Christian Perfection (In Greek)

Indeed, and we all have been made complete in Him (Col 2:10).

It is especially important to grasp this. For as you point out rightly in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said for us to "be" perfect. And in the same context Jesus said "unless your righteousness surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." Such would have been a blistering hot statement to the Jews of His day. For there was nobody who strived harder to keep God's law than the Pharisees. There was nobody more meticulous in their study and application of God's law. Yet Jesus said unless your righteousness surpassed theirs, and unless you were perfect, you would not enter the kingdom of God.

Where the scribes and Pharisees got it wrong is that they were striving for a perfection they could not obtain in themselves. Such a perfection and righteousness could not come the way they were seeking it. Indeed, to continue to search after righteousness in such a manner would cause one to never actually find it. Rather, such a perfection and righteousness could only come on the basis of faith. It can be received and attained by no other way. And the source of that righteousness and perfection is none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

*edit*
It must also be noted that perfection is ours by faith. A babe in Christ is indeed perfect in Christ. We as Christians are called to simply walk in the perfection we have in Christ. Thus, when you are struggling with some sort of sin as a Christian, you need to realize Christ has already made you free, and you need now only to walk in the freedom Christ has brought to you.

But the perfect in verse 12 is “teleioo”, which also means to “finish” or “fulfill”. In the context of the surrounding passages, Paul was saying that he had not yet “finished” his race as to receive His glorified body. It it the same exact word, “teleioo” that Jesus used when He said he had “finished” the purposes God sent Him to fullfill, John 17:4. So when Paul said, “not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect” Paul was saying that he had not yet attained a glorified body nor finished the work God had for him. And so he presses on to the finish line for the prize of a glorified body, verse 14.

great job explaining these verses.

Could you explain further about what you believe it is to be morally perfect?

In Matthew 5:48 Jesus commanded that we be “telios” or “perfect” just as God is “telios” or perfect. The word “telios” means a current state of moral maturity, moral perfection, or moral completeness lacking nothing.

The word for “becoming perfect” is different. “Teleioo” is the greek word used referencing being “made perfect”, as in John 17:23. But “telios” is used in the present tense of being, hense the “be” perfect as the Father “is” perfect. God Himself is not being made perfect, or becoming perfect, or trying to be perfect, but is morally mature, morally perfect, morally complete as “telios” means.

The tenses in the prayer at this point are interesting. Literally he prays "that they may be (present tense)having become perfect (perfect participle in the passive voice) into one. This is the way the ASV translates the verseI in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me. which captures the sense well.

edit: teleios really means "having reached its end, finished, complete." Hence our word teleological which refers to things with a goal or purpose. The associated verb has the sense of moving something towards its target or destination. The sense of progress or arrival would be given by the form of the Greek verb itself, as is whether or not a person is actively 'perfecting' or passively 'being perfected'.

The sense of fulfilling a plan or purpose is often in the word which is why some modern translations use the word 'mature' as of its meanings.

See [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&verse=23&strongs=5048&page=]teleioO - to perfect (the verb)[/url] used 24 times in the NT.
See [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=17&verse=23&strongs=5046&page=1]teleios - the end (the noun)[/url] used 19 times in the NT.

... and check out the way in which the words are used in the NT.

KJV
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

KJV
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils

Speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared
with a hot iron

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of
them which believe and know the truth.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused,
if it be received with thanksgiving

For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou
shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the
words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast
attained.

But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself
rather unto godliness.

For bodily exercise profiteth little but godliness is
profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that
now is, and of that which is to come.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we
trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

These things command and teach.

Let no man despise thy youth but be thou an example of the
believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in
faith, in purity.

Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to
doctrine.

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by
prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Meditate upon these things give thyself wholly to them that
thy profiting may appear to all.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine continue in
them for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them
that hear thee.

These are an honest questions, I am not trying to be difficult but I want to know if anyone on this site has reached this 'moral perfection'? Also, once you attain it is it possible to lose it? Does anyone know anyone who has attained this 'moral perfection'?

moral perfection

I think I can speak with confidence in saying that no one on this site has 'reached this moral perfection'; that would make it an achievement.

But if you ask is it possible to be 'perfect before God', as Abraham was commanded, I would say 'yes'.

This will probably bring a storm of postings on my head but if you want a straight answer to the question 'do you believe you have known Christian perfection?' I would answer "Yes... ...[i]frequently[/i]" ;-)

I think I can speak with confidence in saying that no one on this site has 'reached this moral perfection'; that would make it an achievement.

Amen. It is our aim, heading towards it.

Ron, would you say christian perfection is being clean of known sins, not having habitual sin, being obediant to the light (knowledge) given you?

Reply to Ron

Amen again and thank you.

If we are speaking of perfection as being cleansed of sin, having confessed all things before God with no sins hidden, then I agree that a Christian can be perfect before God.

However, once that lust, pride or whatever comes along we must confess our sins again.

My impression from Jesse was that a Christian can live in a state of perfection before God in which the Christian never ever sins again.

Am I misreading this?

2 Peter 1:10 ...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness...

I think this verse is pivotal when trying to understand the Biblical doctrine of Christian perfection. It says that God has granted us everything we need pertaining to life and godliness. When one understand this, then they will understand they don't need extra "zaps" in their Christian life in order to walk in victory over sin.

Rather, victory over sin is theirs by simply walking in what Christ has provided you by faith. No amount of fasting, praying, reading your Bible, or going to Holy Ghost filled revival meetings will do this. It is about walking in the newness of life provided by the Holy Spirit. It is about depending on the power of His resurrection to sustain one at every moment.

My impression from Jesse was that a Christian can live in a state of perfection before God in which the Christian never ever sins again.

Thank God there is not one promise in Scripture that ever says we must sin again! Will we? Probably. However, as John reminds us: "I have written these things to you that you might not sin..." (1 John 2:1) There is the promise from Scripture: "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weakness, but One who has been tempted in all things just as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:15-16)

Sadly, many of us think that growth in our faith is measured by how we sin less and less. The fact of the matter is we are not supposed to be sinning at all. True growth is not measured in sinning less and less, but true growth is measured by the abundance of fruit one produces in their life. For this is exactly how Jesus grew in regard to His faith (Luke 2:52). We prove to be His disciples not by the sinning less and less, but rather, we are to "bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples." (John 15:8) And this is what Peter also said: "For he who lacks these qualities [the virtue/fruit of the preceding verses] is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you." (2 Peter 1:9-11)

Now, please don't misunderstand me with all this. Practically speaking, both in and out of Scripture, we see the fact that Christians do sin. And with such, as 1 John 2 says, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous. However, what we do not see in the Scriptures is where it is the norm for Christians to live defeated lives bound by the flesh. Rather, victory over sin is the expected norm.

So much so that Jesus said things like "Go and sin no more" (John 8:11) to the woman caught in adultery, or Paul near the end of Corinthians, "Become sober-minded as as you ought, and stop sinning!" (1 Cor 15:34) And why is this the expected norm? Because we are a people of the resurrection! And this was the context of 1 Cor 15:34, the greatest single chapter in all of Scripture devoted to the topic of the resurrection. We are amongst those who have believed that a dead man named Jesus Christ was brought back to life after three days. Therefore, how can we ever live the same ever again?

Amen!

Now, please don't misunderstand me with all this. Practically speaking, both in and out of Scripture, we see the fact that Christians do sin. And with such, as 1 John 2 says, we have an Advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the Righteous. However, what we do not see in the Scriptures is where it is the norm for Christians to live defeated lives bound by the flesh. Rather, victory over sin is the expected norm.

I am glad you said this. Victory over sin is the norm and we should never make room for sin in our lives. I desire to live a life that is free from sin but I also see another desire in my flesh. These two war against one another.

I protest against the doctrine of 'Christian perfection' because I have heard preachers speak about it as they have stopped sinning. They say that they do not sin anymore as if they are above temptation and never have anymore slip-ups. It is in my opinion them pretending to be sinless while being sinful. This is what I protest against.

Now, if we are referring to the doctrine that Wesley expounded in that:

"Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean we no longer violate the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have continued need to pray for forgiveness and holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather says that, “Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ.” (A Plain Account of Christian Perfection)

Wesley did not use perfection to describe sinlessness. Similarly, perfection is not the state of being unable to sin, but rather the state of choosing not to sin. Wesley's perfection represents a change of life, a freedom from willful rebellion against God, impure intentions, and pride. Wesley also did not view perfection as permanent"

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection]Wesley link[/url]

If this is what we talk about then I agree with Ron:

do you believe you have known Christian perfection?' I would answer "Yes... ...frequently" ;-)

Ron, would you say christian perfection is being clean of known sins, not having habitual sin, being obediant to the light (knowledge) given you?

All of the above! :-)

JaySaved on 2007/3/23 18:31:27
My impression from Jesse was that a Christian can live in a state of perfection before God in which the Christian never ever sins again.

Am I misreading this?

Christian Perfection is a snap shot on the route not an arrival at a destination.

KingJimmy on 2007/3/23 20:35:09
2 Peter 1:10 ...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness..

1. "all things [u]have been given[/u] to us..."
2. "exceeding great and precious promises [u]have been given[/u] to us..."
3. so that by these "[u]ye may become[/u] partakers of the divine nature..."
4. "[u]having escaped[/u]..."
5. and KJV "and beside this [u]add...[/u]" Imperative

and then a whole list of 'additions' to all the things that God has already done which [u]we[/u] are required to 'provide'.

and then this glorious promise...“For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(2Pet 1:8 KJVS)
...and surely that is what we want. Not sterile sinlessness alone but lives which bear much fruit... (John 15)

I protest against the doctrine of 'Christian perfection' because I have heard preachers speak about it as they have stopped sinning. They say that they do not sin anymore as if they are above temptation and never have anymore slip-ups. It is in my opinion them pretending to be sinless while being sinful. This is what I protest against.

Wesleyan Sanctificatin is much more than choosing 'not to sin'. His more favoured term was 'perfect love' and that is a whole lot bigger than 'choosing not to sin'.

It should be noted and especially emphasized that the Biblical doctrine of Christian perfection should not be confused with what Wesley taught. God bless John Wesley that he got so much right about Christian perfection. But he also got so much wrong. Instead of seeing Christian perfection as something that occurs at regeneration, Wesley made it a post-conversion happening. A secondary experience.

To do so, in my opinion, robs a believer of some of his spiritual armor, and cheapens the work of regeneration. Thus, you have accounts such as we read about in the [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15779&forum=35]Brengle's Account[/url] thread, which is a great example of classical Wesleyan-sanctification doctrine. This view states that even though you were born again, the "old man" has yet to die, and thus you need to come to a crisis experience in which you once-and-for-all deal with the old man, and put him to death. But where this view falls apart theologically is that Romans 6:6 makes it clear that the death of the old man is part of the conversion experience. The thing we are called to do as believers is not to kill off the old man, but rather, to make sure we don't put him back on the throne. Thus, we should no longer "lie to one another, since you have laid aside the old self with its evil practices" (Col 3:9)

The thing we have to drill in our heads is that verse from 2 Peter 1 which says that we have already been given all that pertains to life and godliness. In other words, no further work of grace is necessary to purge us from sin. For that was done with the blood of Jesus. As one brother I know has asked, "How can you get cleaner after having been washed with the blood of Jesus?" The fact of the matter is that you can't. All that remains after conversion is that you grow in the grace by which you stand, to develop character, and to abound in the fruit of the Spirit.

This view states that even though you were born again, the "old man" has yet to die, and thus you need to come to a crisis experience in which you once-and-for-all deal with the old man, and put him to death.

Dear brother, I'm not so sure it means exactly this, cut and dry. Many venerable men and women of God throughout history have spoken of an identical occurence; it runs throughout traditional hymnody; Leonard Ravenhill spoke of the cleansing, Zac Poonen speaks of the cleansing, Keith Daniel does, Moody did, Fox, Andrew Murray. I don't believe it has anything to do with "the once-and-for-all killing of the old man" - for the old man has been slain with Christ - but I [i]do[/i] believe it is wrought when a believer comes to a place of absolute surrender and abandonment to God. When he finally "lays all his trophies down" and exchanges them for a cross. I believe at this point God is able to do work of grace where hitherto he was unable. It's different from conversion. Listen to Zac Poonen's "Christian Reality" message where he explains how he lived the first 15 years of his Christian walk in "unreality" though he spoke in tongues and wasn't living in secret sin. But it wasn't until he layed it all down where God finally met him and filled him with the Holy Spirit and cleansed his heart and gave him "reality". After 15 years of Christianity!

We can't repudiate the testimonies of the men and women who have been witnesses of this experience. The question, rather, should be how does one enter into this place of total surrender whereby this work of grace can abound. There's simply no mistaking the person in whom this blessed work has been done. Keith Daniel's face shines like an angel - the man is so radically different from other Christians. I'm going out on a treacherous limb here, but I'll say it anyhow: when you see a man like brother Keith, you can't help but think: "This brother has the real thing. This is what Jesus Christ can actually [i]do[/i] to a man!" It's stultifying. And Keith preaches absolute abandonment and being filled with the Holy Spirit. But I certainly agree with you - I don't believe man enters into a state of perfection where the prospect of sinning becomes impossible because the "old man" is now irretrievably slain.

This is a level my heart yearns for, a place where man can not arrive through sheer willpower, nor through pumping up his flesh by protracted periods of prayer and by profuse Bible reading which is independant of the leading of God's Spirit into these deeper waters.

My question to Jesus has simply been "How do I surrender, Lord?" What has to happen in my life? I want it, I accept it, I can taste it...but I just can't relinquish the inner depths of my being without some mysterious key. It's maddening. I absolutely loathe my sin, that which dwells within, which, at any moment is capable of breaking out into an open flame should I stop dealing death blows to my members. But, alas...the surrender. How is it wrought? Oh, who can save me from this cursed body of death!

As Ravenhill said, the Son of God didn't redeem us so we could fumble around like spiritual cripples. We should be turning the world upside down and stirring up the Jews to envy what we have.

Oh, brethren, how I feel we settle for less. What does it take to "lay it all down"? We sing it almost every sunday in my church: "I surrender all" and I sing right along with everyone else. Oh, I can't imagine how different my life would be were it true...

Brother Paul

When are we going to understand that Christian perfection comes only when we are in Christ. Nothing we do will ever attain it by anything we do. It is said, "when we are weak then we are strong." 2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. wallowing around in our own thoughts and works of righteousness gets us no where. When we, like many have said on this forum, that when we finally give us our recognition and desperate works to achieve our self interest in becoming like Christ instead of being like Christ by what God has already done in us that are already In Christ and Christ in us, then we will begin to do the works of Christ that He said, are greater that what He has already done.

Our perfecting is Christ and Christ is in us and us in Christ. What more could we do or want than to become son's of God our Father by Christ Jesus Birthed in us. We truly are perfect in Christ, we just don't want to turn loose of control of our salvation and sonship, that is Lambship.

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Let us become the lambs of God lead to the slaughter and die to self and be resurrected in Lambship and sonship.

Revelation 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Since we are already a kingdom of priests by the Lamb that birthed in us, let us act like it and trust Him that has redeemed us to God our Father, by His own Blood, making us also lambs of God by our association with His suffering.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

By the Lamb of God my fellow lambs, be ye Perfect.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

In Christ, perfect by the Lamb: Phillip