rebellion against Rome and had a certain accent that gave them away when they spoke (Mark 14:70). When we talk about resistance movements I think we can list at least the :Galileans, Sacarii, and Zealots. Some blur them together, but it is hard to go back and accurately reconstruct each movement. VOLITILE was the situation in Israel because of these movements. Some of them believed to pay tribute to Ceasar was paramount to paying him a "tithe" and therefor acknowledging him as deity. That, to them, was a breach of the 1st Commandment. Remember the questions about paying tribute directed towards Jesus? That was part of it. Zealots and Galileans hated the publicans. They collected taxes for Rome and were considered traitors. Imagine how awesome Jesus would have had to have been to keep the peace between all of those men when Matthew was a Publican?God Bless.-Robert