advice on a verse

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I don't understand this verse..It says God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish,so he waits..But surly the longer he waits the more people are born,and more people live and then die and perish..By waiting surly He does the opposite of what Hes wishing?

aj

strawrifle wrote:

I don't understand this verse..It says God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish,so he waits..But surly the longer he waits the more people are born,and more people live and then die and perish..By waiting surly He does the opposite of what Hes wishing?

Life is a gift and the more people who are born, the more people who may be with Him, that would give Him more Glory.

Hi Strawrifle, how are you?

I've had some similar thoughts about this verse, in thinking of it as it is often mentioned.

But then, something just stood out to me though, as I was thinking of another way I've heard this explained. What stands out is this...[i]us-ward[/i]. Other translations that I'm looking at have it as [b]to you[/b] or [b]you-ward[/b]. I think that is significant.

Chris

Hi Logic no i'm not implying that,but it just struck me as kind of catch 22..True more will be with Him,but also more wont..It says He wishes no one to perish,but while waiting He creates more people knowing some will..

Chris yes thats a great point,ur saying it's more a personal verse?

andy

II Peter 3:9 is a beautiful verse that demonstrates the love of God.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Some people emphasize the words 'not willing' and say that God is so patient and not willing that any person in the world perish that he is waiting for all men to come to repentance. But as strawrifle pointed out

It says God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish,so he waits..But surly the longer he waits the more people are born,and more people live and then die and perish..By waiting surly He does the opposite of what Hes wishing?

I affirm that the Lord does not delight in the death of anyone, but take a closer look at the verse.

To whom is God longsuffering? Us.

Who is the 'Us' referring to? The Beloved mentioned in verse 8. "But, beloved"

Who are the Beloved? The people Peter is addressing in his letter.
Verse 1 - "This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you."

To whom is Peter writing this letter? Those who come to a saving knowledge of Christ--Christians.
2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

But this is the second letter, what does the first say about the intended audience? 1 Peter 1:2 - "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."

Peter is not saying in this verse that God is patient with all men hoping that every person comes to repentance. Peter is saying that the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise to his elect concerning his second coming. The Lord is longsuffering because he is not willing that anyone elected according to the foreknowledge of God should perish before the second coming and that all of the elect come to repentance.

Job 33:8 ¶ Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of [thy] words, [saying],
9 I am clean without transgression, I [am] innocent; neither [is there] iniquity in me.
10 Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
11 He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
12 ¶ Behold, [in] this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
13 Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
14 For God speaketh once, yea twice, [yet man] perceiveth it not.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man [from his] purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
19 ¶ He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong [pain]:
20 So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
21. His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones [that] were not seen stick out.
22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23 ¶ If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27 He looketh upon men, and [if any] say, I have sinned, and perverted [that which was] right, and it profited me not;

Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

Job 33:29 Lo, all these [things] worketh God oftentimes with man,

Look at the last verse of this sequence...God is patient, He is not willing that any perish...for He give witness...listen to Proverbs.

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

God freely gives counsel to all, God is patient and calls out to all. In the above verses, the Holy Spirit brings wisdom from God. The question is do we choose to hear?

In Christ
Jeff

[b][color=CC0000]2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [/color][/b]

Many calvinists, interpret this verse as Jay did, frankly they have no choice but to interpret it that way, if they did not, it would destroy their theology.

Let me start with the first phrase,

[b][color=CC0000]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;[/color][/b]

The obvious meaning of this phrase is that the Lord fulfills his promises completely and totally, and is not lacking on any part of any single promise.

[b][color=CC0000]but is longsuffering to us-ward,[/color][/b]

Now, a calvinist says that that is us, "the elect". But if you read the rest of the verse, the tenses don't match with their interpretation of it.

I submit to you, that the us is man, the tense of the entire verse is present tense, and as such, if Peter is talking about himself, then he is saying that he has not yet repented, and God is being patient with him until he does. But we already know he has repented, so he is not talking about himself.

So, either Peter does not consider himself to be one of "the elect", or he is not talking about himself, and is thus talking about man.

[b][color=CC0000]not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/color][/b]

I believe this phrase is self-explanatory. It is not God's will for any man to go to hell, hell was created for the devil and his angels, not man. And God does not want man to go to hell. God cannot overide man's free will, so he is patient with him, showing him much mercy and longsuffering.

And yes, God realizes that the longer he waits, the more people will be born. But they have the same opportunity as we do who are already saved, and the same as God was long suffering toward us, He will be towards them as well.

Ben and I have presented two views of 2 Peter 3:9. I pray that each person would pray about which is true and which is false. Let God be the judge and let us all glorify His holy name.

If God is willing to save "all", but cannot save "all", the He must not be Almighty for there is something that is more powerful than Him, that being the free will of man. Thus free will becomes diefied and we are left with an impotent god who really really would like to save all men, but cannot because the created thing has usurped the power of the Creator.

Brother Ben could I take Romans 8:28 and give it to an unbeliever to comfort them? Of course not, because it is not written to the unbeliever, but rather the Saint who is in Christ. Thus we must factor in the audience to which the Epistle is addressed as Jay has done a wonderful job of doing.

There is much danger in thinking that man somehow is more powerful than God. Arminian theology has opened the door for many of the problems we have today. The idea that there is any good in man has led to much of the new age teachings that god is in all of us, it has led to universal ideas that we are all God's children, it has opened the door to universalism and many self centered pursuits of religious experience.

If we would simply start at the first point
Total Inability which declares that man is dead in sin, and can do nothing but sin we might begin to see things differently. I fear that we have made too little of sin, and have thus made too little of a Saviour, and now we are reaping the reprecussions.

P.S. This is coming from one who used to be the Arminian of Arminians, so please take that into consideration. I did not arrive at these conclusions from any book other than the Scriptures. Then I read other works to see if what I was sensing was true throughout Historical Christian Doctrine.

If God is willing to save "all", but cannot save "all", the He must not be Almighty for there is something that is more powerful than Him, that being the free will of man. Thus free will becomes diefied and we are left with an impotent god who really really would like to save all men, but cannot because the created thing has usurped the power of the Creator.

This is a common claim by calvinists everywhere, that if God wanted everyone to be saved, then they would be.

Answer me this: [b] Is it God's will for man to sin?[/b]

I will answer the question for you, NO, it is not his will for man to sin. It is His will that men would walk in righteousness. But man still sins.

In the same way, It is not God's will for men to die and go to hell, it is His will for them to be saved, but men still act contrary to God's will, as they have since Adam sinned.
What you fail to realize is that it does not deitize free will, it makes it pivotal to the Christian faith. You cannot be saved unless you believe. God draws you, calls you, reaches out to you. All in perfection, and then you have the choice to either believe or not. You cannot prove that man does not have to choose to believe in the scripture without digging for a needle in a haystack of other scriptures that teach that you do.

Jesus says that if Tyre and Sidon had seen the signs and wonders that the Jews saw, they would have believed. He placed the blame upon both the Jews, and also upon Tyre and Sidon for not believing. If only He could bestow irrisistable grace, He could not then have blamed either the Jews, or Tyre and Sidon for not believing, because they could not anyways. That would be called an unrighteous judgment.

Brother Ben could I take Romans 8:28 and give it to an unbeliever to comfort them? Of course not, because it is not written to the unbeliever, but rather the Saint who is in Christ. Thus we must factor in the audience to which the Epistle is addressed as Jay has done a wonderful job of doing.

Actually, if you do an apologetic study of the entire book of Romans, it was written to the Jews who had a conflict with the gospel that Paul was preaching. Only a small section is written to others, (the gentiles) which is found in chapters 10 and 11.

So I am sorry, but you are incorrect in this point. If you take any verse from Romans without first doing a whole book study, you rob the verse of its intended meaning. When the Bible was written, it was not seperated by chapter and verse. Although chapters and verses are a helpful guide through the Bible, they have caused far more error in interpretation than justifies that purpose.

When you said "total inability" are you referring to "Total Depravity"? Because that is contrary not only to Romans 1 and 2, but many other sections of the Bible.

Ben,

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Jay wrote:

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Neither, God [u]has[/u] atoned for all men's sins, and in so doing was able to offer every man salvation.

The reson for giving man free will in the matter is because God wants genuine love, and belief. If he gives them all those things, and changes all their desires, than they are no different than the angels of which he already has many.

By offering a choice, it sorts out who is truly in love with him, and who is not. He is no respecter of persons, therefore He cannot choose one man over another in salvation.

Ben,

Come on now you cannot avoid the questions. :-) Either God has the ability to save and doesn't or he does not have the ability.

Also, if God has atoned for all men's sins then all men would go to heaven because their would be no basis for judgment.

How can God atone for all men's sins and yet punish man for the sin of unbelief? Did Jesus not atone for all sins?

Hi all,though i'm honored that you all replied,it wasnt my intention to turn this into a Calvinist vs Arminianism discussion..

It was more the question that while God waits more people are born,and that God always run the risk of more perishing,that perplexed me..

As far as Calvinism or Arminianism,as the parable goes were all holding a part of an Elephant in the dark,but the same Elephant none the less..

aj

I agree that Peter had repented - at least three times, perhaps - but surely all of us need the goodness of God to lead us to repentance even more often?

Absolutely, but that is not what I was addressing, I was addressing repentance toward salvation, not sanctification.

It is a serious mistake to start carving scripture up and aportioning it to ethnic groups. I ask you to reconsider this approach, seeing Jesus said

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was not saying that those scriptures are for jews only, I was saying that Paul was talking to the Jews, so when we take what he said to the jews, and pull parts of it out of context, we will miss entirely the message that was being spoken.

I absoluteley believe romans applies to us, just as it does to the Jews. But if you read it from any other preface than that of how it was written, and why it was written, you lose the truth, and obtain religious jargon that means little.

in the context of the letter, it should be applied to those to whom it was written, only (don't you think)?

I respectfully disagree. The context of the letter shows that Peter is explaining that God is patient because he wants all who will come to a saving knowledge of Christ to do so; not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

This ties in well with the 'fullness of the Gentiles' mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

Also Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

It was more the question that while God waits more people are born,and that God always run the risk of more perishing,that perplexed me..

I apologize strawrifle for moving this away from where you were intending.

I hope you found my previous answer to 2 Peter 3:9 helpful. If not, let me know.

Hi Jay, its all good lol

in fact Chris reply as given me something to chew over..
aj

Ben,
If the book of Romans is only to the Jews as you have said, then what is our hope? seeing that is one of the most precise treatments of man's condition(both Jew and Gentile), as well as the glory of God's grace.

Also, to make it only apply to the Jews, you would be going against at least a thousand years of Church History, as well as many of the men who are on this site. Are you really willing to do that?

I do not know what resources you have used to exegete, and study this Book, but may I suggest reading Matthew Henry's Commentary on this book?

Also, if we were to discount the books of the Bible because of who they were written to, we wouldn't have much to stand on would we?

:-)