We Need to Talk About Peace

We Need to Talk About Peace
by Scott Via

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"We are called to be Christ-like, and to follow Christ's teachings. But
we avoid talking about it and agree to disagree. We need to discuss it
very openly, and do it peacefully."
** ** ** ** ** **

I grew up in the Mennonite Church. I heard peace taught as a kid, but
just thought that was one of those Mennonite things. I went into the
Marine Corps at age 21, mostly because I was looking for adventure and
something meaningful to do. I knew the church wouldn't like it. They put
me on the inactive members list. I don't know if it was because I went
into the military or because I wasn't there anymore, but I understood.

After I got out of the Marines, I came straight back to Virginia. After
some time, I became more active in the church again. I read the
Confession of Faith and the referenced Bible verses. At the same time, I was
observing what was going on around me ?the fervor for war. I saw it on
TV, and I saw it among everyday people I met. And I reflected on what I
had experienced in the Marine Corps. I talked with my grandmother and
others. I came to finally realize that this belief is not just a
Mennonite idea. The more I read, the more I became convicted.

I am now fully convinced that a Christian cannot go to war. Peace is a
theme all through the Bible. We are called to be Christ-like, and to
follow Christ's teachings. But we avoid talking about it and agree to
disagree. We need to discuss it very openly, and do it peacefully. Our
beliefs can't be determined by personalities like Rush Limbaugh, or
politicians. Some Christians think I'm crazy. I've actually found that
veterans who are Christian are usually easier to talk to, because they have
seen what war is like.

I'm proud that our country has been gracious enough in providing the
opportunity for conscientious objection in recent times. I?d like to talk
to anyone who is now considering going into the military, whether or
not they are a Christian. If they are a Christian, we can study the
biblical teachings. I encourage them to not sign up until they have had time
to give it some thought and prayer. Even if someone is not Christian,
I'd like to talk to them before they go. Even if I don't talk them out
of it, I can at least give them some warning about what it is really
like.

I think that our Mennonite churches need to stop being so quiet about
peace. If we all are God's children, then we need to stop following what
politics and TV tell us. We need to concentrate within our
congregations and communities to be a witness like Jesus Christ asks us to be.

Scott Via

Lynside Mennonite Church, Lyndhurst, Va.

Please post responses or questions at
www.thirdway.com/talk

Any comments? Sounds like a good idea to me, and
I speak as one who stoped a bullet in 1966.

pastorfrin

I am now fully convinced that a Christian cannot go to war

Some of America’s founding fathers were Christians. They defended their country. It was called a war.

America has had a lot of Christians serve in its military over the years. I would hate to say that America’s founding fathers and patriot saints that answered the call of duty and those that were drafted were not Christians.

I’m all for peace.

I believe a military is necessary, our country (USA) would not have enjoyed the amount of peace it has had without one, but I also hate war.

Police officers are forced to kill at times.

Kill or be killed. Soldiers also face this predicament.

To have peace one must prepare for war.

We have had wars on this planet for thousands of years. I wish it was not true, but it is a fact. I believe there will always be some kind of war.

I pray for peace.

I am troubled by America’s reasoning for some of the wars it has waged.

I know a Christian that is in the military. He says it is his mission field.

I would tell anyone to pray long and hard, but to listen to God for direction.

I’m sure you all know the sixth commandment is “thou shall not murder”, not kill.

There is a time for everything under the sun.

To take a life is a terrible thing to live with, we should pray for those who have had to do it.

I don't want war, ever.

I pray for peace.

my 2 cents

TJ

TJ,

I wouldn't say that because you fight in a war you're not a Christian, but I would say look at what Jesus said and take it literally. Why do we take the other stuff in the Sermon on the Mount literally, but not the part about loving your enemies.

God has given the government the authority to punish evil doers, but Christians should be in the business of giving life not taking it.

Jordan

HomeFree89 wrote:
TJ,

I wouldn't say that because you fight in a war you're not a Christian, but I would say look at what Jesus said and take it literally. Why do we take the other stuff in the Sermon on the Mount literally, but not the part about loving your enemies.

God has given the government the authority to punish evil doers, but Christians should be in the business of giving life not taking it.

Jordan

Just because one is forced to shoot, and possibly kill someone, in defense of your family or country does not mean you hate them.

You can love your enemy, and still be compelled to stop them.

There are many old timers that will tell you they never hated the Nazis, but they felt it necessary to stop them.

I have an 87 year old preacher friend that said he said a prayer for them every night when he was in WW II. He hated what they were doing…not them.

TJ

Are you talking about pacifism? or nonresistance? There is a difference. Perhaps if you were to clarify it, one could have a profitable discussion.

ginnyrose

I agree with Krispy. We should not look for battles but we should never fail to protect the innocent.

Does our country always fight good and just wars? That can be debated.

Somewhere else I hope :-)

tjservant wrote:

HomeFree89 wrote:
TJ,

I wouldn't say that because you fight in a war you're not a Christian, but I would say look at what Jesus said and take it literally. Why do we take the other stuff in the Sermon on the Mount literally, but not the part about loving your enemies.

God has given the government the authority to punish evil doers, but Christians should be in the business of giving life not taking it.

Jordan

Just because one is forced to shoot, and possibly kill someone, in defense of your family or country does not mean you hate them.

You can love your enemy, and still be compelled to stop them.

There are many old timers that will tell you they never hated the Nazis, but they felt it necessary to stop them.

I have an 87 year old preacher friend that said he said a prayer for them every night when he was in WW II. He hated what they were doing…not them.

TJ

Why did Jesus stop Peter from protecting Him? This was a practical outworking of Jesus' teaching that Peter hadn't caught onto.

"Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -Matt. 26:52

Can you really love someone while bombing or shooting them? I'm talking about true love that has a concern for their souls.

Jordan

Brothers and Sisters,
Instead of going by emotions and the teachings of man, let us simply look at the words of Jesus.
Please read them and then read them again. Leave
out what anyone else has said, and listen to what
He is saying. Lets allow the Holy Spirit to teach
us, He is well able.

Matthew 10:1-42
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. [2] Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; [3] Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; [4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: [6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. [8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. [9] Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, [10] Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. [11] And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. [12] And when ye come into an house, salute it. [13] And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. [14] And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. [15] Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
[16] Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. [17] But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; [18] And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. [19] But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. [20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. [21] And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. [22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. [23] But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. [24] The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. [25] It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? [26] Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. [27] What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. [28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. [32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. [33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. [34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
[40] He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. [41] He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. [42] And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 18:33-37
Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? [34] Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me? [35] Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? [36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. [37] Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

What kingdom do we belong to and who is our king?

His Love To All,

pastorfrin

That's really good!

Can you really love someone while bombing or shooting them? I'm talking about true love that has a concern for their souls.

I can not answer as far as military and war are concerned, but his question is of great concern to me. I will answer with all seriousness.

I don’t know. I pray to never personally find out.

I strive, in my walk, to be more like Him. I believe I love all of God’s children.

I would be seriously grieved to ever be responsible for the harm of another, let alone the taking of a life.

I pray this is something I never have to face.

Have you ever been in a situation where your life was in danger from the hand of another?

I have.

How about a situation that involved a friend or family member?

I have.

I was lucky and the situation dissolved before anything as unfortunate as the loss of life occurred.

I was not a Christian at the time of these events.

I know what I was prepared to do then.

I am now a Christian. I believe I love all of God’s Children.

I don’t know that I could watch a love one come to harm without trying to stop it by whatever means necessary.

I pray to never find out.

TJ

I wanted to say that I appreciated pastorfrin's contemplative attitude toward's this subject.

Brethren I feel that we American Christians are at a unique crossroads. There comes a point when 'defending the innocent' slides into defending a way of life...and eventually this may degenerates into a sense of pride that we must live better then other nations even if others must die for this entitlement. I'm not saying where on this slide we are but only that we might not always be able to be the strong that protect others...indeed we may need protection someday. (I wonder if some of those whom America has protected will remember America in darker times.)

Wars have both political and violent elements...two worldy elements that the Church has put increasing hope in to ease their fears of declining...and two elements which will bring tremendous strain on the proclamation of the Church. For my own part I have become wary of political activism, or even political enthusiasm, for the Christian. In the earliest years of the faith the church fathers would have apologetic exchanges with public officals but they themselves would refrain from seeking insider participation...instead being an outside proclamation speaking boldy the light of God's moral law into civil affairs. Some have intended to do this in this country...but many have far exceeded those boundaries.

Contrary to Walter Kronkite's crusade this is not a problem just for the conservative right but also for the left. For instance, Jim Wallace, the leading liberal 'evangelical' in America gave the Democratic repsonse to President Bushes State of the Union adress, and Rick Warren invited Sentaor Obama to speak politically at his church. No more can the Liberal Christian rightfully criticize the conservative Christian of being too "Constantinized". They too ride the back of the beast.

And besides political entanglements that effect the Christian's position on war there is also the comfortableness we Christians show towards many displays of violence in our entertainment culture. This past week there was an Ultimate Fighting Championship event in my hometown...the larget ticket gate ever sold at the Nationwide Arena.. At the end of the bloody knuckle tooth flying event the bruised face-swollen 'champion' was handed the microphone where he triumphantly gave thanks to Jesus Christ 'who died for his sins' and to the American GI 'who dies for his freedom.' I believe this fella (a rather large fella at that!) was a sincere Christian, but such talk makes me think America has become the revival of Roman spirit...and our mainstream Christianity is endanger of becoming it's state paganism. I do not say that to be clever but out of sadness...that a people whose feel are shod with Gospel of peace run so easily to watch and even participate in displays brutality and inhumanity...if only in the liesure of our recreation.

Regarding the military, I am not worthy to critique the American soldier. These men and women, and their families have given pieces of themselves that I will never fully understand...I will not slight their sacrifice by becoming conveniently moralistic or philosophic about a war that has become unpopular. My questions are not directed at the United States of America, which must...as nations do...have a right to pursue security with acceptance of the consequences of her policy choices.

My questions are for the Christians in N. America. With all of the hub bub to be socially relevant, in song, dress, and behavior... we need to be reminded that the earliest Christians were highly sectarian from their 'host' societies. While governments must wield the sword, it is not the role of the church to cheer them on but to be a light...a city set on a hill that pricks the conscience of the worldy rulers. This contradisctinction is what defines the Christian from the politician and the soldier. Our battle is not to kill flesh and blood, but to defeat darkness with light. It is a risky paradox...and one that I am trying to understand. If we forsake this paradox of proclamation, how can the darkness have light? Indeed might our participation very well affirm that all men, even Christians, are ultimately bound to devilish principalities and powers?

I am reminded of Tertullian's public rebuff to the political powers that were violently persecuting the church. He pointed out that we resist your evil not by violence but by dying. This is why we are called God's sheep, because we are slaughtered.

Challenging...almost surreal words for sure. They are certainly beyond me right now...especially as a man who would be wiling to die in preserving the Earthly security for my family...but perhaps less willing to die to preserve their purity... this City set on a Hill. But as America becomes more and more manifestly divergent from the Kingdom of God I wonder how long it will be before I will have to finally let go of this world.

Blessings and grace saints,

MC

TJ,

I would try to stop someone of they were trying to hurt my family, but I wouldn't kill them.

Check out the book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? by David Bercot. It shows that the early Christians took Jesus' words literally and they and their families died because of it.

We have been influence by Augustine's beliefs on this matter instead of taking Jesus's words and just living them.

Jordan

Are we talking about the same thing?

I agree, and I would not try to kill, but in the heat of battle trying to stop a psycho from harming my family, I’m just not sure what would happen.

Once again let me say that I do not support needless killing, but being an EMT working on the bad side of town, I have seen situations that are not typical. There is a time for everything.

Check out the book, Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up? by David Bercot

Does this book say I should “try” to stop someone from harming my family, but to let us all die if that cannot be done without “permanently hurting” the psycho?

I would never intentionally “kill”, but I have seen people that took two tazer shots and four large police officers to subdue.

I’m not talking about being willing to die for Christ, or martyrdom. I’m talking about defending my family from drug crazed psychos.

I don't know if I could stop trying to help.

Are we talking about the same thing?

Peace be with you.

TJ

Hi TJ,

I don't have time to answer you right now because I'm leaving for several days.

God bless, Jordan :-D

Brothers and Sisters,
First, let me assure you that this discussion is in no way intended to judge anyone. I am not judging any one that has served, or is currently serving in the armed forces.
My dad served during WWII going in at Normandy, and I served in Vietnam. We both gave a part of ourselves both physically and mentally, my dad shrapnel, my-self a bullet.
I will never forget the pain that was in his eyes, when one of us kids would ask him about the war, he never responded with a verbal answer.
The day I was leaving, my dad, with tears in his eyes and a broken voice said, son I fought so my sons would not have to fight now you must fight so your sons will not have to. Do you hear the futileness of such a statement?
To this day I wonder if he really believed what he was really saying to me. I was never able to discuss this with him as he passed while I was still in the service.
There are so many emotions that are stirred in a discussion about war and peace that they,
Usually, take over and scripture is set aside as we argue our points. Let us try and keep to scripture and leave out all the what- ifs that our emotions stir-up.

Myth #1 Peace comes through war.

To justify war many use the statement, just look at the Old Testament, God was a God of war and he does not change. Yes it is true, God does not change, but his ways are totally up to him.
Isaiah 55:8-11
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [10] For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: [11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The Lord God established himself in the Old Testament as the deliverer of his people.
2 Samuel 22:2
And he said, The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Acts 7:35
This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

Every time they tried to go it alone their enemies would prevail over them, only through His deliverance would they prevail.
In the New Testament the Lord chose to deliver all people both Jew and Gentile through His Son Jesus Christ. Search your bible and see it is not by war that he does this but through peace.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Ephes. 2:11-22
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: [17] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. [18] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. [19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; [20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; [21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: [22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Something we must always remember about war, it is fought to either keep or take something that belongs to this world.
Luke 11:21-23
When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: [22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. [23] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: [20] But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: [21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

In Rev. 13 the beast is given power to make war against the saints and to prevail over them. Power is also given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Dear saints beware, the one given power to prevail in war is not of God, he is only being used of God to fulfill His purpose.
The saints are warned by the Lord in Rev. 13:7-10 not to be a part of it.
Rev. 13:7-10
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. [9] If any man have an ear, let him hear. [10] He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If any man have an ear to hear let him hear.
Paul says:
Romans 8:5-6
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

2 Cor. 10:3-5
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [4] (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) [5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Jesus says:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?

Love and Peace to All,

pastorfrin

[b]I will never forget the pain that was in his eyes, when one of us kids would ask him about the war, he never responded with a verbal answer.[/b]

Brother, this reminded me of a Keith's Daniel testemony about his father, you can hear the message here: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4227&commentView=itemComments]My Godly Father[/url]
I believe it will be great encouragement to you.

And thank you for your last post and the Scriptures given.

Myth #1 Peace comes through war.

This can be very true if we change the battlefield. Yes, peace comes through war, but war deep in heart with personal sin of everyone. If there is a peace, God will give us peace around us.

Again I ask, what kingdom do we belong to, and who is our king?

Yes brother, we should consider this question well. Dealing with this question I think we should solve many so called dilemmas.

Blessings.
Kire

I want to add few more thoughts.

To justify war many use the statement, just look at the Old Testament,

Yes, we can look at OT. The history of king Asa is very dear to my heart.
I think we can learn very profitable lesson from there about peace and war and what is that that brings peace.

2Ch 14:2 [b]And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God: [/b]
2Ch 14:3 For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:
2Ch 14:4 [b]And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God[/b] of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.
2Ch 14:5 Also he took away out of all the cities of Judah the high places and the images: [b]and the kingdom was quiet before him. [/b]
2Ch 14:6 And he built fenced cities in Judah: for the land had rest, [b]and he had no war in those years; because the LORD had given him rest.[/b]
2Ch 14:7 Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; [b]because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side.[/b] So they built and prospered.

To come alongside with Scripture...

Isa 30:1 ¶ Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
9 That this [is] a rebellious people, lying children, children [that] will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
12 ¶ Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Here we learn of a generation that rejects the Holy One of Israel...

Hear the promise of rest in Scripture...

Isa 30:15 ¶ For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Because they did not repent...judgement comes...

Isa 30:27 ¶ Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning [with] his anger, and the burden [thereof is] heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and [there shall be] a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing [them] to err.

Do you hear what war brings to those who reject the Lord? "And His breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of futility; and (there shall be) a bridle in the jaws of the people causing (them) to err."

God allows Satan to sift the nation with the sieve of futility which causes them to err.

After the fire of His breath has gone out to destroy...what is the result?

Isa 30:18 ¶ And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.
19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.
20 And [though] the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

The Lord waits for those who suffer the affliction that they themselves have brought upon themselves, for their cry to Him to save them from this adveristy, from this affliction...

And then once again their is a remnant willing to listen to the word of God that is near them...and rest comes to those who listen.

How many in this nation reject the Holy One, look around you, they all cry for peace through war, and for what gain? To preserve the peverse generation of this day. Do our hearts cry out like Lot's? Are our souls vexed because of what we see and hear around us? Or do we take part and cast our lots in among those who are evil?

In Christ
Jeff

Prior to reading through this thread I held to the position that there are such things as 'righteous' wars, WWII being the best example I would have given. My position was that had I lived in that era I would have joined up and felt justified in doing so.

I think I am changing my mind. Thank you for a very thought provoking discussion. Thank you all for discussing this issue with such decoram!

One thing I am not certain about. The Vietnam war was fought using the draft. Scripture tells us to submit to governmental authority. I assume the answer to this is to say that we are to submit so long as we are not told to commit sin. This is similar to wives submitting to husbands even when they are still living in darkness. Still, I am not aware of any scripture that directly indicates this 'escape clause'. This is not to say I disagree with the reasoning, just that I don't yet know how I might respond if I were drafted by my country to go to war. Especially if the war looked as justifiable as WWII looked from man's perspective.

It is a good thing to think on these things as the day may yet come where we are confronted with these issues for real.

In His Love

Doug