"Killing on the battlefield is not a sin."

I read an article today where a catholic soldier is feeling very guilty for killing someone in Iraq.

He got a lot of slack for having a decal on his truck that says, "Lord forgive me, I have commited sins for our freedom."

http://www.turnto23.com/news/11177861/detail.html?subid=22100581&qs=1;bp=t

Is killing only a sin if it's done outside of your job/duty?

CS Lewis talks about this subject in detail in his book, 'Mere Christianity.' Lewis himself was a veteran of the first World War and fought in the trenches in France -I trust his discernment on the issue.

[url=http://www.lib.ru/LEWISCL/mere_engl.txt]Mere Christianity[/url] by CS Lewis - Book III Chapter VII - Forgiveness

... Now a step further. Does loving your enemy mean not punishing him? No, for loving myself does not mean that I ought not to subject myself to punishment-even to death. If one had committed a murder, the right Christian thing to do would be to give yourself up to the police and be hanged. It is, therefore, in my opinion, perfectly right for a Christian judge to sentence a man to death or a Christian soldier to kill an enemy. I always have thought so, ever since I became a Christian, and long before the war, and I still think so now that we are at peace. It is no good quoting "Thou shalt not kill." There are two Greek words: the ordinary word to kill and the word to murder. And when Christ quotes that commandment He uses the murder one in all three accounts, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And I am told there is the same distinction in Hebrew. [b]All killing is not murder any more than all sexual intercourse is adultery[/b]. When soldiers came to St. John the Baptist asking what to do, he never remotely suggested that they ought to leave the army: nor did Christ when He met a Roman sergeant-major-what they called a centurion. The idea of the knight-the Christian in arms for the defence of a good cause-is one of the great Christian ideas. War is a dreadful thing, and I can respect an honest pacifist, though I think he is entirely mistaken. What I cannot understand is this sort of semipacifism you get nowadays which gives people the idea that though you have to fight, you ought to do it with a long face and as if you were ashamed of it. It is that feeling that robs lots of magnificent young Christians in the Services of something they have a right to, something which is the natural accompaniment of courage- a kind of gaity and wholeheartedness.

I have often thought to myself how it would have been if, when I served in the first world war, I and some young German had killed each other simultaneously and found ourselves together a moment after death. I cannot imagine that either of us would have felt any resentment or even any embarrassment. I think we might have laughed over it.

I imagine somebody will say, "Well, if one is allowed to condemn the enemy's acts, and punish him, and kill him, what difference is left between Christian morality and the ordinary view?" All the difference in the world. Remember, we Christians think man lives for ever. Therefore, what really matters is those little marks or twists on the central, inside part of the soul which are going to turn it, in the long run, into a heavenly or a hellish creature. We may kill if necessary, but we must not hate and enjoy hating. We may punish if necessary, but we must not enjoy it. In other words, something inside us, the feeling of resentment, the feeling that wants to get one's own back, must be simply killed. I do not mean that anyone can decide this moment that he will never feel it any more. That is not how things happen. I mean that every time it bobs its head up, day after day, year after year, all our lives long, we must hit it on the head. It is hard work, but the attempt is not impossible. Even while we kill and punish we must try to feel about the enemy as we feel about ourselves- to wish that he were not bad. to hope that he may, in this world or another, be cured: in fact, to wish his good. That is what is meant in the Bible by loving him: wishing his good, jot feeling fond of him nor saving he is nice when he is not.

I admit that this means loving people who have nothing lovable about them. But then, has oneself anything lovable about it? You love it simply because it is yourself, God intends us to love all selves in the same way and for the same reason: but He has given us the sum ready worked out on our own case to show us how it works. We have then to go on and apply the rule to all the other selves. Perhaps it makes it easier if we remember that that is how He loves us. Not for any nice, attractive qualities we think we have, but just because we are the things called selves. For really there is nothing else in us to love: creatures like us who actually find hatred such a pleasure that to give it up is like giving up beer or tobacco. ...

Hope that brings you some light on this issue.

I have often thought to myself how it would have been if, when I served in the first world war, I and some young German had killed each other simultaneously and found ourselves together a moment after death. I cannot imagine that either of us would have felt any resentment or even any embarrassment. I think we might have laughed over it.

I doubt it! I don't think they would be laughing.

Here is a long thread on the issue. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7499&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go

“Would we send our daughters off to have sex if it would benefit our country? Yet, we send our sons off to kill when we think it would benefit our country!” Leonard Ravenhill

Leonard Ravenhill vs. CS Lewis in a no-holds show down!

Jack has a nearly ten year edge over Leo on age, but Leonard had a more longevity. Both of them were sold out for Jesus, and both agreed on more things that they disagreed.

You might see how getting into this kind of arguement is in it's very nature not edifying.

By the way, what I think he meant by that comment about the Germans, is that once we are removed from the earthly bodies we have, everything will probably seem insignificant -wars, politics, etc.

Is killing only a sin if it's done outside of your job/duty?

What is sin? Is it an act or is it a condition?

Blake

But we can not dismiss God (otherwise known as Jesus) who was a warring God in the OT. He not only fought for Israel, but in most cases He also commanded them to not leave anyone alive, and burn everything.

All war is unbiblical thus, now-- unless it is ordained by God-- but that wouldn't happen because the only war that is now ordained by God is our war with not men and real swords anymore (like it was in the OT at times), but the war that is against the Devil and all of his workings amidst this World with the Word, Truth, and the Spirit.

War is futile, pointless, and serves no end. The nations will rage and fight, and wars and rumors of war shall come about-- that will happen no matter what-- there is NO stopping it in these end days. and that is fine. that is the eschatological view-- wars will come about and they must-- Nations have the right to defend themselves etc.-- but I shall have no part in it at all, for i am not apart of this world, and while i live in this world, i take no part in the World's doings but only as far as the 'line' goes such as commerce that is acceptable by God, but i know my limits. you may think they allow you to go to war. if so, that is fine with me but i will not approve of it. we can live in peace with eachother, but i will go to prison before i ever even touch a weapon of this world or get close to it via a war-situation.

Let us live in harmony with eachother despite our differential views on this. I am not trying to convince you of my point but we can still agree that argument is pretty futile. but this is my view and i feel compelled to state it as that.

Jordan

Tell ya what... why dont we all lay down our arms and do nothing to prevent evil in this world. Lets see how long we last.

It's real easy for people to say we should be pacifists when we have never really had to face an enemy on our own soil. We've never had someone break into our homes and threaten our families.

It's all talk.

Make sure you're not assuming that only "some americans" hold to that view.

By the way, never criticize anyone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them... you are a mile away and you have their shoes!!

thats great :lol:

But what about "we wrestle not against flesh and blood..."?

I'm just interested in hearing... er, reading your thoughts on that.

Should a Christian serve his country and fight in a war and possibly kill other christians and non christians?

Wow, this is one of those questions that has a million and one different circumstances... there is no generic one size fits all answer.

When the Muslims were invading europe and threatening to destory Christianity, wasn't it a good thing that there were Christians who took up arms alongside non-christians to defend their lands and in turn our faith?

When the Muslims were invading europe and threatening to destory Christianity, wasn't it a good thing that there were Christians who took up arms alongside non-christians to defend their lands and in turn our faith?

No.

2Co 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;

Here is a part of George Fox's journal.

The time of my commitment to the house of correction being very nearly ended, and there being many new soldiers raised, the commissioners would have made me captain over them; and the soldiers cried out that they would have none but me. So the keeper of the house of correction was commanded to bring me before the commissioners and soldiers in the market-place, where they offered me that preferment, as they called it, asking me if I would not take up arms for the Commonwealth against Charles Stuart. I told them I knew whence all wars arose, even from the lusts, according to James’ doctrine; and that I lived in the virtue of that life and power that took away the occasion of all wars.

Yet they courted me to accept of their offer, and thought I did but compliment them. But I told them I was come into the covenant of peace, which was before wars and strifes were.

They said they offered it in love and kindness to me because of my virtue; and such-like flattering words they used. But I told them, if that was their love and kindness, I trampled it under my feet. Then their rage got up, and they said, “Take him away, jailer, and put him into the prison amongst the rogues and felons.” So I was put into a lousy, stinking place, without any bed, amongst thirty felons, where I was kept almost half a year; yet at times they would let me walk to the garden, believing I would not go away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

Many modern historians maintain that the Battle of Tours was one of the most important battles during the Umayyad conquests. As a devastating defeat for the Umayyads, it helped trigger their downfall, and this battle determined that Europe would be Christian, not Muslim.

Many modern historians maintain that the Battle of Tours was one of the most important battles during the Umayyad conquests. As a devastating defeat for the Umayyads, it helped trigger their downfall, and this battle determined that Europe would be Christian, not Muslim.

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight..."

How amazing is that sometimes even non-christians have found that the key of the victory is not force (carnal), here is what Napoleon Bonaparta said:

"Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? [b]Upon force.[/b] Jesus Christ founded an empire [b]upon love;[/b] and at this hour millions of men would die for Him."

People often quote the "wrestle not with..." verse as meaning that we should never fight physically... such as in a war.

absolutely right! But...

what it does say that our warfare is not against flesh and blood. they are not our real enemies. His kingdom is not of this world.

We're just strangers and pilgrims passing through this land. Our vision (hopefully) is set on things above, and not on the things of this world.

If i'm seeing this wrong, or if you think I'm not making some things clear; teach me. I'm always open to the Truth.

Maybe it's because I was raised in a military family. Every generation of my family that has lived in the United States has answered the call when the need arose.

My Grandfathers both fought the Japanese in the pacific. One was storming beaches in the Philipines, the other was one of the first on the ground in Nagasaki after the surrender.

My Father flew Cobra helecopters in Vietnam, and continued to serve for twenty more years after the war.

I am the first male in my family to go to Asia without a rifle in his hands -I was carrying a sword, the Word of God.

I have chosen a different path than my forefathers, but will not take away anything from the service that they gave to their country. It would certainly be a wrong application to suppose that the bible condemns all men for serving in the military -there are countries in the world with forced conscription, like South Korea, Singapore, Switzerland etc... there are plenty of men who are in the military AND Christian.