JEWISH ERROR AND REPLACEMENT ERROR

BradW wrote:
Could someone in the know here, explain a little bit about this? I know the general idea that the NT Church "replaces" the OT Israel, but I don't know where either side draws their proofs.

I'm still learning and praying about this but haven't come to a conclusion yet. I just want to open this up to both sides of the debate.

Also, if anyone knows of some trustworthy sites that explain this, that would be great.

Brad

Here is Dr. Michael Brown's website ministry:
http://icnministries.org/israel/forsaken.htm

That was absolutely wonderful, thank you for explaining it that way.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this [b]present[/b] time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

When you consider Israels history, I am sure you have. When Nehemiah and Ezra went back to Jerusalem to begin it's restoration, I believe only 1-2% of the Jewish nation returned, the rest stayed in Babylon. When you consider that many in Babylon had foreign wives. When you consider that when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. Again, they were scattered to the four winds not by choice, and not in one group. Some were sold for wives, slaves. Over time there would be such a level of cross breeding that there would be no such a thing as a true bredded Jew, it would be name only not by blood.

And I believe that the Jewish Encyclopedia makes that fact known, that the Jew of the bible is not the same Jew of today. Though many Christians would argue with that.

Hi Ian,

Unless you listen to Dr Brown's exposition at the beginning of the recent thread titled 'replacement theology', you will miss that [u]he is defining 'replacement theology' differently from the majority[/u] of posters on SI.

I'm not sure if he is definining accurately, what Jews object to, or has misunderstood what many Christians believe, thus creating a false dichotomy which is only doing harm to the relationship between unsaved (and saved) Jews and the Church.

EDIT: I didn't mean this to sound like saved Jews are not in the Church. :-( Of course they are! 8-) I do apologise for the way I left that overnight and trust my meaning is now clear.

Jay asked

Dr. Brown seems to reject a form of 'Replacement Theology' that is not very common. [b]I don't know of anyone who believes that Jews cannot come into the church.[/b]

Dorcas is that your understanding of his objection?

I didn't notice Dr Brown alluding to what I had understood 'replacement theology' to be. That's what's a bit of a surprise to me.

The 'replacement theology' he defines, is one in which says the Jews have an important part to play in the Second Coming of Christ, when they will say 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord' (Matt 23:39).

My understanding of that verse is that it has been fulfilled. That 'we see Jesus' now, and this [i]seeing[/i] which is spiritual, is what Jesus was referring to in Matt 23:39 - that the day will come, when Jews in large numbers will recognise the call of the gospel, and will believe.... then they also will 'see' Him as we do. Their blindness will have been removed, as is the blindness of any converted Jew already.

2 Corinthians 3:12 - 16 (Young)
Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech, and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless, but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn--which in Christ is being made useless-- but till to-day, when Moses is read, a vail upon their heart doth lie, and [u][i][b]whenever[/b][/i] they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away[/u].

Dr Brown seems to neglect that Jews always have come to the Lord ever since He came, and that Jews will continue to come - which is your point, Jay, that it is as if he forgets this and refers to a time in the future only (and far too much about the past).

I think we are on the same page on this.

I hate this subject, it so degenerates the Church, it shows partiality towards the Jews, and it shows Christ as a divided body.

In a time where we so need to come together as a body and stop uplifting a race that denies the LORDship of Jesus Christ and begin to uplift one another.

My heart is set on the Church of the LORD Jesus Christ. I don't pray for the Jews, I pray for the Church that we come together, fitly joined together in the unity of the faith until we are brought together in the unity of the Spirit.

Christ has only one special people, and it is His body. Period!!

Sister Dorcas, What I understood Michael Brown to be saying was that replacement theology makes null and void Covenant promises that God made with His people, and then later promised in the New Covenant as outlined in Jeremiah 31, that all nations will be blessed, hence the Ingrafted Vine that is made possible thru the Atoning Blood of Messiah Jesus, bringing all the nations (Gentiles) into a Covenant Relationship with Yahweh, and His Son Jesus Messiah (Christ in the greek)

On this forum, I think I'm the only (rabbinical)Jew, who was bar-mitzvahed, and then later in life accepted Messiah as Saviour, as the final Yom Kippur, the only others I know of are Art Katz and Michael Brown, and I dont see them posting on this forum.

and frankly I'm not as smart as they are, or able to explain this Economy of God as ably as they do, but I can tell you this: since 345 AD, when satan played games with Constantine and he made "christianity" the official Roman Imperial religion, the church, the roman church has done nothing but drive the Jewish people away, and Martin Luther certainly sped this process along with his later venomous screeds, at the foundational beginnings of Protestantism.

what Michael Brown kept coming back to was "so close, yet so far" in his assessment of God fearing observant Jews. Yes, there are secular Jews, just as there are secular Gentiles, and secular Catholics, who say "I was born Catholic", or secular Christians, who say "I was born Christian, "born Baptist", etc etc.

But he refers to observant Jews, who to their dying breath say the Schma everyday, that was the first greatest Commandent that Jesus spoke of, and in reality for 1,662 years the "church" has done nothing to make the observant Jew ENVIOUS of so great a salvation, quite the opposite. Which is his thesis in his book, "Our Hands are Stained with Blood", that one should have to ask yourself this question, why do you think satan uses the church to kill and persecute Jews to such an extent, that mere mention of the Name of Jesus will send shudders down an observant Jews spine, and its not out of Holy Ghost conviction, its tales of forced conversions, pogroms, crusaders and nazis murdering Jews in the "name" of "jesus". Why do you think it is that the biggest opponents TODAY of the modern State of Israel are the most liberal backslidden denominations, ie, the PCUSA, ECUSA, and the United Methodist church in America, the same ones who dont hestitate to ordain gay people as "pastors"?

I was just remembering my grandmother today, thinking about her, she was an unobservant Jew, she definitely believed in God, but both her and my mother would drop me OFF at synagogue for my Hebrew and theologial instruction, and then they'd pick me up. My grandmother loathed and feared Russians, and she was born in the United States as a first generation immigrant....so how do you figure that?.....well, you see, it was her grandmother that sent over her 4 children, one at at time, as her meager wages as a baker in the Pale of Settlement allowed (an area of Poland and Russia) in the 1880's to 1890 period to Orange New Jersey, coz it was BAD over there, the Cossacks were a nightmare, they enjoyed the frequent pogroms, raiding, raping and murdering Jewish villages in this hellish region.

Although there was a small minority of Muslim, Buddhist (Kalmyk Cossacks) and Old Believer Cossacks in Russia, the majority of Cossacks are of the Russian Orthodox faith. The relationship between Cossacks and the Orthodox Church runs very deep, and has had strong influences on both the history of the Cossacks and that of the Orthodox Church. Traditionally, Cossacks are considered the protectors of the Church and Orthodox Christians

at one time, in the early part of the second millenium Poland was vibrant center of Jewish community, worship and freedom of religion, and over time that changed into quite the opposite, Poland at one time had 3 million Jews living in it, today there are maybe 5,000.

At one time from the 1700's and thru the 1800's Germany was a richly vibrant center of Jewish community and worship, and we know what happened there.

Now today in America, we have a vibrant Jewish community of maybe 6 million Jews, ask yourself this, why is satan so intent on wiping out the Jewish peoples? AND using the "church", or giving Jew haters and murders a theological "underpining" to buttress their muderous fervor? why is that?

Could it be that the Jewish people figure so prominently into God's end time plans?

"Until the full number of Gentiles are brought in"........

For 1.662 years, the "church" in its various 400 some odd denominations and configurations that just divide the Body of Christ, the True Church, has had a muderous miserable testimony in making the Jewish people ENVIOUS of so great a salvation, AND if there are those who believe that God can rip away Covenant Promises made to the Jews, what makes Christians so confident that the same wont be done to them, IF that is the case? which it isnt, because we do not worship a fork tongued "god", Heaven forbid, Yahweh, God is True, the same yesterday, today and tommorrow, till the end of the age. He has been the same from "bereshith" (the Book of Genesis) right thru Revelations of John till this very second.

In closing, let me ask you this, those who professed Jesus as Lord and then murdered Jews in "his name", will they be the ones who say "Lord Lord"? and what will He say to them?

maybe......."Get away from me, I never knew you"?......and maybe, Juuuuust maybe those who were impaled ON STAKES because they refused to "convert" to an apostate "christianity", with their last breath's said "Schma Yis'orael, Adonai Eloheynu, Adonai Echad", where might they be going in eternity?

You dont have to answer, its a rhetorical question.

by the by, I've met the most marvelous group of black women prayer warriors who have a Bible study and prayer meeting on Wednesday nights, they recieved me with joy, and we have a most wonderful time in the Lord, studying the Word, and praying and calling out to Jesus. Crossing that "color line", as led by Him.

We are called to bind the wounds and tend to the ministry of reconciliation, us to each other and us to God, that is the Gospel Jesus revealed to me and in me.

Much love and blessings, see you soon, God willing, neil

I hate this subject, it so degenerates the Church, it shows partiality towards the Jews, and it shows Christ as a divided body.

partiality? I dont think so, a lot of Jewish blood has been shed "in the name of christ".

and the "church" is hopelessly divided, how many different denominations do we have now?

stop uplifting a race

I don't pray for the Jews

my my my.

course you don't.

bartle said, (and I receive it in the respectful and gentle spirit offered)

What I understood Michael Brown to be saying was that replacement theology makes null and void Covenant promises that God made with His people

This is not quite what I heard him saying, as you will gather from several of my (recent) posts.

Is there a difficulty in some Jewish minds with the concept of the New Covenant [i]completely[/i] taking the place of the Old Covenant?

This is not a rhetorical question.

Having asked, I don't for a minute believe God doesn't want Jews in right relationship with Him, or, that Jews who are not yet, are not loved and blessed by Him as Abraham's natural descendents. But, there is a big difference between what He expects from Jews, under the New Covenant, compared with then, under the Old.

I recently had a conversation with a brother about the meaning of being Jewish, and have been thinking more deeply about something he said, namely, that the creation of Jewishness is primarily spiritual. I had never thought of it that way, but can see that circumcision was an outward sign of Abraham's inward attitude towards God and His word to him.

God continued to seek for this attitude from [i]all[/i] Abraham's descendents, to whom He had made the promises with every intention of fulfilling them, and longed to fulfil them, but, He found very few with Abraham's heartstate.

Moses later defined this as 'stiffnecked' and 'uncircumcised in heart', which latter comment Paul uses as his basis for defining New Covenant Jewishness:

Romans 2:29
but [he is] a Jew who [is one] inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [is] not from men but from God.

It seems to me that the necessity of ending the Old Covenant, which was a temporary legal system to help not only His people but gentiles too, to understand the gulf between God's heart and man's, was inevitable. Jews had the prophets - the word of God in their own language, and the biggest picture of all, of being [i]family[/i].

Included in this, was the injunction to take in and care for strangers, and to allow those who would, like Ruth and Rahab, make God's people their people, and worship God as their God.

Under the New Covenant, this is just the same, in that the New Covenant was to the Jew first, but also to the gentile, as Peter soon found out.

[This post was too long, so I've divided it after writing.]

One thing which seems to come through Dr Brown's talking (though maybe not his thinking), is a kind of denial of the end of that Old Covenant relationship between the Jews and God. It is as if he doesn't acknowledge (in what he says) that [b]God[/b] [u]ended[/u] the Old Covenant, and God's 'chosen' people, are now the Church, which both Jews and gentiles continue to join through faith, thus becoming Abraham's children together. I know you know this.

What seems hard to acknowledge, by those who know they are Jewish, is that their first birth is as [i]useless[/i] to them as a gentile's first birth is to him. This is not to trivialise Jewishness or the Jewishness of Christ. But, Jesus said 'My kingdom is not of this world. If it were...' and 'The kingdom of God is within you.' The territory God wants us to possess, is the interior land of our own life. He wants us to make it His own in a very real way, with our heart's affection set on things above, as that is where we are now [i]from[/i]. Our real heart-values undergo a radical rethink, as our minds are renewed through the Spirit's work in us.

On a related point, I've been thinking a lot about the olive tree in Romans 11, and other trees in scripture - or wood - like the ark, the rod that budded, the branch that was thrown into the bitter water to make it sweet, the cross, the tree of life in Rev 22 of which the leaves are for the healing of the nations - and, I've been thinking about seeds - the mustard seed and the corn of wheat that falls into the ground and dies that it might bring forth much fruit.

Christ was that corn of wheat. We cannot 'see Jesus' (Heb 2), unless we understand what He answered there in John 12 to the Greeks' request.

In the same way, is not He the Branch (Zech 3 and 6), separated from the natural tree through His death, now bearing branches which have been grafted in through the adoption (Rom 9:4) of both Jew and gentile, (for [i]all[/i] Jews are as 'cut off' by unbelief, as gentiles also)?

This thought is consistent with the prophecy in Isaiah 56, where a clear separation is made between those who were charged with watching over Israel who failed, and those eunuchs who choose the things that please Him, 'taking hold of His covenant' which was, clearly, still to come, and which offered 'sons and daughters' a 'better name'.

Could it be that the Jewish people figure so prominently into God's end time plans?

However, Dr Brown's connection of the Second Coming with Matt 23:39 took my breath away, in that I don't know [i]any[/i] Christians who believe that verse is a reference to the Second Coming, or, that some Jews born a long time after Christ will still have the opportunity to 'see' Him in His resurrection body, [i]before[/i] deciding whether to accept Him as Messiah (or not). Generally, Christians believe the Second Coming marks the [u]end of all opportunity[/u] to turn to the Lord forever, for any people. This word from Dr Brown seemed to me to be a mixture of carnal and spiritual thinking, from which Jewish listeners might infer a hope for possibly distant future salvation (of Jews), which does not exist. Jews should believe on Him [u]now[/u]. Today is the day of salvation.

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed they that have not seen, and have believed.

bartle said

by the by, I've met the most marvelous group of black women prayer warriors who have a Bible study and prayer meeting on Wednesday nights, they recieved me with joy, and we have a most wonderful time in the Lord, studying the Word, and praying and calling out to Jesus. Crossing that "color line", as led by Him.

We are called to bind the wounds and tend to the ministry of reconciliation, us to each other and us to God, that is the Gospel Jesus revealed to me and in me.

Yet while Dr Brown may well be doing the Church a kind of service by describing all the wounds made by bloodthirsty men (Pro 1:10 - 19) in the name of Christ, the true Church is also wounded by these accusations against a new generation of believers, who cannot be held responsible for these sins, any more than they can be held responsible for their own - in that Christ took responsibility for them all.

The fact that God has concluded [u]all[/u] under sin (Rom 3) should be our common [i]rejoicing[/i], in that His love also extends His grace to [b]all[/b] who will receive it through faith in the Messiah, our Saviour.

Much love and blessings, see you soon, God willing