Comments on healing

Hi,

I've been listening and following so many discussions here and they have all been a blessing in one form or another. As a witness for Jesus Christ I just love sharing my thoughts but have hesitated thus far. You'll have to forgive me for my fascination with healing but it is the testimony of my salvation. I surrendered my life to Christ because he healed me. Due to this I have developed a certain attitude toward believning God for healing. This may not fit your theology but I thought I would begin to share these with you (one at a time, perhaps for brevity's sake) and, if you wish you may comment as you see fit. My hope is that it will help some to trust - simply trust.

Perhaps one of the earliest comments I made as I saw it in Scripture is, "One doesn't have to die sick simply because they are old."

The basis of my argument is Moses. The Bible says his eye was not dimmed and his strength had not failed.

Gwen, a dear old friend of mine who has gone to be with the Lord now was terminally ill and in dreadful pain. She had asked that the Lord would just take her home to be with him. (how can someone not be moved by another's grief?) She heard me say this and, somehow she fell in love with the statement. We watched her deteriate to the point she was unable to attend church anymore. One day my father - pastor of the church she attended - took comunion to her because we felt for the lack of felowship she was receiving. He prayed for her to be healed. Soon she was back in church and able to walk unaided. She moved north to a retirement village nearer her grand daughter where she was a great witness and an encouragement to many. Just before Christmas last year she wrote us that she had a heart attack but, we were not to worry about her, she was alright. January this year another heart attack took her into the Lord's presence. What a joy to see her die with confidence rather than an attitude of defeat!

Take this thought, mull over it; it may be just what you need.

May the God of all grace be your comfort,

Kerry

Wonderful testimony! I am so glad the lady was healed. Now mind if I tell you one as well?

When our daughter was 24 years old she was diagnosed with glioblastoma. During that time, she was anointed with oil. Thirteen months later, she went to meet her maker. She had been anointed three times and many prayers were offered for her by many people. Many thought it would be tragic for this young wife and mother of two to die: she was needed.

But let me tell you what the LORD did: when she died, she did not have ANY pain; the only meds in her were the steroids she had taken to reduce swelling. No pain meds at all. Now if you ask people how frequently this happens, you will find the answer is "rarely". Most victims have a lot of pain. Did God answer our prayers? Yes: he said I am going to take her home to be with me and I am going to make sure she will have little pain during the time of her sickness. And God gave us an abundance of grace to deal with this loss.

After we laid the remains to rest the LORD helped me deal with a problem that was sure to come. He asked me a question: how will you deal with a story of someone who was supernaturally healed BUT your DD was not? I decided that God choses (I read Job) whosoever he will to heal. Some he will heal and others he will allow to die. Simple as that. Regina's mission on this planet was completed and for her to live beyond that would be counterproductive. To allow her to be ill before she died had its benefits: it gave her time to make restitution where needed; gave the family time to come to terms with her possible passing and in the process make lots of good memories and to say "Good-bye". We learned how to live: one day at a time and knew that if the LORD were to call her home, He will then give us the grace to handle it and He did.

Do you know what? I am glad she has run the race and is done. Brother, can you even begin to imagine how much that means to a mom? I miss her, but I also know she is freed from the trials of life...she is much better off being with the LORD then living here and have to fight the devil/evil. So when I hear of someone who was ready to die and they did, in my spirit I sense a joy. Dying is not the worst thing that can happen to a Christian! But do you know is the worst thing? To backslide and turn away from God, to become a prodigal. This is a whole lot worse. I would much rather have my children get cancer and die, being right with the LORD then apostasize and then fear for their soul! Been there - done that!

Now when I hear of someone who was supernaturally healed, I can say with a clear heart and mind: Well, Praise the LORD! I am glad for you.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

PS: (EDIT) Just thought I would share a different perspective from what you wrote..in no way do I want to diminish your pleasure of having seen an ill person healed.

Ginnyrose,

I first read your post about half an hour ago. By the time I was done my eyes were filled with tears. But not tears of sorrow, rather they were tears of joy. I can't help it. This happens every time my heart is moved toward an increased love for our precious Savior.

[color=000099] [u]Psalm 116:15[/u]

Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His saints.
[/color]

Somehow it always feels like God has reached down and touched my heart with His whenever this happens. How joyous it is to know that He is glorified even in the death of his beloved children. How deep and fathomless is this grace of God. Hallelujah!

[color=000099][u]Psalm 150[/u]

Praise the Lord!

Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty firmament!

2 Praise Him for His mighty acts;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness!

3 Praise Him with the sound of the trumpet;
Praise Him with the lute and harp!

4 Praise Him with the timbrel and dance;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and flutes!

5 Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with clashing cymbals!

6 Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord![/color]

In HIS Love...now more than ever,

Doug

Hi Ginnyrose,

Thank you for your testimony. Perhaps a second comment that I hope gives you some peace concerning my faith. I have said, Hebrews 11 shows clearly that there are two sides to faith. Faith on the one hand receives deliverance but, on the other hand it lives in death. Some are freed by faith but others die in faith. Should I live by faith or die in faith it is still faith and neither one diminishes the other. We can easily accept both if we live as Job and leave our trust in God. Both in abounding and in need Jesus is still the victor.

I am sure you miss your daughter but it won't be forever. I hope you can take some comfort from this and know that I weep with you in those moments when the pain cuts deep. My mum had a sister with down syndrome. I never met her as she died before I was born but my mum never told me of her until I was 42 years old. I am sure you can feel her pain which was accentuated by the fact that she saw her father push that sister away because she was less than perfect. How sad! (My mum's kinda special to me)

Thank you for your testimony and I look forward to rejoicing with you when you are once more united.

Love Kerry

Doug and Kerry,

Thank you for your kind words...

Mind if I share another lesson I learned? Since I have so much empathy for parents who have a terminally ill child, my heart goes out to them in ways most cannot imagine. (You see, I have learned how to access the comfort of God: by submitting the situation to God. When you do this you are opening the door to God's comfort.)I have learned that most mothers have a deep anger about the situation. They have closed minds to any suggestion of how to handle terminal illness in their child: they want healing. Period. And nothing else matters much. People close to the parent are grieved when they see this anger demonstrated and wish so much they could help and most often the parent resents any measure of comfort offered: they would rather wallow in their anger, pity, then get help.

I have also learned the value of chaplains who serve in hospitals because the divorce rate is real high among families who have experienced terminal illness, and severe injuries incurred because of accidents. They need comfort and a chaplain is one who can render that comfort and assistance at the point of need. Just maybe God is calling someone on this forum to prepare himself/herself for this ministry? (I checked into this type of ministry, wanting to serve under a chaplain, but they only wanted ordained ministers and so I was disqualified!)

Blessings,
ginnyrose

I have seen people make healing/health an idol.
However, Romans 8:38,39 declares the truth of it.
Ginnyrose's ministry isn't limited by any man's rules. Where there is love, there is ministry.

Physical Healing is part of our salvation.

Sickness does not glorify God as sin does not glorify God as demonic oppresion does not glorify God. We are to glorify God in our mortal bodies.

It is always God's will for us to be well. It is always God's will for us to be free from demonic oppression as it is always His will for us to be free from sin.

Do we ever miss it in these areas? Yes we do.

Does God still love us? Yes He does.

Physical healing is a huge part of what Christ paid for. We misrepresent God when we even hint that God is not all that interested in peoples' physical needs.

Jesus spent much time and energy "healing all that came to Him". Never did He turn away someone who came for healing. Often He just healed without being asked. Never did he even imply that God did not want to heal.

He commands us to "heal the sick".

God is absolutely clear about what He wants. We are the ones with the problem.

God has not let us down. We have let Him down. He is so good, so full of loving kindness and has given us His power and authority to continue the life and ministry of Jesus on Earth.

I am glad that I am the problem and not God. I can change, He will not change. But then again, He does not need to change, does He.

BudTexas

Like you I have very strong beliefs concerning healing. I often say I refuse to believe that God does not heal everybody. I know experientially that many are not healed but I say that is our fault and not God's.

To explain to those who have suffered death of a loved one let me say, once I say that God does not heal everybody I conclude saying, God does not (will not) heal me. I cannot allow unbelief if I am to receive from God.

However, I think we can take a lesson from another posting which says, "people often make an idol out of healing". Christ was compassionate, not condemnatory and so we should be too. As I have stated, whether I am healed by my faith or I die in faith it is still faith. The Bible also teaches us that each will stand or fall to his own master. In the Church that is Jesus Christ. I strongly feel the pain of those who have suffered loss and, who knows? One day it might just be you or I who need such comfort.

I do believe it is God's will to heal, and to heal every time but, since God has not given me all the answers I must leave Him to answer those questions I cannot.

Once I had to counsel a lady on the verge of committing suicide. I prayed earnestly for the right words to say. Another was there also as a counsellor. As she told us of all the wrong things she had done the other said, "No wonder you're in this state." I felt a check in my spirit and asked if he would mind waiting on God for His answer. He left and I was left alone to counsel her. All I had were words of God's love - that is all that came to me. She, herself confirmed that this was God's words to her and she had already received them. It is hard to describe the transformation that took place in her. Remember, a soft answer turns away wrath.

When we minister healing let us do so with grace.

God bless,

Kerry.

God is absolutely clear about what He wants. We are the ones with the problem.

Ouch, that one hurt. My mom, who is one of the godliest, truest, most faithful Christians I have ever known, was stricken with polio at the age of 30. She is now 81. She was never healed of the affliction. Do I believe it's because she was in error somehow in her walk? Not a chance. IN FACT, she thanks God for not experiencing healing because, through it all, she learned to fully and totally depend on Him and His grace for practically everything in life. She says she would not know Him today as she does had she not been ill and paralyzed. When she couldn't get out of bed due to her paralysis she read the Bible and got to know God's Word through and through with the help of the Holy Spirit. And God manifests His grace and love to her every day - there is always a parking spot for her near the front of the store, people offer to help her when she is out shopping, just little things like that that she knows and believes to be sent from God to help her and to reward her for her faithfulness to Him.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on this issue.

Mia and Bailey, Dugan, Buddy & Agnes the beagles.

Thanks Mom! I find this notion that it is God's will to heal all to be utter rot. Does God still heal? Absolutely. But He is the sovereign One. He is the One Who chooses to heal or not. In all my life I know of no godlier people than those who have suffered through severe physical affliction while remaining faithful to God. Look at the apostle Paul! He prayed three times to be healed. Did he lack faith or the inability to grasp all that God intended for his life?

[color=000099]2 Corinthians 12:7-10 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me,[/color] [color=990033]"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness."[/color][color=000099] Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.[/color]

Get back to the Word of God and you may learn something about His ways. This word of faith based doctrine is pure heresy.

In defense of the Truth,

Doug

Thank you for your coment.

Actually, that was the point I was trying to make with Gwen's story. It was her attitude of faith that was so refreshing. She did die after a second heart attack but she was confidently serving God. As Christians we should not fear - that is the point. Now, I'm not talking about those moments of fear when we are tried and tested but the constant fear that paralyses our faith.

A family friend, Yvonne Stegman also had polio and spent all the time I knew her in leg braces enabling her to get around. But her faith knew no bounds. Her favourite hymn was "And Can it Be". Everyone was moved everytime she sang with all her heart, "My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth, and followed thee!" And that she did with leg braces and all.

Healing and health are not the mark of great spirituality but of God's goodness. We who have been healed ought to be thankful for God's grace; not judgemental toward those who are sick.

However, as I say to my wife (who suffers a back injury and has done so since childhood) while ever there is life there is hope so, why not believe God to heal you? Don't get in a knot over it though for I have never found that to accomplish anything.

I love your mom's testimony. She lives with the same greatful heart as I do. That's wonderful.

Love,

Kerry

Thank you, Doug. I appreciate your apprehension.

Actually the text you quoted is not a good one in your defence because there is nothing to confirm Paul was speaking of an illness. In fact, if you look further at the context it appears he was speaking of the persecution he suffered where ever he went. But God's answer is a word well worth noted. God's grace is always sufficient - no matter what we face. However that grace does not say that I cannot or, should not be healed. It is never heresy to take God at his word. It was God who declared, "I am the Lord that healeth thee." It was the Holy Spirit who declared through the prophet, "He sent His Word and he healed them." It was the Holy Spirit who lead Matthew to write (8:17), "That it might be fulfilled, Himself took our infirmities and bore our sicknesses." One might wonder who it is who needs to return to the Word of God?

If your faith is for God to sustain you in your illness then that is your faith - have it to God and yourself. If your faith is to be healed - then do likewise. In all this we should remember the greater commandment of God says, "I desire mercy." Let us be merciful and compassionate toward one another. Let us rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. That is always the best way.

Keep defending the truth and be ever ready to learn of Christ for, as he said, "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Love

Kerry

Kerry Lou:

Excellent words and correct interpretation of "Paul's thorn in the flesh", persecution.

Perhaps it was human persecutors. Perhaps demonic. The Jews dogged Paul to his death.

Paul may have been using the thorn terminology as was used in Numbers 33:55 "But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell."

God clearly allows and promises affliction and persecution. This allowance for persecution is for the benefit of the persecutor. If God did not allow persecution then the perscutors, (of whom Saul, later Paul the Apostle was a prime example) would not have the opportunity to hear the Word of God and be saved.

John:

That God has already provided healing for everyone is scripture.

Isaiah 53:4-5 prophecies about it, " 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Matthew 8: 16-17 confirms that Isaiah was including physical healing "16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."

Peter confirms that God has sovereignly provided healing for all in 1 Peter 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

John what you are tripping over is an unbiblical sovereignty of God doctrine.

God is sovereign. From the beginning He has said what He meant and meant what He said. And from the beginning we humans have been adding to it and/or taking away from it.

God's grace for eternal life is for everyone but few receive it. Nothing more needs to be done except for a person to receive the finished work of Christ.

In like manner God's grace for physical healing is for everyone and nothing needs to be done by The Lord except for us to take the faith we have also been given and receive the grace.

Easier said then done has been my experience. A good place to start however is by believing scripture and acknowledging where we have denied the Word, added to it or taken from it.

We will also have to acknowledge where good old aunt Sue, Mom, Granpa, pastor, his seminary, my denomination and most of Christianity has missed it.

Hi Kerrylou,

I re assert that the scripture I quoted is actually very applicable to this discussion for three reasons.

First: The thorn was in his [i]flesh[/i]. The greek word is sarx which is means the physical body and is also used to represent our fallen adamic nature.

Second: the thorn was [i]in[/i] his flesh. As in having a residence there. Persecution is outward and occasional.

Third: While Paul does indeed mention persecutions as one of those life difficulties he takes pleasure in, the first thing he mentions is infirmities. It makes sense to mention this first as he just got done mentioning his thorn in the flesh.

In the greek; infirmity-astheneia {as-then'-i-ah}

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
a) of the body
1) its native weakness and frailty
2) feebleness of health or sickness

b) of the soul
1) want of strength and capacity requisite
a) to understand a thing
b) to do things great and glorious
c) to restrain corrupt desires
d) to bear trials and troubles

One could argue from this definition that he may be refering to the want of strength and capacity requisite to bear trials and troubles in an attempt to bolster the persecution theory, except that he mentions persecution seperately from infirmities in addition to mentioning distress seperately. It could also be argued that he was to his want of strength and capacity requisite to restrain corrupt desires. I have heard the theory that this thorn in the flesh was a besetting sin that he could not overcome. Frankly I reject that idea all together.

In addition to this text, it is believed by historians that Paul did indeed have some physical deformity that caused him to limp. It is also believed that he had poor eyesight. He didn't actually write his epistles, but dictated them to a scribe. When he did write in his own hand he used large letters. Hmmm.

It is late now so I'll sign off for now. In closing et me say that you sound like a sincere and caring brother in the Lord. I believe [i]very[/i] strongly in what I've said so I may come off a bit contentious. Indeed I am contending for what I firmly believe to be the truth. Ultimately we are brothers in the Lord who will be rejoicing together in His presence. I hope we both keep this in mind as I know you won't change my mind and I'd be somewhat surprised if I succeeded in 'enlightening' you. :-)

May the Lord richly blees you and yours,

Doug

PS: My bro from Texas, I have not forgotten you! We shall have words yet! :-x

hi John , I definately dissagree that it is Gods will for some to be sick or stay sick. To me it would be like saying God had second thoughts about the work of the cross.I got to tell you there is nothing like laying hands on somebody and seeing them get their miracle.I used to think ,that somehow healing was Gods cruel joke.But I now know healing is tied directly to faith and the prophetic.People have more faith in doctors and medicine than God.Anyone who goes to a 3rd world country will see much more in the realm of miracles and healing.Some people are saved and some never get saved. i look at this in a thousand ways but it doesnt change truth. And the truth is - It IS GOds will that none perish but that all come to repentance.Why? Idont know why but it connects to Gods character.So if I question healing, Ipersonally believe this stikes at Gods character."By his stipes ye were healed" this paints with a very broad brush.If I pray for someone and they dont get healed it is not Gods fault,what we have at this point is an obsticle.ANd Ive got good news, God can move any obsticle.Healing is definately a work of the cross. He doesent want any of us sick.If I walk by what I see I will question Gods word. It is better to adhere to the word and question why my prayers arent answered.Did you know you can actally change your own testimony?If your testimony is sickness speak to that sickness and tell it "YOU WILL MOVE,YOU WILL LEAVE, I WONT HAVE THIS TESTIMONY,I REFUSE SICKNESS". Ido this all the time. It used to never work for me [even as a born again beliver] but then Jesus showed me faith and the prophetic.Now I walk In a whole new realm.Iam nothing and I am nobody but this nobody has tapped into something awesome. May Gods best be yours,David {.....miracles? one answer...go for it]

Bud,

Let me take another stab at this. I understand why you believe as you do. Certainly I agree that it is not God's [i]desire[/i] that anyone suffer. Yet it was His [i]will[/i] that His own Son suffer. It was not His [i]desire[/i] that Adam sin and be expelled from the garden. Yet, He knew from the foundations of the world that creating Adam and Eve would ultimately require the greatest sacrifice ever made. He knew we would suffer as a result of the fall, yet He chose in His utter sovereignty to create us anyway. Suffering is not His desire, but He will not allow it to stand in the way of His [i]will[/i].

So how does this relate to healing? Because we live in a fallen world it is necessary that we be taken through a lifelong process called sanctification. This process [i]requires[/i] suffering on our part. It is inescapable. Suffering causes us to see just how weak we are and causes us to draw near to God and [i]His[/i] strength. This was the purpose of Paul's thorn. Ultimately God is glorified as we grow in grace. What is it that god wants from us? To be glorified.

Now, in the case of healing verses not healing someone. God ultimately will get a greater degree of glory from a life surrendered to Him whom He has [i]sovereignly[/i] chosen not to heal than He does from those who are healed. When healing does occur we do indeed marvel and give God praise, but the healing is soon forgotten, or at the very least the manifestation of His grace is no longer clearly evident. A life that has [i]not[/i] received this healing touch becomes a living, breathing, non-stop testimony to the grace of God. It is an incredible thing to meet a saint who has suffered some disability all their life. These people exude joy! What glory God receives as we marvel over this. Which is the greater miracle? This is also true of those who have suffered the loss of a cherished relative, be it their child, sibling, spouse or parent. Those who have gotten through this have a unique degree of compassion for others and often have a gentleness to their demeanor that was wrought in them through the suffering they underwent.

But, you say, the scripture says...as you quote again Isaiah and Peter, "by His stripes we [i]are[/i] healed." The scripture also states that we [i]are[/i] righteous! Yet John states that he who says he is without sin is a liar. In the here and now we discover that sin still abides in us. How then can we be called righteous? Our God is the God Who calls those things that are not as though they are (Rom 4:17). He can do this because He sees the end from the beginning. The fullness of this promise, just as the fullness of our promised righteousness won't be fully realized until that final day.

[color=000066]Rev 21:1-4 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

1 Cor 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."[/color]

What is death? (specifically physical death) It is God sovereignly chosing not to heal our corruptible flesh of whatever current ailment it is suffering from just prior to expiring.

I sincerely hope that you come to your senses brother. This notion that God would heal anyone if they only could get ahold of the right understanding and faith is misguided at the least.

In Christ

Doug

Onr more thought. Which has the greater faith? He who receives healing or he who does not and continues to glorify God whilst suffering?

He who God heals may just be the one who would utterly fail to glorify God in the face of such testing.

Hi, i'm new here. I'm a college student who serves at a local church in the Northeast. I just wanted to comment real quick. I'm sorry to hear about the lost loved ones on this thread. I in no way mean to offend anyone, but I just wanted to say that some of my family have been healed of cancer without even having hands layed upon them. Jesus paid the price for their sicknesses. It wasn't a matter of whether or not they could recieve their healing; it was a matter of whether or not they had faith Jesus paid the price for their healing.

Jesus already paid the price; we can't pay it. But now that we have the Holy Spirit residing in us (the power of God), we just have to take authority over these things by the word of our mouth sometimes. Just like Jesus spoke to (and about) things and conditions all throughout the Gospels. Not to say sometimes we don't need to stand with others in faith, and not to say the Holy Spirit doesn't operate by touch. But look at the centurion in Luke 7:1-10. He told Jesus all He had to do was speak and his servant would be healed. And Jesus afterward said he had not seen "such great faith even in Israel."

And we are now the sons and daughters of God. Not mere servants or slaves (like a Muslim would profess), but actual sons and daughters. He sees us and loves us as His own, and he has deposited the Holy Spirit in us to operate in the power.

I'm kind of off topic now, so I'm going to stop. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but I just wanted to share a little bit of the loving Father I know.

As far as suffering goes; I believe there is suffering other than sickness we are supposed to go through. James 1:4 "Let patience have her perfect work." Whenever I am broken, I go through more suffering than I ever have physically, and it pretty much consumes my whole day. But this type of suffering brings about life, not death.