Sermon on Nonresistance

Since the other thread on nonresistance I've been thinking about some of the questions people brought up.

Here is a good sermon on nonresistance:

http://www.charityministries.org/tapeministry/audio/3744.mp3

Jordan

Jordan,
Very good sermon, thank you for the link.
Such a blessing to hear True Biblical Nonresistance being proclaimed and to young people at that, praise the Lord, His message is being proclaimed. Oh that more would have ears to hear, soon it will be to late.
May our prayer be, help us to hear Dear Lord what the Spirit is saying unto the church.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Hi Pastorfrin,

Can I ask you a question? What are your thoughts on the other aspects of nonresistance such as voting? I haven't been able to come to any really conclusion with voting, I don't think it's wrong to vote, but there are others who would say that that is part of nonresistance.

God bless,
Jordan

Heh, although you didn't ask me the question I will chime in. I wouldn't link nonresistance to not voting. Two different things really. But I would not vote because voting is a symbolic/literal gesture that you are endorsing the candidate thereof.

I have not found one candidate that I could endorse, for no such candidate exists. Politics is Poly-ticks, my friend.

The Puritanical/postmillenial/etc. mentality would be for voting for a person that pretty much fits into their general mould of beliefs (anti-abortion, etc.)-- the premillenial view differs with this and advocates an implied resistance of sorts to participating in electing politicians as this Earth is basically of the Devil (crafted by him and ran by him throughout the nations) and no matter how hard you try it's impossible to set up a Theocratic Kingdom likened to that of the Kingdom of God literally on this Earth, only He will bring that about.

I admit I'm a bit scattered on this whole deal (hence: take what I say with a grain of salt) but these are my general thoughts and wish not to argue with you if you feel you want to vote for a political candidate-- "all the power to you."

Jordan

(Didn't listen to the sermon, have no idea the true context of it. Don't plan to listen to it but I probably have an idea of its general context... 'less anyone else wants to chime on specifics.)

On the other issue as regarding nonresistance in the popular sense of the word, I do believe it is entirely biblical, however it can be misconstrued and be turned into a vile protestation. Such as people that rebelled against slavery (even if it was nonresistance)-- when they should have been submissive. ('Tis unbiblical when you look at what Paul said concerning it... but that isn't to endorse slavery, it's just to say, if you find yourself born into it, or placed forcefully, the Biblical thing to do is "please/obey your masters.") And people that non-violently resisted against authorities in the South during 60's, and even Gandhi really and his whole 'deal'.

Nonresistance can really be unholy and unbiblical. It can be completely rebellious (have personal experience with this) so one must be careful. Only a few instances really cause it such as when your conscience says you must peacefully resist (I mean when it REALLY says so) in a certain political or social situation such as conscription (for me, at least).

So, one must be careful!

Jordan

Jordan wrote:

Can I ask you a question? What are your thoughts on the other aspects of nonresistance such as voting? I haven't been able to come to any really conclusion with voting, I don't think it's wrong to vote, but there are others who would say that that is part of nonresistance.

Hi Jordan,
I have one King and I cast my vote a long time ago for Him, to follow Him.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Politics are violent and corrupt because they are of this world. Just turn on a news program at any given time and what you hear is not love but hate, one side against the other, no thanks. Those who think our Lord is running a democracy will be disappointed.
Our Lord said His kingdom is not of this world so we are not citizens here, but strangers and pilgrims, our citizenship is in heaven where our Lord Jesus Christ is our representative to the Father and cast our vote for us.
Having said this, let each one do as they have faith “ For whatsoever is not of faith is sin”.

In His Love

pastorfrin

Thanks Jordan and Pastorfrin,

You have both been helpful and I will keep seeking on this matter.

Jordan

Hi, Homefree89,
I am posting an excerpt that I scanned from my Bible interpretation and analysis course textbook - the chapter that deals with what WE bring to the biblical text. This section deals with our own historical-cultural context, and how that can color our Biblical interpretation. I thought you might appreciate these thoughts:
… let's take a "cultural" look at Romans 13:1-7 (This section is targeted primarily at American readers. If you are not an American, please be patient with us in this section. Try to determine a similar situation in your culture.) Read this passage carefully:

'Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience….

With this passage in mind, would it have been wrong for you to participate in the Boston Tea Party of 1773? In protest of a new tax on tea, American "patriots" dumped tons of someone else's tea into the Boston Harbor. Was that a Christian thing to do? Or suppose you were one of the Minutemen along the route between Concord and Boston on April 19, 1775. Should a Christian aim, fire, and kill the soldiers that represent the government? Does this not conflict with Romans 13? Or perhaps the larger question should be asked: Was the American Revolution undertaken in disobedience to Romans 13:1-7? Keep in mind that the Revolution was more about economics than about religious freedom.

Remember too that when Paul wrote Romans, the government in Rome was much more oppressive and tyrannical than the British government under King George III ever was. What do you think?

Perhaps we have angered some of you. Perhaps you are steamed-up about our challenge to the legitimacy of the glorious American Revolution. Please forgive us. We are not really concerned with what you think about the Revolution. What we hope you saw was some inner emotional reaction within yourself to a fairly literal and normal reading of a biblical text. If you reacted strongly to our suggested understanding of Romans 13, you should ask yourself, Why did I react so strongly? We would suggest that we struck a sensitive cultural nerve.

You see, the morality of the American rebellion against Britain is never questioned as we grow up. It is always presented as wonderful and glorious—the epitome of patriotism (which must be good). It is tightly intertwined in our hearts with the flag, baseball, Mom, and apple pie. Thus it has become sacred. We place the "rightness" of it over any critique or challenge to it that may come from the Bible. Any interpretation of Romans 13 that can possibly be legitimate must comply with respect for the Revolution. Thus we place our culture over the Bible, and we become closed-minded to any understanding of the Bible that conflicts with the status quo of our culture.
Of course the Revolution is more complicated than we have admitted. Our purpose is not so much to criticize it as to use it as an illustration. However, we do want you (American readers) to see that there are American things that exert a powerful subconscious influence on the way we read and interpret the Bible. We need to be aware of these influences and to be conscious of their effect on our study. It is important that we at least be open to the possibility that Romans 13 may be critical of the Revolution. We are looking for what God is saying and not what our culture is saying. We must look to the details of the text and its historical setting to determine the answer, not to our own culture-driven preunderstanding.

If we start our interpretive analysis of Romans 13:1-7 with the preconceived, forgone conclusion that it cannot be critical of the Revolution, we are then placing our culture above the Bible. Jesus, however, calls us to a higher calling! We are citizens of his kingdom, pledged to follow him and his teachings. We should never place our loyalty to our country and culture above our loyalty to God. Regardless of what you think about the Revolution, we hope you grasp the idea that we must be able to put all of our American culture on the table under the scrutiny of Scripture. Never should we allow our culture to dictate the meaning of the Word of God.

This is radical stuff and may be difficult for you to digest all at once. We know that. Mull on it for a while. Talk to Christians from different cultures and get their perspective....

Taken from “Grasping God’s Word, A Hands on Approach to Reading, Interpreting, and Applying the Bible”, by Duvall and Hays

God bless you as you mull this over ...
Diane

Diane wrote:

With this passage in mind, would it have been wrong for you to participate in the Boston Tea Party of 1773? In protest of a new tax on tea, American "patriots" dumped tons of someone else's tea into the Boston Harbor. Was that a Christian thing to do? Or suppose you were one of the Minutemen along the route between Concord and Boston on April 19, 1775. Should a Christian aim, fire, and kill the soldiers that represent the government? Does this not conflict with Romans 13?

Diane, you make a valid point. The writer is right when he says:

You see, the morality of the American rebellion against Britain is never questioned as we grow up.

This idea was a new one until I heard someone in recent years say how the Amish/Mennonite immigrants refused to render aid to the revolutionaries for the reasons quoted above and as a result were considered tories which did not sit well for them.

Since I live now in the USA in 2007, I believe - according to Scripture - it is my obligation to pay my taxes and be a law abiding citizen according to Romans 13. But do I vote? I, too, am asking the same question. We have voted in the past and I am experiencing doubts.

The local situation is that the politicans are so corrupt, you vote for who you think would be honest, but how do I know this is really the case? Now this is the practical issue. What about the spiritual one? Pastorfrin made the point how we are strangers and pilgrims and they have no rights in an alien land (at least in most countries) so how does this look like where the rubber meets the road? So if I do not vote, I will not be called to jury duty...

Yes, I am thinking and wondering how the LORD is going to lead us...the longer it goes I get the feeling my presense at the polling place is history...

ginnyrose

Hi Diane,

That is very interesting stuff. I have struggled with the American Revolution and have written a paper about it examining it in light of Scripture.

Thanks for sharing that!

Jordan

Some very good stuff. Reading through all these wondered how this verse might apply;

[i]But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another[/i]
Matt 10:23 (KJV)

We should never place our loyalty to our country and culture above our loyalty to God.

James 5:

10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

James 5:12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment.

When one enters into an oath, he is at the mercy of the one he swears alegiance to. There is only One who's name must be hallowed. The Lord will preserve those who hallow His name.

2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
\t“I will dwell in them
\tAnd walk among them.
\tI will be their God,
\tAnd they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore
\t“Come out from among them
\tAnd be separate, says the Lord.
\tDo not touch what is unclean,
\tAnd I will receive you.”
18 \t“I will be a Father to you,
\tAnd you shall be My sons and daughters,
\tSays the LORD Almighty.”

In Christ
Jeff

Ginnyrose said:

This idea was a new one until...

talk to Christians from different cultures and get their perspective....

Canada, of course, has adopted many of the US’s cultural values. Yet there are a few differences (to some extent) – especially regarding the exertion of power in order to put others where we want them to be. And that doesn’t only refer to political/military maneuvering. A Canadian lady recently visited the US and found herself in a traffic situation where she held up some drivers behind her. She did not expect that sudden honking of horns coming from all around her. It shocked and unnerved her, and she couldn’t focus on her driving. Of course, that would not be troubling to those accustomed to it; but it does expose an assertive characteristic of American culture - that is perhaps more easily seen from the outside.

While resistance/domination is regarded as a cultural virtue that pertains to war, it cannot help but filter down into all walks of life – besides international/political affairs. Consider its effect even in conservative evangelical religion – where one feels quite justified in using power (with words, etc) to subdue those in the wrong, or assert oneself over sinners. Ex:

"I want those in the wrong to know that I won’t stand for it!"
"I’m not going to “let”….."
"I just won't "allow" ..."
"They need to know..."

That is exactly how I heard US political leaders speak about Iran (along with some power-posturing and threats) - but does that method have a place in the lives of Christ’s followers - ever? Is policing our calling – regarding the way we deal with others? How can we view that as our calling when it is contrary to the very character and teaching of Christ. Are we not to exemplify his character?

Jesus said, “Turn the other cheek” To me, that is the ultimate in non-resistance! What did he mean? (It certainly is NOT politically correct)

What about the way we communicate with each other – whether in our families, churches, communities, or here? Just how much freedom has God given us to resist another with what would seem like verbal swords (often referred to as “rebuke”)?

Diane

Sister Diane,
You wrote:

Certainly, it is extremely difficult to see where we are influenced by cultural values – especially when we are in the middle of it. Our values seem right to us, and so we can’t imagine that the Bible could ever contradict them! Most of our values are unconscious. That’s why the value of the earlier suggestion:

Sister, do you think it may be a lack of knowing
what the Word of God actually says about non-resistance. Then if you combine lack of knowledge, along with what is being said from the pulpit, mans word supersedes God's Word.

Shortly after I was discharded from the service
my wife and I began to attend the Wesleyan church, where we were married. We had recently
recommitted our lives to the Lord and I could not get enough of God's word. I studied for hours at a time, month after month, and one thing that jumped off the pages was Our Lord's
teaching on non-resistance. So of course I took what I had discovered to our SS class which the
pastor was teaching. I will never forget the response of those people and the pastor.
It was as if I slapped them in the face. They attacked like wild dogs. I quoted scripture to no avail, they literally wanted to stone me.
This went on for several weeks and one Sunday morning the pastor said to the class, I want us all to read together Matthew 5, after we had finished reading he broke down in tears and said I have been wrong and I have asked the Lord's forgiveness and now I am asking for all of yours.
He went on to say, our brother is right in what he says the Lord has taught him, we as christians
must obey our Lord and practice non-resistance.
Needless to say I almost fell on the floor, but instead we all (well some of us) hugged one another and the whole atmosphere in the class changed, all because people saw what Jesus really said.
Praise the Lord if we would only look at His Word and it be our guide. Culture can literally
send us to Hell if it replaces the Word of God.

In His Love

pastorfrin

That is a wonderful testimony.
Thanks for sharing that brother.

Sister, do you think it may be a lack of knowing
what the Word of God actually says about non-resistance. Then if you combine lack of knowledge, along with what is being said from the pulpit, mans word supersedes God's Word.

Ginnyrose said,

…. we are strangers and pilgrims and they have no rights in an alien land (at least in most countries) so how does this look like where the rubber meets the road? So if I do not vote, I will not be called to jury duty...

Yes, I am thinking and wondering how the LORD is going to lead us...the longer it goes I get the feeling my presense at the polling place is history...

I believe that it is our real enemy, the devil who tries to get us overly obsessed with our opponents, enemies, and all the bad stuff in the world so that we will keep our eyes off of God, and remain in a state of weak faith.

I use the analogy of junk food: We can be so focused on the problems of junk food, campaigning against it, resisting, etc that we fail to learn about good food. In fact, the day could suddenly come when we wake up and realize that we have never served a proper nutritious meal in our entire lifetime – either to ourselves, or to anyone else. In other words, setting a life-time occupation of resisting the effects of the kingdom of the world merely leaves a vacuum at best. We’d do far better by focusing on our relationsnhip and participation with God – of ushering in his kingdom. Isn’t that our calling?

“But seek first the kingdom of God…. “
"Thy kingdom come..."

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another
Matt 10:23 (KJV)

Diane

Interesting thread...just a couple scattered comments...

Diane wrote:
Jesus said, “Turn the other cheek” To me, that is the ultimate in non-resistance! What did he mean? (It certainly is NOT politically correct)

This statement explains well why pacifism is not Biblical but Biblical nonresistance is. Pacifism works to incorporate this principle in how a government is to be run/operated and it does not work. The civil authorites mission is totally different and that is to restrain the work of evil men. In accomplishing this, physical force needs to be used. The purpose of the church is to evangelize. So now we have in this world the civil authorities and the church, both legitimate ministries (Romans 13:4) ordained by God. The way each functions is totally different, using different methods.

Diane wrote:
Add to that the fact that the information we receive in the media has been spun in such a way as to manipulate our minds and gain our allegiance.

Yeah, if you vote for me or give money to this cause we will fight this moral issue, fix it and everyone will live happily ever after! :-P Unfortunately, the problems still persists and are getting worse.

Blesings,
ginnyrose

I will never forget the response of those people and the pastor.It was as if I slapped them in the face. They attacked like wild dogs. I quoted scripture to no avail, they literally wanted to stone me.This went on for several weeks and one Sunday morning the pastor said to the class, I want us all to read together Matthew 5, after we had finished reading he broke down in tears and said I have been wrong and I have asked the Lord's forgiveness and now I am asking for all of yours.

This is a real blessing of a testimony.

One thing I can say is that our preoccupation with the affairs of this world can rob us of our much-needed time and focus on the kingdom of God – and so we become spiritually impoverished. Add to that the fact that the information we receive in the media has been spun in such a way as to manipulate our minds and gain our allegiance.

These days everything we know seems to come from the media. Yet I have arrived at a deep conviction that a person who protects their ears and eyes from the media is wiser then someone who allows their minds to become unsound from too much exposure to the political and idealogical radiation of this world. I have found it very difficult to be attuned towards the Kingdom of God if we spend much time meditating on the thoughts of men like Ted Koppel. Thier precepts are not Christs.

MC

MC wrote:
These days everything we know seems to come from the media. Yet I have arrived at a deep conviction that a person who protects their ears and eyes from the media is wiser then someone who allows their minds to become unsound from too much exposure to the political and idealogical radiation of this world. I have found it very difficult to be attuned towards the Kingdom of God if we spend much time meditating on the thoughts of men like Ted Koppel. Thier precepts are not Christs.

I, too, am finding it the same...and this comes from someone who used to know everything that was going on in the political world. The weaning process started with Watergate! God accomplished one thing is allowing that to happen.

ginnyrose

Hi All,
I was just reading Micah and this jumped out at me, seems to fit in with our dicussion.

Micah 7:1-7
Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit. [2] The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
[3] That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up. [4] The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
[5] Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. [6] For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house. [7] Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

He gives us the solution in vs. 7
" Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Not man nor politics, not riches or vain glory,
not government, country or war, but who do I vote
for, The God Of My SALVATION; HE WILL HEAR me.
Praise the Name of Jesus, He is our Deliverer.
Yes, I will look unto my LORD.

In His Love

pastorfrin