church rebuked

Why do we preach so much against other Christians when there are millions around the world who have never heard the name of Jesus?

Philippians 1:15-18

15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18 [b]What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do [i]rejoice[/i], yea, and will rejoice[/b].

Are you rejoicing that Christ is preached, even by someone who may not necessarily believe the same things you do, or out of wrong motives... Paul, wrapped in chains could rejoice that the name of Jesus was being preached even though the preachers were filled with all kinds of evil and sin. We sit and judge churches, preach against them, if you have that much of a problem with *that* church, don't go there!

And when you find the perfect church, don't go there either, you'll just end up messing it up.

Why do we preach so much against other Christians when there are millions around the world who have never heard the name of Jesus?

I understand your thinking here but, if we are to apply this logic then we must question why Jeremiah, for example, wasn't sent to speak to the Gentile nations instead of Judah. You see, God has always worked through a church, a corparate expression of His glory. When that expression is corrupted it needs to be rebuked and restored in love. Isn't this what Jesus did with the churches in Asia?

Are you rejoicing that Christ is preached, even by someone who may not necessarily believe the same things you do, or out of wrong motives.

Indeed Paul could rejoice that Christ was preached even if only part of the gospel was preached, but, in his letters he clearly spoke out against contention, envy, strife, and pretense which was the manner of the preaching he was referring to in Philippians 1. I think Paul's point is that God may make use of such things even though the speakers themselves may be disqualified. However, a full expression of Christ is what God desires. Therefore, in love and compassion, seeking to restore, such preachers will be rebuked.

In Christ,

Ron

There is probably a remnant in that church, just as there was a remnant during the times of the prophets and during the time of George Fox. There are probably also people among your congregation that are damned, and many 'hell-fire, bible beating' preachers who haven't been sealed for the day of judgement.

My point is simply this, why do we preach against other churches when there are people outside of our church, outside of that other church that have never heard the Gospel.

Paul could rejoice, because despite the fact that these men's motives were wrong, that their hearts were filled with deceipt, that they were preaching a compromised gospel, the gospel was still being preached.

You see, when we talk about Jesus we are opening a door, even if someone doesn't know what he's talking about God can still use that opportunity. I went to that church's website and I didn't find anything that jumped out at me as heretical or worth preaching against -just because they don't preach about Jesus the same way that you do doesn't mean they're wrong. And even if they are wrong, they may get some people to open up their bibles -and I want to make one thing straight.

If you put a bible in someone's hands, they could hear luke-warm and heritical sermons all their lives, but if they dig into the word they're going to meet the creator of the universe -a holy and mighty God that transcends human churches and human preaching. If that church, even if they preacha compromised gospel is putting bibles in the hands of people then they're taking at least one step in the right direction.

If that church is getting people to think about Jesus, even if they're not getting the whole picture, that's a door that Jesus is going to use to enter their lives -at least some of them.

Paul warned about another Jesus being preached.

Shouldn't you be weeping that they made a mockery out of Jesus? That they were laughing at ill humour agaist God?

Why aren't you grieved and in brokeness that Jesus was mocked by those who profess to be His children? It is better to be mocked by the lost, that don't know the truth then by those who claim to know the truth.

Where is your heart?

myfirstlove,

I am grieved for the sake of Jesus... over millions all over the world who are being cast into an eternal hell without a chance to ever hear the name of Jesus.

Several years ago there was a TV show in Britain that had a comedic portrayal of Jesus, do you know who got it taken off the air? I'd like to answer 'the Christian church.' No, it was Muslims! Muslims complained that the television show was making a lewd portayal of one of their prophets!

It pains me that we preach Jesus as a 'buddy,' someone that we can poke fun at, someone to hang out with. Not that Jesus wasn't those things, but in the description of Jesus in Revelation is an entirely different story. We are told that we are able to approach the throne with confidence, but John, the one whom Jesus loved fell down as dead.

Revelation 1:10-

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17[b]And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead[/b]. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Even though John had a close relationship with Jesus in his human form, John could not stand when he encountered the glorified Jesus! This is not someone to be mocked, or made fun of... he isn't your buddy and certainly isn't going to find the humor in any video that portrays him without reverence.

But we cannot forget that Jesus is also grace, and though our eyes have been open to respect him in this way, we should not condemn those who haven't seen him this way. A lot of people get hung up on the love of Christ and never grow in their faith... we're so quick to rebuke to cut someone down when we should be admonishing them for the sake of their spiritual growth.

One of the best sermons i've ever heard on the nature of the glorified Christ in revelation was given by Mark Driscol at Mars Hill Church in Seattle. Many people are pretty tough on Mars Hill because of it's lax teachings on music, drinking, clothing etc... but when I visited I heard a sermon about Jesus that knocked me down to my knees.

Maybe I'm lax with this other church because I'm willing to see them with grace, or because I'd rather be on the mission field than accusing my fellow believers.

Search your heart thismorning and see if you are right with Christ, if you have a full understanding of his grace and mercy before you seek to admonish someone else over their lack thereof. Test yourself in light of the Spirit and scripture, cleanse your own heart of any unrighteousness.

I firmly believe that Paul was light years ahead of me when he wrote the words I have already written from Philippians... although this doesn't mean that I can't live a higher dimensional life like him. He didn't let other people's lack of faith stumble his own. We also have to remember that he PLANTED these churches that he was writing to (except for the one in Rome) and that he had authority to rebuke them, and to warn them against false teachers.

When you have been raised up to leadership in a congregation, then you have the task and the burden to rebuke the church -and it's a burden, sometimes it seems like many people take pleasure in rebuking others... i firmly believe that Paul grieved and prayed for hours before saying one word or penning one line of scripture.

I love Leonard Ravenhill, I can say Amen after almost every paragraph that he's ever written... but he was in a role of spiritual leadership, he was a Pastor to Pastors... most of the preaching that we hear by him was done in his 70's and 80's, he was a man who spent two or more (usually more) hours in prayer a day... one of the greatest lines I've ever read from him is, '[b]We never pray about the folks that we gossip about, and we never gossip about the folks that we pray for.[/b]'

Even if these people were right in rebuking this church, have we prayed for this church or do we just glory in the rebuke that they were given, do we *cheer* for the rebuker... or are we praying for the rebuked. Where is our heart? We say that we want them to experience genuine salvation, a full gospel... when you read this did you stop to think and pray for this congregation? Did you put them on your prayer list? Did you even think to pray for them at all? [b]Sure their salvation is important, but is it important enough for you to spend even 15 seconds in prayer for[/b]? I hope you can see that I'm frustrated!

jimdied2sin,

Praise the Lord! I will definitely make sure to pray for you and your time with the small group leader from Kensington.

Megachurches are not inherently bad... just like a cruise ship is not inherently bad, when it's on course everyone on board is on course... but if it strays from the narrow path than it takes many more with it than a smaller churches -but we shouldn't decieve ourselves, there are thousands and thousands of small churches that are in error also, and if you add up their membership they would rival any mega-church.

In this way a mega-church can even be a blessing, because if the true Gospel is preached (and it is at some mega-churches) then thousands of believers can be equipped and given a the same vision -not that God needs our numbers.

With this specific church there has been a challenge to get on course, we need to pray that the Spirit intervenes and sets these believers back in line with His Word, on the narrow path.

I think someone had posted a link to these films a few week ago. The description from the article...

"During the service, a video was played that portrayed a very blasphemous image of Christ driving out the moneychangers from the Temple as a satirical joke. It seemed to be a very old film out of which the sound was removed and voice-over effects were place on it. As “Jesus” in the film was flipping over tables in a humorous way, they had his voice saying terrible things like “Sinners”, and “You’re going to hell!” in a very mocking way to make it all a big jest.

I'm glad these people protested this film. Even though Jesus' name was mentioned, this videos malignment of the scriptural account of Jesus cleansing he temple and the lack of respect shown for the savior is a huge step in the wrong direction. Even many unbelievers start out knowing better then to snicker and giggle about God.

If the church you attend ever resorts to such vulgar pandering to the crowd, defecting from Her first Love to win the chuckles of carnal people...I might suggest a different strategy then protesting. You might calmly stand up, quietly walk out of the sanctuary, and make your way down the hall to the breaker box for the building where you would cut the power to the sanctuary. Besides peacefully ending the unhealthy defacement of God's Word, the sudden darkness would serve as a useful metaphor for the spiritual condition of that place.

MC

Saints,

When the Laodicean church is being rebuked by the spirit for it's lukewarm condition; Jesus doesn't say to them "run for your lives", instead he tells them to "buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of the nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore, and repent.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if ANY man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Notice how Christ couples his righteous indignation with longsuffering and gentleness.

In verse 16 he is ready to spew the lukewarm out of his mouth and then in verse 20 he is willing to sup with them who repent.

Murray

Well I think the heart of this is a difference in view on our parts -what you see as them worshiping a different Jesus, implies that they have no relationship with the real Jesus. Whereas I would extend them the benefit that they are in a state of immaturity and spiritual ignorance. I don't think it's one or the other, I think it's probably a mix of both. We need to be careful to tell believers they're not saved, and we also need to be careful not to say to unbelievers to grow up. Unbelievers need to be saved and believers need to grow up.

When we go around saying, 'well they're not worshipping the real Jesus,' you might as well go around chopping people up! Paul had a chopping ministry, Barnabus had a healing ministry -the church needs them both!

Among my local church I'm known for being, 'serious.' There are others among my congregation who stay away from me because I confront the way that they're living their lives... I could get the wrong notion that these people are lost, or I could just realize that they're immature. I'm immature too... my answer before was to confront them and show them their speck, but it turned out most of the time I was walking around with a plank in my eye. Even though my motives were right, and my observation was correct, my actions were completely wrong.

I acted like a Paul, but God wants me to be a Barnabus! It may be different for you.

The video in question was probably the one released by Vintage21, a Acts 29 member church (a church planting ministry of Mars Hill church in Seattle).

Mars Hill, although they are a mega-church, preaches an unflinching Gospel, with a correct biblical Jesus. Vintage 21, related through it's ministry to Mars Hill released those horrible videos... and obviously someone made a mistake of playing them at Kensington.

If we were to look at it without discernment we would blanket all three of these churches with condemnation... but that would be error. We need to realize that there are unbelievers and believers in these congregations. Mature and immature. We have been given a view to see their mote, but we also have to be careful how we approach them because we could have a plank in our own eye of unlove or condemnation.

That is why prayer is so important, and why I quoted Leonard's quote on gossip. Although seemingly unrelated I think it is directly applicable... if we're praying our motives will be purified. Leonard Ravenhill said that prayer was a great detergent! Prayer cleanses us not only of our sin, but helps us to see the beam in our eyes and seek repentence before we seek to admonish anyone else. Prayer will also prepare us to confront others with their sin, because we will have their best in mind.

My greatest fear is that someone will say all the right things to a church in admonishment but be doing it for all the wrong reasons. Leonard Ravenhill rebuked the church but he wanted to see revival, he wanted to see Jesus glorified. We can so easily emulate him and his rebuking of others but for our own glory, for our own pride, to prove that we are a macho christian and our view of Jesus is best... that is what I have seen in myself and what I have to repent of.

In verse 16 he is ready to spew the lukewarm out of his mouth and then in verse 20 he is willing to sup with them who repent.

Good word Murdog.

Thanks,

MC

Either Give Us A Revival–Or A Funeral

Did you know that in the lifetime of the average American they will be presented the Gospel hundreds of times, and often take for granted the treasure they're being offered.

There are hundreds of millions of people in some of the most horrible physical conditions in the world who are crying out for a relationship with God, but they aren't being answered because we're still here, in America.

Revival and Missions go hand in hand. Do we want to raise up a generation for the Lord? What do we raise them up for? To storm the gates, to save the lost... or to fill the pews of our local church. Are we raising up prayer warriors and frontier missionaries or are we more concerned with making converts that tithe faithfully.

There is revival in the world right now, I can name multiple countries that are currently experiencing revival around the world... but none of them speak English. America is still digging it's grave.

What we need is mature believers, what we need are missionaries and prayer warriors! You want to rebuke a church... find out how many of their congregation has ever considered missions. Find out how much time their average member spends a day in prayer. Even among our 'best' churches we might still find that compared with the biblical and historical examples of our faith we fall so short!

The Moravians used to go to the mission field expecting to die -this was more than symbolic, it was a regular practice for them to pack all their belongings for the trip in a coffin.

The Moravians knew about prayer, they experienced revival and a move of the Spirit that maybe no other church since has come close to... and what did they do? They went out! They didn't just stay in their quaint little German hamlet, they went to the ends of the earth with the Gospel as the first protestant missionary movement. Their lives were planted on the mission field, their sacrifices were a pleasing aroma to the Lord.

In comparison, American Christianity even at some of our 'best' churches is still a stench to the Lord. Instead of seeing ourselves in the view of our fathers of Faith, or comparing ourselves with the Gospel accounts of the early church we compare ourselves with the churches around us, and we look pretty good! But we're a stench to Him in our smugness! Here we are throwing mud at eachother argueing over who has the true Gospel -if we were visited by Paul Washer's peruvian congregation they may say that neither of us has the Gospel.

There is more persecution among believers today than at any other time in history... maybe not in America, but there are people dying for the sake of the Gospel all around the world. Yet even the 'best' American Christians would rather debate about KJV vs. NIV, or Jesus' portrayal in films in some church in Detroit than get down on their knees and pray for a world dying without Jesus. Remember, Sodom Had No bible... and most Americans have heard the Gospel hundreds of times and there are bibles in every hotel room that prostitution occurs. We, the church of America are going to be responsible for this generation at the judgement.

'This generation of believers is responsible for this generation of souls around the world.' -Keith Green.