salvation by our fruits?

Like so many Christians you have gotten within one word of accuracy in describing the role of works. That one erroneous word was "through."No one will be saved who doesn't have faith in Christ. We are saved through faith. It is the type of faith, however, which will surely produce fruit that it real. A "faith" that results in no works is useless for salvation. The thief on the cross was saved by faith. He had little time for works, but we can be assured that had he been spared at the last minute he would've gone on to do good works. It is helpful to remember the Reformers saying "by grace through faith unto good works."I remember learning in philosophy class at the University about conditions which are simultaneously necessary but insufficient. Faith is necessary and sufficient for salvation assuming it causes works which are necessary but insufficient on their own. Reversing the causality doesn't fly either. All those depending on cheap grace --- Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand! The tares will be pulled and burned in the end.

17Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.This is also a good clue that Jesus wasn't contradicting the rest of the NT. The fruit is always in keeping with the tree. The elect cannot help but be changed and motivated by the Spirit to bear fruit. The non-elect cannot perform pleasing works unto God regardless of what they do. Even their works which appear good to us merit no favor from God. Jake is trying to get this passage to say that some who had genuine faith (good trees) could bear bad fruit by lack of works. We see that this isn't true and that any with bad fruit are bad trees and therefore not possessing of genuine faith in Christ. What leads people to these conclusions is the high proportion of tares we allow in our churches by watering down the truth and refusing to discipline. This is the same thing that leads people to reject perseverance of the saints. We assume that all who say they are saved are. This is ridiculous and couldn't hold up under five minutes of scriptural scrutiny.

"If our faith does not move us to work for charity, grace, peace and justice in the here and now, we condemn ourselves to eternal death."James says "show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works". It's completely true that, if you have that faith, and obviously the time, then the works will follow. After all, we are judged by our works. And it is true that we are justified (defended) by our works. NOT the works of the law, however. I must once again emphisis that being justified is not being saved. Think about it this way, justified is "defended", as if you are the defendant in a court case, you are being accused by satan, that accuser of the brethren, and your works justify you.... defend you. Prove you, so long as you have your faith. :)

Zapthycat writes I must once again emphisis that being justified is not being saved. Think about it this way, justified is "defended", as if you are the defendant in a court case, you are being accused by satan, that accuser of the brethren, and your works justify you.... defend you. Prove you, so long as you have your faith. There is a pigeon-English definition of 'justification' which runs "God, Him say, me OK". It is surprising accurate as a definition. Justification comes from the legal background used particularly by Paul in Romans. The consequence of a trial was that the magistrate/judge would publically declare the defendent to be 'guilty' or 'justified'; there were no other options. (justified does not mean 'defended'. It is a judicial pronouncement)If the defendent is pronounced 'guilty' the sentence is pronounced and carried out. The scriptural word for 'the sentence pronounced' is 'comdemnation'. From that time the 'guilty' one is a 'condemned man'; on his way to his punishment. For those in Christ there is literally 'no condemnation'; no pronouncing of sentence, no carrying out of the sentence.Our acceptance with God is not based in any way upon our contribution but upon Christ's. It is not based on what I do but upon what He has done. The death of the Son of God will forever remain the only basis of our acceptance with God. This is 'justification'; sanctification is another part of the story of salvation.

I am more in line with what Zapthycat said. We are not justified by Christ's death. Christ's death provides the atonement, the propitiation for our sin. It is the ressurection that justifies us. Romans 4:25, "who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." We in a sense are not justified by the death but by the Life. Those who have faith, (saying yes to Jesus), will know the Life. Romans 8:29-30, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called; these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Those who believe Jesus, will be justified by their faith in Jesus. The evidence of their faith in Jesus, will glorify God.In ChristJeff

We are not justified by Christ's death. Christ's death provides the atonement, the propitiation for our sin. It is the ressurection that justifies us.To my thinking both the death and resurrection are part of justification. I believe the resurrection completes and perfects our justification. The death of our precious Lord payed our debt, and by his resurrection we are aquitted.Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.(Romans 8:34 NIV)In Christ,Ron

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?'23Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'Interesting this came up again today as I had been musing on this just this morning.Though I was in Hebrews 12, somehow I made this connection with the above verses. Bear with me.Heb 12:3 -For consider him,.... In the greatness of his person, as God, the Son of God, the heir of all things; and in his offices of prophet, priest, and King, as the Saviour of lost sinners, the Leader and Commander of the people, as the apostle and high priest of our profession: consider him in his human nature, his conversation on earth, and what he did and suffered for men; how that in his nature he was pure and holy, in his conversation harmless and innocent, in his deportment meek and lowly; who went about doing good to the souls of men, and at last suffered and died, and is now glorified: consider the analogy between him and us, and how great is the disproportion; and therefore if he was ill treated, no wonder we should consider him under all his reproaches and sufferings: that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself; against his person, they denying his deity, and speaking against his sonship, and against his offices; mocking him as a King, deriding him as a prophet, and treating him with the utmost contempt as a priest and Saviour; and against his actions, his works of mercy to the bodies of men, when done on the sabbath day; his conversing with sinners for the good of their souls, as if he was an encourager of them in sin, and a partner with them; his miracles, as if they were done by the help of the devil; and against the whole series of his life, as if it was criminal. Now we should analogize this contradiction, and see what proportion there is between this, and what is endured by us: we should consider the aggravations of it, that it was "against himself"; sometimes it was against his disciples, and him through them, as it is now against his members, and him in them; but here it was immediately and directly against himself: and this he endured "from sinners"; some more secret, as the Scribes, Sadducees, and Pharisees; some more open, as the common people; some of them the vilest of sinners, the most abandoned of creatures, as the Roman soldiers, and Herod's men of war: and this should be considered, that we cannot be contradicted by viler or meaner persons; and it is worthy of notice, with what courage and bravery of mind, with what patience and invincible constancy he endured it: this should be recollected for imitation and encouragement, John GillThese are my notes;"Lord, Lord..." Why I find this topic coming up here, unsure....Thought: That it equals spiritual pride, "Did we not do..." that we would even have the audicity to think we could say "look what we have done"We are all unprofitable servants..Maybe even our sufferings, "Oh, how we have suffered for..." can't even finish the sentence, likely most of it is deserved to begin with and if it is from the Lord, no wonder the saints rejoiced at being able to "partake in the sufferings of our Lord" What an honor to partake of that holiness...but as some kind of merit or to say "But Lord..." is rubbish...If you were used to save a million souls what would it matter? You still would come the same way as the man who cried "have mercy on me, a sinner" in fact it is the only way you will come..."This man was justified" not in and of himself, but by the Lord. It is He who exalts, it is He who lift's up.So if on the one hand there are 'many' that will dare to 'say' "Lord, Lord" as if their works have earned them a 'right', perhaps the other, the one that "... does the will of my Father in heaven." Who, if this is true will have produced fruit, still says "Lord, Lord,...have mercy on me a sinner!" Let us consider Him! If we do rightly consider, we will be humbled every time. Certainly our best is only "our reasonable service".This may be a bit disjointed, but consider the source :-)

In God we trust? or In ourselves we trust? Quote:"Thought: That it equals spiritual pride, "Did we not do..." that we would even have the audicity to think we could say "look what we have done" We are all unprofitable servants"My thought exactly"Not everyone who says to me "Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of God" Is it possible that these people will be those on Judgment Day actually bragging and boasting about what they have done. Wonderful works, casting out demons, etc. "Oh Lord remember me, the famous missionary?' or 'Hey Lord, remember me, the big American preacher who gave all those huge altar calls?" Are they trusting in their own works? The Lord will say to them "I never KNEW you." That is key to understanding this.Nahum 1:7 "The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble; and He KNOWS those who trust in Him." I believe those who will boast of their works on Judgment Day are trusting in their works rather then trusting in Christ crusified.2 Tim 2:19 "The Lord knows those who are His" Ezekiel 33:12 "The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS in the day that he sins. When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, BUT HE TRUSTS IN HIS OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die." Ps. 52:7-8 "Here is a man who did not make God his strength, but trusted in the abundance of his righes, and strengthened himself in his wickedness. But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God; I TRUST IN THE MERCY OF GOD forever and ever." Ps. 32:10 "Many sorrows shall be to the wicked; but he who TRUSTS in the Lord, mercy shall surround him." Ps 34:22 "THe Lord redeems the soul of His sercants, AND NONE OF THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIM SHALL BE CONDEMNED." Ps 37:40 "And the Lord shall help them and deliver them; He shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, BECAUSE THEY TRUST IN HIM." Ps 62:8 "TRUST in Him at all times, you people; Pour out your heart before Him; GOD IS A REGUGE FOR US."

Lazarus wrote:"Are they trusting in their own works? The Lord will say to them "I never KNEW you." That is key to understanding this."I believe this identifies the result and not the source of these peoples mistake. If one would continue on in this verse we find the reason why the Lord rejects them."And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me; you who practice lawlessness."Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed. One cannot know the Son unless he follows the commands of His Lord. Remember, Jesus said that He must leave, and that He would send the Counselor. The Counselor would not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears from the Son, He will declare that to the sons of God. Only those who are led by the Spirit are His. "You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." John 18:37In ChristJeff

"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me; you who practice lawlessness."So it will be those who in the eyes of the public casted out demons and did many wonderful works but yet maybe secretly maybe publicly maybe both, practiced lawlessness.

Excellent Philologos! Well said. Quote:"Our acceptance with God is not based in any way upon our contribution but upon Christ's. It is not based on what I do but upon what He has done. The death of the Son of God will forever remain the only basis of our acceptance with God. This is 'justification'; sanctification is another part of the story of salvation."And our belief in it...That is what translates into action:2 Corinthians 5:7-21"We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.11Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[1] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."Thank you for your time....

Those who practice lawlessness are those who do not experience the Cross. Art Katz writes in his book, True Fellowship: To Him Be The Glory In The Church:""The Consequences of the Cross Jesus brought His death upon Himself by His own character, His own life and His message. What then shall be brought upon us if we adopt His character, move in His life, and proclaim his message? The disposition that clamors for prosperity, for “blessings” and the “rapture” as escape is not the spirit that is going to appreciate a message on suffering and the Cross. We know that the spirit of Antichrist is in the world. “Anti” not only means “opposed to,” but also seeking to be something like Him, yet not Him. How shocked and stunned might we be if we were to realize to what degree we ourselves have submitted and may actually be operating in that spirit—if our “Christ” is not the Christ who suffered, died and rose again! We nod our heads to the “doctrine of the Cross,” but in the actuality of our own knowledge and experience where do we essentially live our lives? The Cross is the most unreligious symbol that can ever be imagined. The crucifixion of Jesus, the ending of a life in nakedness that began in nakedness, is the complete negation of every kind of conventional wisdom and religious notion that men could conjure. There is no way to come to an understanding of it by our own reasoning. The fact that we think we have, is contradicted by our lives. We can only come to it in darkness and repentance, and in no other way. It is too perverse, too ugly and too unappealing, for which reasons, only perverse, ugly and unattractive people have never had difficulty in coming to the Cross. We need to not only see Jesus, but also the purpose for which our lives have been called: For is was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings (Heb. 2:10). We were not called to success, happiness, and our own satisfaction, or only to have our own needs met. In fact, we do not have to be clever to realize that this poses a question, namely, if this kind of redemptive suffering was required to make Jesus perfect, by what means then shall we be made perfect? The answer is of course, through exactly the same process by which Jesus entered into perfection ?by the things which He suffered. By sentimentalizing and distorting the Cross, thereby taking the sting out of it, we negate its death and suffering. The Cross should be the central and pivotal event of all our faith and life. All must go dark for us and become as night in the daytime of our comfortable, religious understanding. We have become too used to the Cross, and have made of it only a theory and formula for salvation. We have come to altar call after altar call, and invitation after invitation, laying our lives down before Christ again and again, and yet somehow we are still very much alive. The veil of selfishness, self-interest, vanity and pride is still not rent. The rocks of our hearts are still not split. The Cross of Christ needs to become for us an “event.” There is only one way to enter it, namely, the total negation of all of our life, the doing away of ourselves in the yielding up of the ghost. If His glory is to be manifest in the earth, it shall be only through His resurrection life manifesting through those who have been joined with Him in death and burial, and have been raised with Him into that newness of life. God will only bury that which is dead. We will know that we have entered into the death when we see the evidence of the resurrection. There is a real cutting that requires a real shedding of blood for any covenant of God, and we are in that covenant to the degree to which we have been joined to that cutting. Did we see our water baptism as some kind of biblical obligation, or did we see ourselves as being buried with Him? God knows those who are living in the newness of life and those who are not. Those who are mouthing and pronouncing New Testament terms, and who may actually even be involved in New Testament “ministry,” so to speak, may actually and unconsciously be putting their confidence in their flesh and their own natural ability and aptitude. You can, on that basis, make an impressive show of it ?but it is not newness of life. This is not some religious palaver. We are speaking of an utterly supernatural reality that brings the believer thereby into a new dimension of existence, reality and life. We are in that life or we are not. God has made it absolute. Merely to employ the word “resurrection” and allude to it, quote it, and preach it, does not mean that we have it. What is the evidence of our lives generally speaking and consistently? Are we in the flesh or in the Spirit? How many of us have tried to dismiss condemnation by quoting the Scripture over and over again: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1)—and have not been relieved. You can quote that scripture until you are blue in the face and still be under condemnation, if you are not in Christ Jesus. The pressure of the condemnation is to bring you to that very place. But who likes to be ‘cut,’ and who wants to see blood spilled? The flesh shrinks from it. Only those who love the Crucified One have any desire at all to be joined with Him in that place. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed [because you do not have any other] with Him in glory (Col. 3:3-4 Parenthesis mine). Are we willing to have our lives predicated on that basis, and are we willing to cease our efforts to ‘get by’ on the strength of our own natural ability? Your life is dead except His life be revealed, which means we will be left humiliated often. When we want to shine, be clever, impressive, entertaining or whatever, then He simply will not be there to accommodate us. There will be no glory for us ever, but only glory for Him when His life shall be revealed. We are not living anymore by our own calculations or deliberations. We do not move on the basis of what is logical and reasonable. That is the world’s game. We move by His life. When His life moves, then we move. When His life will be expressed by speaking, then we speak. Trusting for His life, moment by moment, is the faith for which the saints once contended, and the just shall live by this faith."Paul said somewhere, that men preach the gospel for their own gain. Never the less the gospel is preached. The signs and wonders done by these people give witness to the world that God is. A relationship is entirely something different. God is faithful, so what if some were disobedient. Let God be true and everyman a liar. In ChristJeff