Entertainment

A brief testimony:Being raised in a Christian home, with pretty high standards, you would think I would have somehow caught on to something that was right under my nose. But, as many of us discover when we wholeheartedly give our lives to Jesus, this is sometimes not the case.My family has always held to a “we don’t listen to any secular music” doctrine. It really wasn’t too difficult to follow – it had always been a “given” for my brother and I, that if the music wasn’t inspired by God… it was inspired by the devil. Because of this so-called “high standard,” I would often get into debates with kids in my youth group and even my youth leaders about it. I just couldn’t understand why so few people saw how wrong it was. But you see, I had a problem… Not only was I involved in musical theater, I also watched some secular television shows and movies. One day, after giving much biblical basis on why it was wrong to “partake of the cup of demons” and then “partake of the Lord’s cup,” I was challenged with this question: “What’s the difference between what YOU are doing in musical theater, than what I am doing by listening to secular music?” I had no answer. On another occasion, I was presented with a different question: “What’s the difference between listening to mainstream music vs. watching movies?” Again, I had no answer.It was not too long after these conversations that the Lord began to deal with my heart about my “movie watching.” I was never a movie addict. I have actually seen very few movies – and I always considered my movie choices to be “decent.” (How I justified seeing the Titanic (nudity, glorifying fornication…), Armageddon (glorifying fornication), 10 Things I Hate About You (sexual innuendo…) still boggles my mind.) But, nevertheless, I began an “I will not watch movies for 6 months” campaign. I really didn’t know why the Lord was having me do it – I wasn’t exactly “convicted” about them – yet. After the 6 months were up, I realized how I hadn’t even missed them. When the youth would gather for a “movie night” I would just wander into another room and talk to people. But, the Lord still wasn’t finished with me…My sophomore year of High School I began to struggle with anorexia – that’s an understatement, I suppose. Loosing weight became my main objective in life. I became so thin that the doctors wanted to hospitalize me. We often don’t realize how bound we are to this world and how much we love it, until we are faced with obstacles. It took this battle for God to show me how rotten I was – and how bound I was. Desperate for Life, I began reading the Scriptures like never before – and God began to reveal Himself to me like never before. (I had begun traveling for “music ministry” about a year or so before this.) God was showing me His purpose for coming to earth – a purpose I should have learned of years before my struggle. I began to understand the Gospel, and began to preach the Gospel – in TRUTH and in its entirety (freedom from the power of sin, etc.). As God began to free me from my anorexia, I began to see more and more clearly how far away the professing church (and myself) was from knowing the purposes of Christ. After reading Scriptures such as “I will set no worthless thing before my eyes; I hate the work of those who fall away; It shall not fasten its grip on me. A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil.” Psalm 101:3-4 I began to see how sinful most secular movies and television programs were. Even “Little House on the Prairie” became loathsome to me, because I saw how it took the place of Christ in people’s lives. It was a humanistic tool to draw people to other loves and other lives – and far away from the knowledge of God. (“Anti-Christ” does not only mean “opposed” to Christ, but a “replacement” for Christ.)So I did away with my television viewing and my movie watching. (I also discontinued my involvement in musical theater productions.) After months (now years) of going without, I realize how incredibly “noisy” my life was – it was nearly impossible to hear God like I needed to. Why am I saying all this? Because I am so grieved in my heart at the idolatry in our lives. I’m not talking about becoming legalistic – I have no problem with someone watching the news when the Twin Towers fell – or checking up on the internet or things like that. I DO have a problem when professing Christians can pay to sit in a movie theater (or pay for cable or HBO) and be ENTERTAINED with the very sin that nailed Jesus to the cross! The very sin that Jesus, our Messiah, shed His Precious blood to SAVE us from! Laughing not just at, but WITH actors and actresses who are going to a place called HELL because they are dead in sin, instead of weeping over their lost souls and begging Jesus to make Himself known to them. No wonder we are divided, and full of (spiritual) sickness and disease in the church! No wonder many have no discernment! How dare we mock God by thinking we aren’t affected by the evil of this age. God, give us the Grace to hear this.When I stand before God, I will give an account for everything I have set before my eyes – what a scary thought! He is going to judge His Church – in love, yes – but, as Paul says, “if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.” 1 Corinthians 11:31 “O sons of men, how long will my honor become a reproach? How long will you love what is worthless and aim at deception? Selah. Psalms 4:2 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.” 1 Corinthians 11:26 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals." Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:33-34Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Galatians 6:7-8I tire of seeing “praise the Lord for Blockbusters!” on professing Christian’s away messages. I tire of reading “going to go watch American Idol” and then a few hours later “Lord, please help me, I’m struggling with my flesh” on the same away message. I tire of reading “gone to church to praise the Lord” one minute and then a few hours later “Thank the Lord for VCR’s! Time to watch FRIENDS!” I tire of seeing people dance and sing and jump and praise the Lord of heaven and all the earth – only to know that they will go out afterward to a restaurant and sing along with the pop music played over the speakers – or worse yet, (as we did at my old church) go see a movie.“And although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” Romans 1:32 When will we learn? When will we stop being “stiff-necked”? What is it going to take? We may have the best teaching, and read our bibles and pray – but if we are not being obedient to that word, there is no life in us. You might say to me, “I don’t feel convicted in these areas” or, “I don’t hold to the same conviction.” Whether you FEEL convicted or not, sin is sin. Worldliness is worldliness. Many homosexuals are perfectly content and at peace with their lifestyle, but it is STILL sin. And if you would like to bring up the passage “Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil” and “The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God” why don’t you finish the passage?“Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.” Romans 14:22Thanks for listening.“Entertainment is the Devil’s substitute for joy” Leonard RavenhillTo hear good messages on the subject: Passing Under the Rod (David Wilkerson)Preparing to Sing in a Difficult Hour (Carter Conlon)Obtaining the Fullness of the Blessings of Christ (David Wilkerson)But please, if you are going to listen to these messages, do not walk away unchanged in heart. If you aren’t willing to walk away from these ungodly things, don’t waste your time in listening.I truly say this all in love,--Maria

I will say that I do agree with you on this.I also have a lot more to say, but it has been a long day.....Interestingly, my best friend just sent me an email regarding an 'old' 'rocker', (we both were in bands and were big rock n' rollers, heavy metal, classic rock, southern rock, etc.)Anyway, Rick Derringer, for those who may know who he is, is a Christian now! I don't know how long, but after doing some digging around on his site, it appears to be true! So why do I bring this up?Because it took me right out of the stupid money problems that we are having, the disputes over, just ridiculous stuff....and made me rejoice! Praise God, another one saved! It's what it is all about!Again, much more to say and obviously there is the whole music aspect to this entertainment topic, both secular and Christian, which I would imagine will bring out a few reply's......But, for an old rocker like me this is just the best news!_/crsschk\\_

Dear Maria, I am glad to see that the Lord is working in your heart. I feel what you have said is a blessing but I want to say that any change of the heart MUST come from the Lord and his dealings in our hearts. I have seen way to many times when man will grow restless, and instead of seeking out Gods heart we seek out ways to punch out our own holiness, and always using the explanative warning of not being legalistic. If our true hearts desire is to seek His Face, there will be less and less desire for the things of this world and a sincere heartfelt desire to be in His presence..I have come from a past experience of a church that started out sincerely loving the Lord and trully hating sin, and then developing into a church that had no love for anyone, except themselves, becoming totally useless for the Lord. Remember we are to be in the world and not of it....Always easier said then done--but I think the answer is drawing so close to His presence that He gives us the power to do this, or rather He is the power that does it. Its about Him and not us. Its about Him doing all and us doing less(or nothing). Please don't missunderstandme, all sin is an abomination to God, but sin in itself evolves around pride and independence and doing what we want and not what He wants. Our relationship with the Lord is that of love and the only way I can trully be free of sin is to love Him more, or allow Him to love me more.... In Him sdb

Quote: "If our true hearts desire is to seek His Face, there will be less and less desire for the things of this world and a sincere heartfelt desire to be in His presence.."This is so true! What grieves my heart is when we DO feel like we are growing closer, and yet still refuse to submit ourselves to Christ. The Christian can ONLY obey God as God gives Him the power, this is true. But, the Christian must choose to accept that power. As Jesus said to the Pharisee's "The Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst." So often we beg for revival, when it is "in our midst" if only we would receive it.Quote:"but sin in itself evolves around pride and independence and doing what we want and not what He wants."Yes. Sin is choosing to rule oneself rather than to be ruled by God.Quote:"Our relationship with the Lord is that of love and the only way I can trully be free of sin is to love Him more, or allow Him to love me more...."I agree with this -- but what is love? It is not a feeling or an emotion, but an action. The bible says: "And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments." 2 John 1:6And most importantly:"FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3While we cannot possibly obey this apart from the power of Jesus abiding in us, we also cannot claim to have the power of Jesus abiding in us as we continually feed our flesh with the lusts of this world.In His love,--Maria

Quote:"I agree with this -- but what is love? It is not a feeling or an emotion, but an action. The bible says: 'And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments.' 2 John 1:6"And most importantly:"FOR THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS; and His commandments are not burdensome.' 1 John 5:3"I believe that you are showing one main aspect of love. But love is much too grand of a concept to be boiled down into two verses, don't you think? i mean, we also have 1 Cor. 13 which hits some other aspects, and there's probably many, many more. Isn't love more mysterious? I sympathize with most of your convictions on mixing cups with the world and with the kingdom. But I do think this is a legalistic spirit to get into specifics here (i.e. secular music, movies, etc. are evil). This is because the Bible doesn't clearly explain these things. So then, we have a right to our opinion, of course we must each be convinced in our own minds. But is it right to push this very far? Arent' the lines of right and wrong too blury to make definate claims about them? I mean, most will agree that a movie with lots of sex, violence, and dirty languiage is wrong for a Christian to watch and support. BUt what if the movie has one cuss word? Who decides where to draw the line? What if it has one sexual inuendo? One gruesome fight scene? etc. I think it's more of a subjective thing that God will deal with in each person's life individually. Trying to make and enforce corporate rules seems to be the spirit of legalism. SHouldn't we just love God and each other and let God sort all that out with others? Because I've never known someone to change their behavior in a healthy way (a heart decision of their own will, not because someone told them to) due to the resrictions and laws men try to enforce on them. This seems to cause disillusionment and rebellion. I can imagine some outwardly changing to avoid conflict, etc., but we both know that GOd is looking at the heart, right?The one way I can imagine this type of thing justified is if you are a pastor. If God has entrusted you with a flock, then I think you have greater authority to express and enforce your opinions on holy living. THis is because they are your responsability and you will answer to CHrist some day and have to give an account for them. Us laypeople won't have to give and account for the entire corporate church, only for the part of it that GOd has entrusted to us. Right? Holiness is huge, but a cranky type of holiness doesn't seem to do much for the kingdom. I think history makes this pretty clear. This is a topic I don't have very set views on, I am just throwing some of them out there.

About a year after I became a Christian, I was involved in a discipleship program in a local church. A few of the things we vowed to stay away from while going through the class included any and all secular music, rated R movies, and any questionable television programs.Currently there is some secular music I listen to, such as some of our local Cajun music and world music as well as Celtic music like the stuff from Lord of the Rings and Braveheart.It's interesting to me that you guys are discussing this subject right now, because I've been feeling lately like I've been going kinda crazy with movies.I watch alot of movies, probably 4-6 every week, and alot of those movies are rated R and have alot of violence and language in them, particularly the action movies.So I think I may make a new vow to God to stay away from all movies that are rated R again, even the "kind of okay" ones.I think it was Watcman Nee who said that the opposite of holiness is commonness, not sin.So I'm thinking, What's the point in just simply not being sinful if I still entertain alot of stuff the world entertains?What I watch and listen to is very important to my spiritual development, even if I've been saved for many years, because I have to understand and remind myself that I'm still growing.What goes into my mind through my eyes and ears will eventually come out in my life. And if I'm not careful, it could result in me saying or doing the wrong thing at the wrong time.If there is a question about something I'm thinking about looking at on television or the internet, the answer is that I probably shouldn’t.When I became a Christian, God gave me the gift of the Holy Spirit to purify my conscience and help me make right decisions.It's easy to think that just because I've been saved for awhile I don't have to watch out for those kinds of things anymore. But I should instead take heed when I think I stand, lest I fall.

Watchman Nee is correct: "Holy" means "other" or "separated," and it's opposite is "common" or "vulgar" (in the old sense of the word).Todd, you are sorely mistaken if you think that laypeople will not have to give an account for the corporate body or even less than pastors will have to give. All will give an account for the entire body, and all will be responsible for following the voice of God entirely.That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called "Nicolaitanism," and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it.

"Passing Under the Rod" David Wilkerson"The Redeemer is Returning to Zion" David Wilkerson"Preparing to Sing in a Difficult Time" Carter ConlonAnd a new one:"God Is Doing a New Thing in His Church" David Wilkersonwww.timessquarechurch.orgClick: Sermons--MariaP.S. Thanks Greg - you captured the HEART of what was originally posted.

Quote:"Todd, you are sorely mistaken if you think that laypeople will not have to give an account for the corporate body or even less than pastors will have to give. All will give an account for the entire body, and all will be responsible for following the voice of God entirely.That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called 'Nicolaitanism,' and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it."Wow, if this is true then I was obviously way off. Glad I made that semi-disclaimer at the end of my post. Because the things I wrote I am not totally convinced of. I would really appreciate Bible verses to back up every sentence you made (3). Especially the statement "all will give an account for the entire body." That would be very helpful in helping me determine the truth of this matter.Here's the specific statements I would appreciate Scriptural backup for:1. Laypeople will have to give an account for the corporate body...2. ...just as much as pastors will.3. "All will give an account for the entire body"4. "That division between clergy and laity that you speak of is called 'Nicolaitanism,'...5 ..."and Jesus Christ has authoritatively said that he hates it."Notice I didn't include the statement, "and all will be responsible for following the voice of God entirely" because I agree with you here. I guess James 3:1 was one verse that is rolling around in my head."Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur stricter judgement."This seems to show that there are various levels of judgement. That we are will not all be judged by the same measure. (Matt. 7:2 also backs this up [various standards or levels of judgement] "For in the same way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you").Perhaps one of my mistakes was using the term "laypeople." What I meant was people not in a position of much influence (doesn't mean they are not important in God's plan, I am only speaking relatively in the context of the Church here), not an official leader or shepard. People without a platform, so to speak. People not speaking in authority. Those who are more a part of the flock than shepherds. You do believe there are to be leaders (elders) in the church, right? But you probably don't like the term "laypeople." Perhaps it was careless for me to use this word due to it's conotations.There seem to be two senses of God's flock(s). The Church of Jesus Christ as a whole is clearly just that, Jesus' flock (and so in that sense one flock and Jesus the one shepherd). John 10:16"And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall become one flock with one shepherd."Acts 20:28 (Paul to the elders of the church of Ephesus [check 20:1] for context)"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy SPirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."Both of those verses seem to support the concept of one flock.1 Peter 5:1-5"Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God AMONG YOU, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Cheif Shepherd appears, you will recieve the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE to the humble."This passage seems to make it clear that there are numerous flocks within the one main flock, of which God is the Cheif Shepherd.

I am amazed when we begin to rasp under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and begin to justify our behavior and label others as judgmental or legalistic.When I was younger, I got rid of my TV for about 8 years. Then I got "spiritual" and had the liberty to bring it back into my house. Initially, it was for news, weather, and sports. Eventually, we had three TVs for good "clean" entertainment. We didn't watch what everyone agrees as "questionable" programs, but we watched, for the most part, "wholesome" shows. I was pretty much a happy Christian. Attending Church, leading Bible studies, heading up grandiose Christian festivals - impacting thousands of people. I had lots of influence on the Christian community at large (all denominations, etc).After another 8 years or so, the Holy Spirit convicted me again that if I continued to "entertain" myself with the things of this world, He would remove His anointing (another theological debate but I know what I heard). Well, after some strong consideration, I figured that it was better to err on the side of righteousness instead of justifying my worldly activity. So, as I humbled myself and allowed the Lord to have this area walked away from television (I wasn't really into movie going), my discernment began to sharpen. I began to see with eyes that were clear and no longer walk with feeble knees - chronically stumbling and struggling with lust and worldliness.Don't get me wrong, the person who said that music, TV, etc are amoral is partially right. The box that has the picture tube has no evil value to it at all, but the contents that it vomits out has no righteousness associated with it at all. It is there so that its producers can earn a great deal of money to bring people happiness, excitement, adventure, and education.The spirit of antichrist is more than just opposing the things of God, but it has to do with replacing the things of God. Don't you see that what this world wants is your attention and your affection - even if it's a little. Because if it can entice you with a little, then the leaven is placed and will begin to spread.If you believe that this is legalistic, then "sin is at your door" wanting to pull you into its midst. No doubt that there are those out there that have become proud in their holiness because they don't do certain things and only do things that are spiritual. We've all encountered them. However, the true holiness of God produces a knowledge that there is "no good thing that dwells within me" and considers that anything that desires to steal my heart from God, in any way, something to be avoided.All of the prophets were considered legalistic and judgmental. Jesus, Himself, had this rap. What do you think they thought of Him when He proclaimed His woes on certain cities? What do you think they thought of Him when He drove out the money changers? What do you think they thought of Him when He railed on the scribes and Pharisees?The saddest thing of all is that we feel that we have to defend our right to be worldly. On the other hand, someone has to defend their desire to "come out from among them and be separate" and be conscrated unto God.You are right, conviction can only come from the Holy Spirit. You are wrong that it can't come from a person or that it has to come from someone "in authority." I am an ordained minister, but Jesus said that I must come as a child. Coming as a child enables me to receive from the Lord through any part of His body. Paul tells me in EPHESIANS (not Galatians) to be an imitator of God. Paul tells me that in guile to be as a child. I can only do this when I am not spoiled by the things of this world.I'm not going to add a bunch of scriptures because many have already been made part of this post. For sure common-ness is the opposite of holiness. For sure, the Bible doesn't SPECIFICALLY identify television and entertainment (neither are in the concordance), but the Bible speaks of the spirit that they are of. For sure, there is no precedence for the Christian music industry. As one that participated in it for many years, it is a business like the rest of the music industry. Are there Christians in it? Yes. Is God using it? The current stuff is debatable. Is there good music out there that is glorifying God? Yes, and much of it isn't part of a label.This is a long post and I realize that many times we pick out the most recent things mentioned, so I'm going to summarize because this post has nothing to do with Christian music or even television/entertainment. It DOES have to do with the spirit of antichrist. Do not be deceived. Paul says that we know the devices or tactics of Satan. If he can divert your attention away from the simplicity and purity of following Christ and receiving all of your happiness, adventure, suspense, and education from His hand, then he can begin to lure you into his trap.What are things that replace our simple devotion to Christ? As one person said, religion. Some years ago I was an associate pastor of an inner-city church in a large metro city in the south. I was the principal of the Christian school and as far as everyone was concerned (including myself) I was serving God - I was doing HIS work. Work that HE called me to do. I have never been a religious person - one who looked down on someone because of their behavior. I have a strong conviction that God wants us to people that brings others to reconciliation with God. So, for all intents and purposes, all was well with God and me - until one day I realized that something was missing in my life. I was missing that intimate sense of His presence that I had always enjoyed. I was missing hearing His voice. So as I knelt down to pray, I heard these words clearly - words that I will never forget and an event that is a landmark in my Christian walk, "You'll have no other gods before me." The Lord revealed to me that I had allowed my ministry (the one He had called me to and a location He had placed me) to REPLACE my simple, pure devotion to Him. You see, God doesn't need your religion or your religious activities. He wants your YOU! So, ANYTHING that draws us away from Him by stealing our time, our affection, our energy and replaces Him - we are guilty of idolatry. This will ultimately result into us falling prey to worldliness - all the while believing that His presence and His pleasure is with us.Do NOT BE DECEIVED.For a picture of what sin and worldliness can do to the body, take a look around. How effective is the Church these days in preserving the culture and restoring people back to God?WE WILL ALL STAND ACCOUNTABLE BEFORE GOD AS MEMBERS OF HIS BODY.I apologize for the length of this. Thank you for reading it, in its entirety (I read all of yours, in their entirety).When I was young and full of zeal, I sought to please the Lord with all my heart, sparing nothing that would intrude into that space. When I got older and wiser, I tempered that zeal and began to realize that I was capable of discerning which worldly activities I could participate in and which I couldn't. I also wanted to be able to "fellowship" with other believers - because the other way made them uncomfortable. When the Lord showed me that I had become wise in my own eyes, He also showed me that I could return to Him as a young child again - full of zeal, sparing nothing that would intrude into His space.I leave you with one final scripture verse. Please read it completely, in the context of this post. May the Lord give you wisdom. “But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and [so] lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy(unfeigned, undisguised, sincere). And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.” (James 3:14-18 NAS95)Disclaimer: I didn't proof read this so if there are spelling errors or bad grammar - my apologies.Consider reading the following article on Sin In The Camp" to understand our role in His body.Peace,Mark

Thanks for expounding on the meaning of holiness as Brother Nee defined it. I think it should be a priority for us to be holy and separated from the world, and separated unto God.That way the world can see that there really is a difference in us and it might influence them to want to become Christians as well.I believe we will have to give an account to God for the opportunities we have or have not given to young believers to help them grow in their faith.Keith Green said that every generation of believers is responsible for their generation of souls. And Jesus commands us to go and make disciples of all nations.Peter exhorted the elders of the church to shepherd the flock of God among them, exercising oversight and proving to be examples to the flock.I agree that there are numerous flocks within the one main flock of every church, of which God is the Cheif Shepherd. The leadership training program in my church is called Exodus 18, based on the advice of Jethro to Moses about finding able men to be undersheperds for the people of Israel.Every church member is prayed for daily and receives a phone call every week to see how they're doing. I've said this before: I believe that if we who have been saved 10 years or more can't look at a young believer and say "Follow me as I follow Christ" then we need to check ourselves out and see if there is something wrong with us.

]I've said this before: I believe that if we who have been saved 10 years or more can't look at a young believer and say "Follow me as I follow Christ" then we need to check ourselves out and see if there is something wrong with us.Well said.By the way, my reference to my ordination was to respond Todd's statement about pastor's being held accountable. While there is a greater accountability to anyone in leadership, if those in leadership reach a point where they cannot receive correction or ministry from the rest of the body, then they are out of order and out of control (cancer). The reference was merely to state that not only do I believe that, but I live it as well.Man's ordination means nothing. If that was the case, then the apostle Paul was not qualified for the ministry as he was not ordained or commissioned by anyone from the church at Jerusalem.Peace,Mark

The one way I can imagine this type of thing justified is if you are a pastor. If God has entrusted you with a flock, then I think you have greater authority to express and enforce your opinions on holy living. THis is because they are your responsability and you will answer to CHrist some day and have to give an account for them. Us laypeople won't have to give and account for the entire corporate church, only for the part of it that GOd has entrusted to us. Right? Holiness is huge, but a cranky type of holiness doesn't seem to do much for the kingdom. I think history makes this pretty clear. This is a topic I don't have very set views on, I am just throwing some of them out there. [/quote

Quote Taka: "I think it should be a priority for us to be holy and separated from the world, and separated unto God. That way the world can see that there really is a difference in us and it might influence them to want to become Christians as well."Absolutely! Thank you for responding in a Spirit of love! Thank you also, heartsoffire. It's awesome when the Lord begins to quicken our hearts to hear and understand what He is speaking to us! =)I quote: (someone from another post a while back)"To a hypocrite, all whose religion lies in his tongue, nothing is more dreadful than that God searches the heart and sees through all his disguises. To a sincere Christian, who makes heart-work of his duty, nothing is more comfortable than that God searches the heart, for then he will hear and answer those desires which we want words to express." UnknownIn Him,Maria

"To a hypocrite, all whose religion lies in his tongue, nothing is more dreadful than that God searches the heart and sees through all his disguises. To a sincere Christian, who makes heart-work of his duty, nothing is more comfortable than that God searches the heart, for then he will hear and answer those desires which we want words to express." UnknownI have always found that when I feel defensiveness rise up and then fear it is because my flesh is becoming uncomfortable. I was attending the meeting where David Wilkerson preached on "Passing Under the Rod." I felt my defenses going up. I began to get angry. Then this still gentle voice spoke to me, "If this wasn't a problem, then why are you getting angry?" At which point I found myself with a mighty resolve to deal with the idols of my heart.This same thing has happened to me several times over the years and it usually comes from a place or person that I least expect it to. You see, God is interested in empowering me to overcome the world. THEN, as an overcomer,I have demonstrated to a dying world a living Saviour.This isn't performance based and it has nothing to do with anything good in me. It has everything to do with God's grace in me to lead me to a true righteousness. Not one by which I do outwardly, but a changed heart.“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,” (Titus 2:11-12 NAS95)“"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. "Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. "I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. "I am not doing [this] for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!"” (Ezekiel 36:25-32 NAS95)

I DO have a problem when professing Christians can pay to sit in a movie theater (or pay for cable or HBO) and be ENTERTAINED with the very sin that nailed Jesus to the cross! The very sin that Jesus, our Messiah, shed His Precious blood to SAVE us from! Laughing not just at, but WITH actors and actresses who are going to a place called HELL because they are dead in sin, instead of weeping over their lost souls and begging Jesus to make Himself known to them.Amen Amen and Amen. AS it says in James, be miserable, mourn, and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy into gloom. We have commited a gross sin today by calling 'bad' good. As 1 Cor teaches, love does not rejoice in unrighteousness...yet so many rejoice by being captivated and amused by that which our Lord died for.

QUOTE: "As 1 Cor teaches, love does not rejoice in unrighteousness...yet so many rejoice by being captivated and amused by that which our Lord died for."Thank you! You have just defined another part of what true love is: walking in the ways of His commandments!!QUOTE:"We have commited a gross sin today by calling 'bad' good.""Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 "Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness..." 2 Chronicles 19:7"The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether." Psalms 19:9"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate." Proverbs 8:13"By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for, And by the fear of the LORD one keeps away from evil." Proverbs 16:6Grace and Peace in our Lord Jesus Christ!--Maria

"The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverted mouth, I hate." Proverbs 8:13I recently preached on that verse :) wrtbooks was kind enough to put up my sermon on this site. It may be good for people on this discussion to consider watching that sermon, as I think it is applicable to this discussion.Check it out The Fear of the Lord and Idols About 52 minutes long.Also, for those of you who would rather not download a 24 mb file, you can watch a streaming version of that tape at http://www.christiansteps.com/sermons/fcc_071303.ramThis is my first sermon btw :)