Where do revivalists land? Reformed or Armenian?

Maybe this discussion has already been discussed but where to many revivalist preachers land theologically between the spectrum of the Reformation and Armenian camp?

Most of the revivalists were arminians,i dont think that the calvinists ever liked that term, may be for the reformed churches being a revivalist implied that man is a moral agent who plays a very important part in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.So calvinists lay much emphases on the sovereignity of God but underestemate the important part the responsability of man in a revival, and for that reason even though in the past they experienced powerful awakenings they were sporadic and not believed to be expected very often.

Anyway the methosdist revival started with Whitefield i think rather than with Wesley and the moravian church in london played a very important role at the beginning of the movement but the root problem is that the calvinist theology doesn't lieve much room for an ongoing revival.

I think you should go back and read Church History a bit more.

Some of the first "revivals" came through men like Augustine, who was for all intents and purposes Reformed. It was his battle against Pelagius that helped set forth the Doctrine of man's depravity. This is important as true revivals focus on sin, and repentance.

We see the effects of Augustine's views influencing men like John Huss, Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, and the other Reformers. Of course to say that the Reformation was a Revival would be easy, as they that sat in darkness had seen a great light.

John Knox who led the Reformation in England was a Calvinist, John Owen was a Calvinist, and wrote a wonderful warning called "A Display of Arminianism" which describes the dangers of the same doctrine which had been declared unbiblical by many before him, and the Synod of Dordt.

Jonathan Edwards who was used in The Great Awakening in America was Reformed, George Whitefield was most definitely Calvinistic, as were the Puritans which includes men like Bunyan, Thomas Boston, Joseph Alleine, Richard Baxter, and many many others.

The revival in Wales in the 1800s was through the Welsh Calvinistic Methodist group with men like Howell Harris. Evan Roberts in 1904 was used to revive Wales, and his affiliation was Welsh Calvinistic Methodist.

C.T. Studd who was used to revive parts of Africa was Calvinist, William Carey, the father of modern missions was Calvinist, and actuall had to fight against hyper-Calvinists to go to India.

There have been Arminian minded men who have been used of God for revival such as John Wesley.

One point that must be understood, is that though many of these men held to Arminianism, they prayed like Calvinists as does anyone who believes God is sovereign. The problem today is that so few know what Jacob Arminius taught, and what his disciples were trying to put forth in the Synod of Dordt.

Those who believed that a sovereign God ruled and sustained the Earth were the ones who cried out for Him to do a work in men's hearts. Of course this would not be needed if every man could freely choose God on their own.

Here is an excerpt from Spurgeon's sermon "Free Will-A Slave"
You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer—for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. [b]An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist.[/b] He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying, "Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them." That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that.

The whole sermon can be found here[url=http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm]Free Will-A Slave[/url]

I hope this helps you. :-)

Wesley and the moravian church in london

The Moravians were Reformed in their Theology, as they were descendants of the Hussites, or the followers of Jon Huss, who was a reformer before the official Reformation.

Wesley was converted at Aldersgate in a meeting while hearing the introduction to the Epistle to the Romans by ..... Martin Luther! Who was Reformed in his theology.

If anything, I think you may be wrong in stating that Calvinists quench revivals when they start as they consistently give God alone the credit for this work, while Arminians would say that man is determining the move of God, and His outpouring. As we can see throughout revival history, God withdraws His Spirit whenever man begins to get full of himslef, and think that he has any part in what God is doing.

I've noticed no has yet mentioned Charles Finney - God's wonderful, blessed wrench in the wheel of revival theology. Just when we think we have revival all figured out - WHAM! Finney the "heretic" (neither a theological Calvinist/Puritan [i]or[/i] a traditonal Wesleyan Arminian) comes on the scene and entire demographics change, secular universities shut-down, jails empty out, cities repent.

:-)

I love God.

Brother Paul

The greatest revival movement to date is the Pentecostal movement that started in 1906. And this movement is grounded in the Wesleyan-Holiness (arminian) tradition. Such might irk some of you wrong, but, the Great Awakenings in Britain and the United States were much smaller in comparison.

Revival hinges on the cultural Christian who rediscovers the Gospel, and is awakened to a personal need for decisive repentence from the lust of the flesh and the love of the world, reconciliation towards God singuarly through the blood of the Lamb, and an abiding relationship with Jesus Christ that produces holy character before God and man. As Jonathan Edwards put it to his 'churched' congregation "There is such a thing as conversion."

Today the bifurcation of modern calvinism and modern arminism is a distraction that bears little resemblance to the gritty monolithic message of those calvinists and arminians from the great revival periods. Both Whitefield and Wesley were of one mind on the absolute need for a person to be born again and of the nessecity for holiness for eternal life.

Today each side tries to ascribe apathy and carnality to the other. The arminians accuse the calvinists of cheap grace and lawlessness while the calvinists sees the repetitive altar visits of the arminian as a cheap imitation of Roman Catholicism.

In truth, today neither side today faithfully represents the heartcry of their forefathers. Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards, Spurgeon, and perhaps even Finney shared a stronger resemblance to one another then do their modern camp followers. The more we rediscover being born again, we more we discover that calvinism and arminianism, as modeled with excellence, can niether hinder nor aid in salvation...if a person under either camp would open the door of their hearts, then Christ promises to enter and fellowship with that person.

Blessings,

MC

The more we rediscover being born again, we more we discover that calvinism and arminianism, as modeled with excellence, can niether hinder nor aid in salvation...if a person under either camp would open the door of their hearts, then Christ promises to enter and fellowship with that person.

A tremendous amen.

This is such a broad question. Historically more Calvinists there have been than Arminianists for numerous reasons.

Historical "revivalists":

Arminianism:
Charles Finney, John Wesley, Leonard Ravenhill

Calvinism (5-Point):
Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Ian Paisley

A bit of both:
Billy Sunday, Evan Roberts

May have forgot some but that's all I could think of at the moment.

Edit: Okay Spurgeon probably shouldn't be classified as a "revivalist," more of a pastor/preacher in general so I took him off.

Jordan

Revival is not a monopoly of calvinists or arminians. God is allmighty and sovereign but he always will pour out his Spirit when godly men by thier prayers will rend heaven by force. God even will overlook our theological errors when He finds not heads with the "correct doctrines" but hearts on fire, men with a childlike faith who by faith will take hold of the promises of God in the Bible and will travail in prayer till heavens bow down to bless the souls of men.

Dead theology is useless, God has never limited his blessings to man-made theologies, the peitist movement in germany was a renewal among the lutherans, the Great awakening of america was spearheaded by calvinist puritans and the methodist revival was mostly arminian (it's calvinist branch was powerful mostly in wales).

The second great awakening started through the instrumentality of James McGready but i think the calvinist theology was "soften" by "innovations" and it were the methodists and baptists who were most succesfull in soul winning and became the predominant denominations in 19th sentury america.

But i dear to say that the person who "incarnated" better then anyother the word revivalist was Charles G. Finney Those calvinist theologians presbyterian and baptist ( the majority of the southern baptists are not considered today calvinists) dare to brand Finney as heretic. How come that even his opposers like Lyman Beecher (a well known boston preacher) who "fought" agaist Finney at last when Finney came to boston spoke highly of the revival work of Finney.

Non of the presbyterians synods branded Finney as heretic or excommunicated him,no one dared do it because the mark and finger of God was evident in his revivals, even reports from presbyterians who were send to examine the revivals and it's "new measures" spoke highly of Finney's work and the genuin religious revivals he was instrumental.

We can be very "theologically correct" but spiritually wrong, God is more preocupied with our hearts then heads he touches the heart, while the theologians fight their intelectual battles God i'm sure is looking for a man of childlike faith who will give no "rest" to Almighty till heavens hear his voice and God comes down to envade the hearts of men.

We can be very "theologically correct" but spiritually wrong

Amen. It was Ravenhill who said, "theology can be as straight as a gun-barrel...and just as empty."

Why did God use a semi-Pelagian like Finney, whose theology, it is commonly agreed, was sorely flawed? Why wasn't, say, Asahel Nettleton - a solid Calvinist - used in the same magnitude? Is revival really a matter of theology, or more a matter of the fallow ground being torn up?

Quote :

Amen. It was Ravenhill who said, "theology can be as straight as a gun-barrel...and just as empty."

Why did God use a semi-Pelegian like Finney, whose theology, it is commonly agreed, was sorely flawed? Why wasn't Asahel Nettleton - a solid Calvinist - used in the same magnitude? Is revival really a matter of theology, or more a matter of the fallow ground being torn up?

Nettleton and Finney, Whitefield and Wesley, William Booth and Spurgeon, D.L. Moody and Hudson Taylor, arminians or calvinists they preached the same everlasting gospel,they exalted Christ, denouced sin, glorified God and his holy and infinite attributes, they called sinners to repentance and to believe the Son of God, they exhorted regenerated sinners to holiness of life.

The gosple is not a theological system, the gosple (good news) is Jesus Christ, he is the Lamb slained from the foundations of the world

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlastingf life

Jesus Christ it's the free gift of God for whosoever will believe. Forknowledge, predestination, election, how unsearchable are his ways, these truths should make us wonder at infinite wisdom of God Who can understand his Mind?
He loved us first, he chose us, he shall have mercy on whom he wills, ah the electing love of God and his free gift of grace,his desire that everyone to come to the true knowledge of salvation.

Hi everyone.

Brother Paul, just taking off with something you shared here....

"Why did God use a semi-Pelegian like Finney, whose theology, it is commonly agreed, was sorely flawed?"

[i]...neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth[/i]

but God that giveth the increase.

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?"

Or, who then are any of them, or us? But nothings?

Nothings?

Chris

AMEN! For me to think calvanistic views are the only way, or reform is simply confusing. Some of these theorys discredit the teaching of the word of GOD throughout the enire HOLY WORD. YES I believe GOD is soverign, but if I allow myself to believe that nothing I do matters is totally against all of his teachings throughout scripture. If GOD could not be moved to change HIS choice then Hezekiah surely would have died according to the prophecy from Isaiah.Isiah 38:1-6. The teachings of Jesus become of none importance if we allow ourselves to believe in such a thing as this. The apostle Paul and the teachings throughout the New Testament become useless and powerless. Why should we resist the devil and he will flee, if nothing we do matters? Why then even repent from our sins if nothing we do matters? Why even share in discussions of revival and chasing after the Glory of GOD to fill us and transform us into HIS image? Why involve ourselves with passion for the one who came to save us, so that we may have life? LORD REVIVE MY SOUL BY YOUR SPIRIT, FOR YOUR SPIRIT LORD, AND YOUR WORD IS TRUE!!! FOR LIFE IS A BATTLE FOR THE SOUL, BY OUR WILL LET US CHOOSE YOU MY LORD, TO WORSHIP YOU THE CREATOR OF ALL AND TO FELLOWSHIP WITH YOU!!! WE NEED MORE JESUS AND ALOT LESS OF US!!!!

Amen, Chris. Who is Wesley, who is Whitefield, who is Finney? Actually, none of these men could do anything if it weren't for anquishing intercessors, laboring in the Spirit. And during heated interecssion, theology doesn't come into question. Those reading this who have entered into the secret place of travail know what happens when the Holy Ghost comes to brood. During these times, you're not thinking about Arminianism or Calvinism or any other kind of "ism" - you're pouring out the agony of your burdened spirit for souls dying without God. These are woeful moments that God keeps on eternal record. It's not about what theological framework we subscribe to - Finney showed us that. It's not about being a Pentecostal, Baptist, Presbyterian or Quaker. It's about being genuinely born-again and then entering into soul-hot travail.

Ah, it's so easy to say, "I am of the Calvinists" or "I am of the Arminian Pentecostals" and know absolutely nothing about the [i]one thing that matters[/i]: soul travail and anquish and brokeness in prayer.

Brother Paul

Our problem is nonexperimental truth that fills our brains, we know much about revivals, have such a great knowledge "about" God but unfortunatly our experience of Him is very shallow. Deep calls unto deep.

Where are the hearts burdened with the burden of the Lord.Every awakening or revival was preceded by a spirit of grace and supplication.

We need Spirit born holy desires.We need power from on high, we cant fight the devil with "carnal weapons", we cant hurt his kingdom with the "letters of scriptures" but with the word or words of God.

Revival has a "prize" to pay, it will be costly, we want the fruits of it but non of it's spiritual pains and burdens, we want its confort but non of it's persecution. The early methodists were all open air preachers they knew very well what it meant to be reviled, beaten, persecuted,in perils of their life,with apostolic zeal they advanced the kingdom of God.

May God wake us up and shake us to realize that it is His honor and glory in cause and may he open the eyes of our hearts and understanding that we can see the Reality, may his light cast out the darkness in us.