Ben Israel Fire

Jesus does not teach by fires or illness:

A very pervasive and distructive doctrine in The Church today is the "sovereignty of God" teaching.

Postings about the fire at Ben Israel and Art Katz's illness show that some of the posters hold this unbiblical view of how God deals with His saints.

Art, himself, holds this unbiblical view. It is no surprise that those who look to him for leadership, hold the same view.

I pray that Art will turn from this view. It will mean that Art will have to reject much of the teaching he respects from people like Karl Bart and Charles Spurgeon.

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Is God not sovereign?

Hello Bud, welcome to SermonIndex. Please respond to the thread by using the "Reply" button on the posting. It makes things much easier to follow.

Here is the link;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15379&forum=35#119706]Fire at Ben Israel[/url]

If you could respond there, we can remove this posting. Thank you.

Art will not turn from this view because it is not a "view" as in a mere doctrinal belief.

It is a prophetic understanding, not intellectually but spiritually, of God as God.

Mike that is completely unnecessary-- this is a thread completely in contrary to the main thread. I would like this thread to remain open. The main thread CANNOT be allowed to become an argument pool of theological debates. That thread should stand as prayer and counsel for Art, please.

Jordan

Jordan,

Very well brother. Please disregard, we can leave this open, with one caveat;

... thread CANNOT be allowed to become an argument pool of theological debates

Here, but with charity ... please.

BudTexas wrote:
Jesus does not teach by fires or illness:

A very pervasive and distructive doctrine in The Church today is the "sovereignty of God" teaching.

Postings about the fire at Ben Israel and Art Katz's illness show that some of the posters hold this unbiblical view of how God deals with His saints.

Art, himself, holds this unbiblical view. It is no surprise that those who look to him for leadership, hold the same view.

I pray that Art will turn from this view. It will mean that Art will have to reject much of the teaching he respects from people like Karl Bart and Charles Spurgeon.

In think you have missed the point of Katz, Barth, Spurgeon, Schlink and the like... It is not so much a matter of God [b]inflicting[/b] illness and such, but of God [b]utilising[/b] it, and therefore indirectly teaching us by these means.

Consider Job. God directed Satan's attention to Job, then approved Satan's request to smite him, and then never corrected Job of his opinion that God has afflicted him. And note that Job was "taught" something through this experience, which seems to have required the actual experience to learn. Before the whole ordeal, Job had the notion that God was going to do bad this, if he didn't preform rightly (we see this by his daily sacrifice, just in case one of his children had sinned, not because they had sinned). After the ordeal, Job was brought to the realisation that he didn't understand God's ways, and that God was worthy of his affection, and not just obedience.

Also, consider the following:

[b]12[/b] Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.
[b]13[/b] Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in innocency.
[b]14[/b] For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning.
[b]Ps 73:12-14[/b]

[b]8[/b] We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
[b]9[/b] Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
[b]10[/b] Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
[b]11[/b] For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
[b]12[/b] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
[b]17[/b] For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
[b]18[/b] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
[b]2 Co 4:8-12,17-18[/b]

[b]7[/b] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
[b]8[/b] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
[b]9[/b] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
[b]10[/b] Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
[b]2 Co 12:7-10[/b]

*edit*

If God does not teach by fires and illness, then Jesus death had no meaning.

One of Art Katz's favorite expressions is: "Suffering reveals, and absolute suffering reveals absolutely."

This is not scripture of course.

Suffering does reveal things. Often it reveals that God's word has shallow roots in us.

Affliction and persecution coming for "the words sake" is very effective.

Jesus compared the sun rising on a plant to affiction and persecution.

The sun rises daily. It is the most common of events, totally anticipated. We can go out in the sun and get a nice dose of vitamin D or get burned badly.

Those holding the unscriptural sovereignty of God doctrine (and there is a scripture sovereignty of God doctrine) attribute the sun burn to God's sovereignty as well as the vitamin D.

When the temptation of sickness comes they let down their sheild of faith thinking God is dealing with them. Their sword of the word of God is in its sheath.

They don't fight the good fight of faith, they lie down on a bed of demonically inspired thinking.

This does not mean Art or any of the rest are demonic but the doctrine is.

Hi everyone.

BudTexas, how are you?

I am having some trouble with some things you've stated here. For instance,

"Those holding the unscriptural sovereignty of God doctrine (and there is a scripture sovereignty of God doctrine) attribute the sun burn to God's sovereignty as well as the vitamin D.

When the temptation of sickness comes they let down their sheild of faith thinking God is dealing with them. Their sword of the word of God is in its sheath."

Bud, are you saying that God does not afflict His children? I don't know if that is exactly what you mean but this seems to cut against the testimony of many of the saints in the Bible. I did a briefe search of some passages of testimony and declaration from these saints of old and I'd like to share some of them if I may...

Hosea...

[i]Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.[/i]

Isaiah...

[i]Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.[/i]

the Psalmist...

[i] I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me.[/i]

and Job...

[i]...he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.[/i]

[i]...when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.[/i]

and Solomon...

[i]The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil[/i]

and the author of Hebrews also...

[i]...whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.[/i]

and David too...

[i] Remove thy stroke away from me: I am consumed by the blow of thine hand.[/i]

[i]When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth[/i]

These are some pretty heavy things Bud, but they do attribute them all to God, you know?

I remember a few years ago, right before I moved here, I got very sick. It was bad, and I had to go to work too. But I remembered a passage of scripture that I must have read sometime before, and I remember asking my wife to read it to me. It comforted me.

This is the passage, from the 41st Psalm, a Psalm of David

Blessed is he that
considereth the poor:
the Lord will deliver him
in time of trouble.
The Lord will preserve him,
and keep him alive;
and he shall be blessed
upon the earth:
and thou wilt not deliver him
unto the will of his enemies.
[i]The Lord will strengthen him
upon the bed of languishing:
thou wilt make all his bed
in his sickness.[/i]
I said, Lord,
be merciful unto me:
heal my soul;
for I have sinned against thee.

It's a hard thing to understand sometimes I think, but it does seem this is a part of His way with us.

I wish you well,

Chris

Jesus not Job is the center of our understanding of God and how He relates to us and we to Him.

We live in a post cross, post pentecost time.

Every thing changed with Christ's coming.

We learn from the examples in the old testament but filter all of it through the new.

The new fills up the old just like a marriage fills up an engagement.

Those who maintain an unscriptural sovereignty of God position seldom quote Jesus' commands like "heal the sick, raise the dead..."

Did Jesus really mean this? Yes!

Why don't we live at the level Jesus gave us? Because we are "fools and slow at heart to believe ALL the prophets have said concerning Christ..."

Christ Himself being the "great prophet" Moses spoke of and whom Peter spoke.

I don't live at the level I should either. I am a fool and slow of heart to what ever degree I fall short.

I am saved, I have eternal life in Christ. When my judgment comes however, I will see all that could have been but was left undone because of my foolishness.