"Replacement theology" Can someone explain please?

Hi to all

I posted the following on the Replacement Theology thread but had no response so far.

I don't want to be controversial but would really like to understand where folk are coming from on this, as the two threads going on at the moment seem to ignore the question of the present day "Israel after the flesh" and focus solely on the question of "spiritual Israel".

Of course, the reality of the "Israel of God" is the most vital truth to understand, and especially to experience. The New Testament makes plain that Jesus completely fulfilled and made the Mosaic Law and sacrifices obsolete. There is no way I would dispute that.

But surely the question of natural Israel is [i]also[/i] relevant? For these two aspects are at present going on "in parallel" as it were, until the time the Lord creates the "New heaven and the new earth". I think both neeed to be looked at, and clearly distinguished from each other.

We are already citizens of the Kingdom, yet we still have our old bodies that will age and die and decay, unless the Lord returns first. Much as we would like to we can't ignore the fact!

In the same way, although Israel after the Spirit is already here, and the New Covenant in place, replacing the Old; yet Israel after the flesh is also still around on the world scene, and can't be totally ignored!

I wrote (with some minor alterations here):

...I'm a little confused with this discussion. What some of you seem to be talking about isn't what I thought was the main problem with Replacement "Theology.

To me there are two main aspects to "Replacement Theology":

1. The concept that "in Christ there is no Jew or Greek...but we are all one in Christ Jesus"

2. The idea that God has totally "finished with", and has no more purpose for, the Jews and the nation of Israel "after the flesh" on the world stage.

I can understand the first, very much so. That "they are not all Israel which are of Israel" has, I think, been quoted. Also the concept of the faithful remnant, and the "Israel of God - Jew and Gentile together - one in Christ. The foundations of the City in Revelation are both the 12 tribes and the 12 apostles... One City, one people in Christ.

Does anyone dispute that this is so? I certainly would not.

However, I do not believe that God has therefore finished with the present day Jewish nation and people. As Paul said, they are "beloved for the fathers' sakes". And I believe they are still beloved - even those who reject their own Messiah, and will in the end be lost.

The Jews, (including the unbelieving ones)and especially the nation of Israel, are still the Lord's "witnesses" in this present age - whether they like it or not - even when they are mostly still in rebellion against the God of their fathers.

[b][i]Why else does the antichrist spirit in the world continually stir up hatred and attempt to destroy them?[/i][/b] Hitler wasn't the first and definitely not the last. Anti Semitism is if anything on the increase. The nation is threatened on every side; many Muslims - even if they don't support terrorism - want to see Israel wiped off the face of the map.

Why,if God has no more purpose for her in the earth?

Yours in Him

Jeannette

Hi Jeanette

You said

This is, to me, the strongest reason to indicate that God still has a plan for the nations of the world that hinges on Israel and the Jews.

I have yet to hear anyone talk on this subject and make real sense, without also offering a kind of denial to the New Covenant, or, a resistance to accepting that some prophecy [i]has[/i] been fulfilled, and can no longer be used to bolster our expectation of what God still needs Jews for. Which is not to say He is finished with them. To me, that is just as ridiculous a suggestion and not one I've ever accepted.

The political situation of the [i]whole world[/i] is relevant. But I have no idea where to place Israel in all this. This is not even 2 cents. Sorry. :-?

dorcas wrote:

This is, to me, the strongest reason to indicate that God still has a plan for the nations of the world that hinges on Israel and the Jews.

Without doubt God is still drawing Jews into adoption to His family and this is wonderful.

I have yet to hear anyone talk on this subject and make real sense, without also offering a kind of denial to the New Covenant, or, a resistance to accepting that some prophecy [i]has[/i] been fulfilled, and can no longer be used to bolster our expectation of what God still needs Jews for. Which is not to say He is finished with them. To me, that is just as ridiculous a suggestion and not one I've ever accepted.

The political situation of the [i]whole world[/i] is relevant. But I have no idea where to place Israel in all this. This is not even 2 cents. Sorry. :-?

You said:[color=003366]I have yet to hear anyone talk on this subject and make real sense, without also offering a kind of denial to the New Covenant, or, a resistance to accepting that some prophecy [i]has[/i] been fulfilled, and can no longer be used to bolster our expectation of what God still needs Jews for.[/color]

I find this surprising, :-o although it is probably true that many groups who are very "pro-Israel" on Biblical grounds are too "into" the Old Covenant.

I've never before been called to "defend" the continuing place of Israel in God's plan to anyone except those whose doctrine is already a bit "way out" in other things as well. (Such as "liberals" or "Restoration" groups, and an internet friend who believes the Rapture happened in 70AD!)

But in present company I have to, for the first time, take seriously that there [i]are[/i] "sound", "orthodox" Bible-believing Christians, who do not see the continuing significance of Israel and the Jews in the same way.

Mmmm

Maybe a good place to begin is the fact that much "end time" prophecy has already been [i]partially[/i] fulfilled, as you said.

A (part Jewish, artist)friend explained that there are often many "layers of meaning" in Scripture - especially in the poetic and prophetic areas. We can often only take in one or two of those.

There are prophecies which are fulfilled already but are also those to be more "fully fulfilled" in the future. An example is in 1John where he said that there were already "many antichrists" in the world, yet most of us probably believe that there will eventually be one indvidual, [i]the[/i] Antichrist.

Or Isaiah's prophecy "a virgin shall conceive and bear a son". In the original context it meant that a young woman (probably recently married) was about to have a son, and before the child was even able to say "Daddy!" the enemies of Israel and Syria would be powerless to threaten Judah. In the original context it meant that the enemy threat wouldn't last much longer -only the time between the birth of a child and when he says his first word.

Yet this was far from the [i]ultimate[/i] fulfillment!

No-one at the time would have understood that.

So it is with prophecy not yet fulfilled re Israel. The only question must be how much has already been fulfilled and how much is to come?

For example, the word about "all nations" coming against Jerusalem could have been fulfilled in AD 70, but was that the "full fulfillment"?

Luke 21:20 following:
[i][color=003366]20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles [b]until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.[/b][/color][/i]
AD 70 certainly seems to be a fulfillment of the first part of this passage, but have the "times of the Gentiles" really been fulfilled yet? Was the destruction and scattering of the nation of Israel in AD 70 the final destruction? Was the restoration of the nation in 1948 a fulfillment of the prophecies of the return? Clearly the return under king Cyrus was one fulfillment, but was it the only one?

Another argument is historical. For example, as far as I know, no other nation has EVER returned to its land, and become again a sovereign state, after nearly 2,000 years of exile.

I read somewhere of an atheist asking a preacher for proof of the existence of God. He answered "The Jew".

The [i]very existence[/i] of the nation and people is a witness to the power of God [i][b]to this day[/b][/i].

And why does Scripture say that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives, if Israel isn't somehow "special"?

Sorry this is rather long and maybe disjointed. These are just a few thoughts and questions, off the top of my head more or less. Hope it at least makes sense so far, whether you agree or not !;-)

Love in Him

Jeannette

Jeannette,

consider this, why is it, that satan is so ardently pursuing the extermination of the Jewish people, whether it be thru the guise of the apostate roman church, inqusitions, writings of well known "fathers" of the faith, forced conversions, pogroms, up until the days of hitler and his demonic hordes, right up until the present day, where men who follow "allah" and purport to say they are on "holy war", these "jihadists" say they will not rest until Jerusalem belongs to islam and they wipe the "zionist entity" from the map?

why do you think this is?

the enemy KNOWS the role the Jewish people and the Land of Israel play in end time prophecies, so he will do anything in his power to exterminate them (us)...anything.

bartle wrote:
Jeannette,

consider this, why is it, that satan is so ardently pursuing the extermination of the Jewish people, whether it be thru the guise of the apostate roman church, inqusitions, writings of well known "fathers" of the faith, forced conversions, pogroms, up until the days of hitler and his demonic hordes, right up until the present day, where men who follow "allah" and purport to say they are on "holy war", these "jihadists" say they will not rest until Jerusalem belongs to islam and they wipe the "zionist entity" from the map?

why do you think this is?

the enemy KNOWS the role the Jewish people and the Land of Israel play in end time prophecies, so he will do anything in his power to exterminate them (us)...anything.

Yes, that's what I thought. It is easy to understand the Enemy's hatred and persecution of Christians, but I can't see any other reason for the hatred and persecution of the Jews (probably equally intense).

Is this what Revelation 12: means? The woman has been interpreted as Israel. (There may be other possible meanings, such as being a literal woman - Mary - or the Church, but they don't seem to fit as well.)
[i][color=003366]3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven eand threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.[/color][/i]

Jeannette

I have yet to hear anyone talk on this subject and make real sense, without also offering a kind of denial to the New Covenant,

I love the term "ingrafted vine", what a Heavenly metaphor and Messianic reality, to bring the Gospel to the "nations".

Think about this: what do men worship?

money.

ungodly men, who lust after money and power.

what is the font, the spigot from which all this wealth in the 20th and 21st century flows from?

petrol.

where is the majority of the easily obtained petroleum reserves garnered?

from the lands of the sons of Ishmael.

and in a tiny sliver of land, live 5 million Jews.

You know in Revelations, how the Word describes that the merchants of the world drank from the cup of her excesses, her being the whore of babylon, and isnt it funny, that the descendants of the Persian kings who gave back plundered wealth to the exiled Jews in Nehemiah and Ezra's time, to rebuild the Temple are now Israel's most vociferous enemy.

a plus b divided by c equals d.

What does that last sentence mean?

I dont know, it just sounded enigmatic. (lol)

neil

I've had another look at the original Replacement Theology thread, and realise that there's some good stuff there that I missed the first time around, maybe best to go back there. Just wanted to get a couple of things straight in my mind about the discussion.

[u]RE the "true Israel"[/u], Paul said, "To the Jew I became as a Jew..." (1Cor 9:20 following)

...Just a minute, Paul WAS a Jew! So how come he "became as a Jew" as if he wasn't?

Because he was so freed in spirit from "Old Covenant" things that his Jewishness and nationality, his religious credentials, his theological training and Pharisaic heritage (Philippians 3) meant nothing to him any more, it was like so much garbage compared to knowing Christ.

When I was in college in a strongly Welsh-speaking area, there were some problems with the (Christian) Welsh students who couldn't really see past their Welshness, to the oneness in Christ with non Welsh students.

I said to one boy, "You are first of all a citizen of the Kingdom of God, only secondly a citizen of Wales"

We are one in Christ, whatever our ancestry, nationality or background.

Of course you know that already...

Love in Him

Jeannette

Re: not from me

bartle said

I love the term "ingrafted vine"...

If it's anywhere.... including the NIV..... ;-) please quote the whole verse for me. I'd appreciate that. Thanks.

I meant "branch".

what can you expect from a high school dropout?

in His love, neil

ps...I still havent figured out the whole calvin/armianist thing, frankly it reminds me of talmudic scholars having a go at one another over what different rabbi's wrote.

"branches" grafted into a vine...sorry.

Romans 11:11-21

sorry I dont have time to quote it, but I have to run.

Blessings ever so richly to you today, neil

John173 wrote:

...[color=0033FF]Romans
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, *goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be *saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."*

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.[/color]
[color=660000]33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"*
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"*

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
[/color]

I highlighted that last part to add my two cents.

There are a number of topics common to our faith that fall into the category of "How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" We waste an awful lot of time arguing points that God Himself calls unsearchable, so what is the point?

Because of the context one might conclude that Isreal's place in eternity just might be one of them.

The Calvinist/Arminian arguement is another one. IMHO. Not that MHO has much to do with anything.

As I said..2 cents worth.

In His Love,

Doug

You said:

"There are a number of topics common to our faith that fall into the category of "How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!"

We waste an awful lot of time arguing points that God Himself calls unsearchable, so what is the point?"

However I do find friendly discussion/argument both fun, as we bounce thoughts off each other, and very instructive. What do others think?

I am often "forced" to look again at what I believe and why. Do others, that I originally thought I disagreed with, simply have another facet of the same Truth? What makes us "take sides" over various controversial doctrines? Where are the others coming from? Where am [i]I[/i] coming from, for that matter?

Sometimes the Lord answers that in a surprising and not always comfortable manner as He "divides between joints and marrow" and exposes hidden wrong motives!

In Him

Jeannette

Re Sister Dorcas

bartle, I'm glad I asked.

"branches" grafted into a vine...sorry.

John173 said

After listening carefully to his arguements and going through the scriptures I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that...

Bartle said:

consider this, why is it, that satan is so ardently pursuing the extermination of the Jewish people, whether it be thru the guise of the apostate roman church, inqusitions, writings of well known "fathers" of the faith, forced conversions, pogroms, up until the days of hitler and his demonic hordes, right up until the present day, where men who follow "allah" and purport to say they are on "holy war", these "jihadists" say they will not rest until Jerusalem belongs to islam and they wipe the "zionist entity"

ANSWER:

Jeremiah 9:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. 16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and [b]I[God] will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.[/b]

Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; [b]and I will draw out a sword after them.[/b]

Ezekiel 5:12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and [b]I will draw out a sword after them.[/b] (Emphasis mine)

Special people?? I sure am glad that I am in the church, the beloved of God

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were NOT my people; and her beloved, which was NOT beloved.

Compliments wrote:
Bartle said:

consider this, why is it, that satan is so ardently pursuing the extermination of the Jewish people, whether it be thru the guise of the apostate roman church, inqusitions, writings of well known "fathers" of the faith, forced conversions, pogroms, up until the days of hitler and his demonic hordes, right up until the present day, where men who follow "allah" and purport to say they are on "holy war", these "jihadists" say they will not rest until Jerusalem belongs to islam and they wipe the "zionist entity"

ANSWER:

Jeremiah 9:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. 16 I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and [b]I[God] will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.[/b]

Ezekiel 5:2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; [b]and I will draw out a sword after them.[/b]

Ezekiel 5:12 A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and [b]I will draw out a sword after them.[/b] (Emphasis mine)

Special people?? I sure am glad that I am in the church, the beloved of God

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were NOT my people; and her beloved, which was NOT beloved.

What about Jeremiah 33:23 following, and many other scriptures that indicate that the Lord still loves His ancient people too, and has not totally cast them off?

[i][color=000099]23 Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying, 24 “Have you not considered what these people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord has chosen, He has also cast them off’? Thus they have despised My people, as if they should no more be a nation before them.25 “Thus says the Lord: ‘If My covenant is not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth, 26 then I will cast away the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his descendants to be rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For [b]I will cause their captives to return, and will have mercy on them.’[/b] ” [/color][/i]

Romans 11:1 following
[i][color=000099] I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? f“I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.[/color][/i]

Special people?? I sure am glad that I am in the church, the beloved of God

Romans 11 again:
[i][color=000099]17 And if some of the branches were broken off, uand you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 [b]do not boast against the branches[/b]. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.[/color][/i]

Maybe you don't intend to "boast against the branches", but it does sound as if you are!

In Him

Jeannette