WAS PARADISE UP OR DOWN?

hi , my wife was emailed the other day informing her that Jesus didnt descend into hell after his crucifiction.What is your take on this?.....Thanks, David

I read this in Zac Poonen's book A GOOD FOUNDATION Chapter 10. This seems to settle the issue:

"While on the cross, Jesus told the repentant thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. Both Jesus and that thief went to paradise as soon as their souls left their bodies. Jesus had said that after His death, He would be in `the heart of the earth' for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt. 12:40). From this we know that paradise, at that time, must have been in the heart of the earth. But when Christ was resurrected "from the lower parts of the earth.... and ascended on high.. He led captive a host of captives" (Eph. 4:8,9). He took paradise and all the souls in it up to the third heaven.
In 2 Corinthians 12, when we compare verses 2 and 4 together, we see that paradise is now located in the third heaven. This is where the disciple of Jesus goes as soon as he dies (Phil. 1:23)."

Hi,
just like to agree with the analysis below of the thief on the cross and add that when the women entered the tomb and saw Jesus he said touch me not for I have not yet ascended;which means paradice must have been below.The sacrafice could not be touched on the way into the holy of holies.In this case Jesus.
[i][size=xx-small]
"While on the cross, Jesus told the repentant thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. Both Jesus and that thief went to paradise as soon as their souls left their bodies. Jesus had said that after His death, He would be in `the heart of the earth' for 3 days and 3 nights (Matt. 12:40). From this we know that paradise, at that time, must have been in the heart of the earth. But when Christ was resurrected "from the lower parts of the earth.... and ascended on high.. He led captive a host of captives" (Eph. 4:8,9). He took paradise and all the souls in it up to the third heaven.
In 2 Corinthians 12, when we compare verses 2 and 4 together, we see that paradise is now located in the third heaven. This is where the disciple of Jesus goes as soon as he dies (Phil. 1:23)."[/size][/i]
Rgds Staff

Hi
I don't want to get into an argument here. But just one small point of disagreement with Jeanette. Joseph of Arimathea's tomb was on the SURFACE of the earth, not in the HEART of the earth. Jesus meant EXACTLY what He said: "the heart (centre) of the earth". It was not "figurative", as Jeanette states. Also Jesus Himself was NOT in the tomb for 3 days. Only His body was there. He was ALIVE in paradise in the centre of the earth for those 3 days - just as Jonah was alive in the fish's belly.
So I would not be so quick to categorise what a godly man has said as "talking rubbish" (to quote Jeanette again).
I shall not be continuing this discussion.
God bless you all and may we all meet in paradise one day, when we shall get clear answers.
CThom

He was assigned a grave with wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied, by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53:9-11

Hi Jeannette,
Just one thing to add that to the best of my understanding,paradise was also called Abraham's Bosom and was a compartment within hell.So was hell below?You would have to get into hebrew and greek for that one.Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise;so he definitely went to paradise.What did he do there?Paradise was captive in hell.He led captivity captive.But for the rest of the time?
Rgds Staff

hi cthom,I seem to agree with Zac.I was taught this many many years ago and never ran into any altenative teaching untill recently.Actually thought it was clear doctrine, But its good to get challenged!I still have no reason as of yet to believe any differently due to scriprure.It seems clear at this point that Jesus did descend into hell and it seems clear he stripped the devil and took those patriarchs in the adjacent area [paradise] with him to heaven.I know one creed has this and one doesnt Not that it really matters but I wonder why they would leave it out? Does anyone know?........Thanks, David

Hi David,
I had planned to exit from this discussion, but want to come back to make just one clarification. Jesus finished the work of our redemption on Calvary. He said so on the cross: "It is finished". He defeated Satan on the cross itself (Col.2:15 and Heb.2:14). Jesus never went to Hell at any time. The word HADES (Greek) and SHEOL (Hebrew) have been wrongly translated as "Hell" in the KJV. HADES is "The place of departed spirits" and has two sections - Hell (where the rich man went) and Abraham's bosom (or paradise, where poor Lazarus went). Jesus and the repentant thief went to HADES, but to the PARADISE section of HADES. The proclamation Jesus made to the demons about their final defeat (1 Pet.3:19) was made from the Paradise section of Hades. When Jesus ascended, He took Paradise up to the third heaven.
Finally, the important thing is that we all endure to the end and meet in paradise one day. May it be so for all who are in this discussion.
CThom

hi CTom,I looked at those scriptures.I guess my question is not whether anything or everything was accomplished on the cross."it is finished" can signify what it is supposed to or we can ascribe anytthing we want to it. Obviously he had more to do after he releasd his spirit.It seems you are taking a position that on the cross satan was defeated through Jesus death and only Jesus death,that nothing more needed to happen.You may be right.I am still looking hard at this.On the hades or hell issue my greek bible translates it gehenna and also tartarus. But I have no problem if you want to call it hades.The main point is paradise had a place next to it with fire and prople burning up in it.Since you assume Jesus did not cross over to hades you cant say for sure he didnt, you can only assume he didnt.That part to me is pointless Because you only assumee he didnt cross over.Again I am still looking at this.At this point What is in question is did Jesus actually do anything to the devil "Physically so to speak", in hades,sheol,gehenna,tartarus,hell?The scriptures you gave "support your position" I am looking for scripture that support or contradict the other position.Your position assumes a lot and I guess the other position does too.Would love to see more scripture.Thanks for your input. I do appreciate your insight.....David

hi,
Just a point on 1 peter 3.19

[size=xx-small]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;[/size]
The spirits at the time of noah mentioned above were not in prison at the time he preached to them but looking back from Peter's time to Noah's time we can say they are in prison now.
The previous verse below mentions "quickened by the spirit" at the end and at the begining of 19 he says "by which"(in reference to the spirit).What he is saying is he preached in the spirit not in person.
1pet 3.18
[size=x-small]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:[/size]

I'm not categorically saying Christ didnt cross over into the bad side of hell but 1 peter 19 dosent describe christ preaching to spirits in hell.You would have to find scripture elsewhere to support that point of view,
rgds Staff

He bore the punishment for my sin upon himself, in Gethsemane, on the Cross and into death.

The Punishment for sin isn't just physical death, it's eternal separation from God. Well Jesus conquered that death, but he did recieve it's punishment for 3 days.

Now I believe the heart of the earth is just a way of saying he was going to be physically dead (as has already been stated)... I think Zac Poonen may be wrong on this one.

Spiritually he bore our sins before the cross and on the cross, he had been bearing our sins for two days, even if he only spent one more day in punishment that would have been three days. He could have still made a trip on over to Paradise within one day of the cross -I know I'm gonna be called heretical for this.

Thank Jesus for the cross!

Hi,
Just on the scripture below Jesus was in paradise the very day he died.How long he was there?It dosen't say.
[i][size=x-small]Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.[/size][/i]
rgds staff

I dont think anyone here is a heretic,Im sorta glad to get challenged1!Ok there was a definate place next to hades or hell. We know this from the story of lazareth and the rich man.The place Lazareth was is also where the patriarchs were.Jesus Told the thief" Today you will be w\\ me in paradise." So they went.I m hoping someone could explain the" devil got defeated "part.I do realize THe cross is "key" here but I guess I had it in my head That Jesus crossed over And put his foot on satans neck and took back what victory satan had.I could be and prob. am wrong.Sometimes we need to get challenged to air out false supposition.The scriptures brought out so far are good I just dont know if there is more.What do you think?......David

Hi David,
I suppose part of the victory was that he led captivity captive and we should look at why he couldnt do this before his death at the cross,
Rgds staff