Flawed Interpretation

Made mention of this elsewhere and recognize this may well present a great possibility of misunderstanding. Still I hope somehow the point is not lost ...

On the way home from work I periodically listen to a program that is the equivalent of a Christian talk show. A discussion topic is forwarded and callers are welcomed to respond. Have been hearing this for years and it seems without fail someone will preempt their comments with;

[i]"Everybody interrupts the scriptures differently"[/i]

On the face of it there is no denying this fact but I find myself expressing out loud that this ought not to be so. The problem is this settled idea that we can then sit down into this comfort, accept it and basically just give up on the whole idea of finding a [i]true[/i] interpretation as if it was so elusive, so completely shrouded in mystery (of course that element), so impossible that no effort is required beyond what "fit's" or finds an easy acceptability to our fallen, frail and fractured carnal minds.

It is an anti-Berean mindset that certainly must be influenced by the very devil himself. Who else was ever so skilled in manipulating scriptures, appealing to them out of context and had so great an audacity to attempt to 'outwit' even the Lord Himself? That Christians would align themselves with the prerogative of the devil even unwittingly is beyond even the worst of my imagination, can't tell whether to cry a mountain of tears or to scream it from the house tops ... This is a lie from the pit of hell!

Look at what this mindset has created. Camps and divisions. "Denominations" and I will honestly confess I have flip flopped on this countless times, at the moment, Ravenhill's equating them as "Abominations" more fitting. These constructs ultimately in the greater part amount to nothing more than settling on a parsed attribute or set of 'like-minded' sectioning of that which is not sectional at all. It is a whole;

Num 22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Jer 23:36 [b]And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God[/b].

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by [u]every word[/u] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Excerpts, scripture verses. The Lord Himself appealing to His own Word. Whole discourses are possible just from this sampling and of course ... [i]our interpretation[/i] even this fools opinion's and if I am saying anything at all they are worthless, errant and in need of adjustment, rebuke, correction ... anything than to be left to a carnal minds interpretation.

Iron sharpens iron yet it becomes something of a catch phrase rather than a Holy desire to know and understand what was [i]meant[/i]! We will sooner settle down under one or a number of fallen mans notions as [i]fact[/i] and do the unbelievable by granting ourselves titles and labels ...

"I hold to _____"
"I am a _____"

No! You are not a Calvinist or a Baptist or a helpless follower of a lone construct, a member of The 500th Regiment of The First Church of Jesus Christ Presbyterian Apostolic Wesleyan Edwards Finney. No! No! No!

Obviously, I am a bit besides myself here so pardon the exuberance and even overexertion to stress the point, it is on purpose...

But saints, look and observe closely just what is presented here on SermonIndex. "One" lone construct or notion? See how difficult this is ... Seems I am speaking out of both sides of my mouth here. Is there really any interest in forcing anyone into a particular 'out take' if you will? Are we yet manipulators? It is laughable in the right sense to hear an idea of this place being either 'Charismatic' or anti-this, that or the other, whatever the label. The great pains taken to promote nothing on the one hand and everything that pertains to true holiness (What a mangled mess has been made of this great attribute) and longing for that which only God can do and that is [i][b]Revival[/b].[/i] What might become of so much jostling for position in 'doctrine' in a state of revival? Seems the past outpourings have always settled the matter quite sufficently until spiritual men are soon drawn back off their moorings into a complacent reactionary appealing to their own minds and the whole thing just breaks down and the fleshly matter takes over again. We are desperately in need of Revival and a humbling into silence, that true leveling of where man stands before His God.

Is any of us stupid enough to not recognize the sheer hypocrisy evident of speaking beyond our understanding, appealing only to that we hold as dear without being challenged and far more importantly, to relinquish these things when proven faulty? That is a dangerous statement I full well know and likely botched to the nth degree. To put it plainly, do we really wish to hold [i]our own interpretations[/i], those of others despite these lingering doubts that must be subdued to save face or that diabolical lie that it might cause us some 'embarrassment'? Will we continue to lie to our ourselves when we know that we [i]don't[/i] know many things, give prescribed answers to things we don't even fully comprehend?

Are we yet teachable? [i]Willing[/i] to stand corrected? Do we welcome it? [i]Desire[/i] it? Have a Holy [i]must[/i] to ...

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That [i]anything[/i] and [i]everything[/i] short of this is ... [i]useless[/i]! Oh, this is very difficult to couch in the right stringing of words together. What am I trying to say?

Opposites.

Keep finding far too many instances where we as Christians are doing the exact [i]opposite[/i] of what we have been instructed, [i]commanded[/i] even. We turn the great life giving truths inside out and upside down. We will argue forever and a day about injustice to our poor psyches and not do what Jesus did. [i]Suffer[/i]! (A whole other discourse on this as if that means a great deal ...) And we certainly will not accept suffering misunderstanding without having to right ourselves with endless defenses. "Go two miles" and we want to argue about it, craft some kind of over exaggerated, mathematical scientific investigation about it, torque it into some pragmatic, humanistic construct, reason whether that is what He meant or if applies to "our day" ... It is incredulous the things that are of a simple understanding made null by our carnal minds and their heightened sense of importance.

"Bless those who persecute you" and we scream "Rights!" "Justice!"

Luk 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Right on through ... the exact opposite. For some diabolical reason we largely will not accept the great paradox that act's completely against the worlds way of doing things. We will not "[i][b]have this Man to rule over us[/b][/i]" is what it often amounts to. We really do not believe what He said and [i]accept[/i] it whether we like it or not and that is the last, no, it should not even be a consideration whatsoever.

We ought not be surprised at the apostasy that has infiltrated the church when by and large what may be said of us is perfectly stated in;

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Is made opposite and the inclination is;

Jdg 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Is there no King in Israel? Has He not come? And yet ...

The things we will grind into oblivion. Things not emphatically stated nor inferred we [i]must[/i] dissect as some great puzzle to figure out. Election and predestination, what is 'imputed' or 'imparted', where the location of the 'will' is as if it was some organ that could be transplanted. All these man made doctrines and arguments that even the inspired writers never had controversy about, why us? Why, I ask, do we care so much about these things? Not that they are not worth discussing in the right comparing with scripture to only [i]see if [u]it be so[/u][/i] but the weight of importance given them, the rationale that allows for [i]doctrine[/i] to be made of them, "holdings" I would couch it, better [i]clutching[/i], as it seems to pry the fingers off of them is to take the babies rattle ...

Higher learning (or is it 'higher criticism'?) is either a curse or a blessing depending on just one thing; Men's knowledge and the feeding of his insatiable pride or a great diligence to get at the heart of the matter, what [b]He[/b] meant and the love of knowing that no matter what the expense, no matter what must be set down, no matter what the cost, seeming embarrassment or humility ...

How slow and how infrequent is the voice heard that has reconsidered? Changed their mind, allowed an intrusion to upset preconceived notions to come forth? It is rare indeed. Nothing can be held in abeyance any longer and some sinister idea that we must have an explanation for everything has taken it's place.

Creation as example. We don't know anything beyond what is stated ([b][i]Written![/i][/b]) and that which is observable so rather than being honest and saying "We don't know" we hypothesize and speculate and theorize and make [i]that[/i] fact and 'truth', we hold to it. Such nonsense!

Who and how the God of that creation saves a soul, we think it is really [i]ourselves[/i] that do this but hardly will admit it. Why else would [i]we[/i] be 'leading someone in the sinners prayer'? What 'sinners prayer'? There is no such thing in scripture that can be appealed to without being really super clever about it. So because it has become common it is just accepted as gospel. Bring a challenge to it and the voices start having a conniption. Lead a soul to the Lord and let the sinner do his own praying. And for crying out loud get yourself clear out of the way in the matter.

There is a hundred and one examples that could be made of where we err and err greatly. I certainly hope the last thing anyone does is ever accept even these ramblings as 'my interpretation', my notions, my opinion, my anything. I couldn't care less about what is thought of the fool in this regard nor is that this other bizzare notion that holds to not caring what their Brethren think as a rebellion against them... It is all rather besides the point. To repeat what our own Philologos mentioned long ago, don't you dare take my word for it, test it in light of the scriptures. That is the bottom line.

We certainly need to dispel one great faulty notion about those more learned than ourselves, those that are true and proven by their character, which is [i]love[/i], real love of the Lord and His people, and that is this idea of being "Know it all's" or self-righetous. We far too often have too much suspicion and accusation about each other, about the Brethren and that always leads to strife and contention and evil imaginations. There is a true higher learning that is expensed by those given to apply themselves to years of study, who can dig down deep into the roots of matters, can give us all an education in the the things of God, who understand the nuances and finite meanings of the Greek and Hebrew word tense and we ought not to cast everything out the window because it unsettles our preconceived notions. Though it is rare, have seen even these self-sacrificing saints reverse course by being willing to just reconsider. And to boot, their hard wrought knowledge is given out freely to be fed on by the underlings. Us.

This is more than a mouthful and feel I have still left a great deal unsaid, even again mangled the very expression that is crying to get out. It will be misinterpreted on it's own and am quite sure it is in err in places as well. But we ought not fear applying ourselves to instruction nor have suspicious minds about comparing scripture with scripture, iron sharpening iron, nor appealing to the WHOLE council of Gods Word. This idea that there is everybody's interpretation as a settled matter is just wrong and if we give up on this line or approach it as somehow forever elusive that we can "agree to disagree" ... To be honest heard that elsewhere, that this was a faulty concept and at first it struck me sideways, as a matter of fact and maybe it planted the first seeds of this whole thing. They where disagreeing with the statement itself! And I was thinking the whole thing was just kind of silly, even a waste of time. But as it also applies here, is this not again just a settling down rather than a fighting (spiritually) to get to the kernel of truth?

Thought I was finished here but something else...

Belief. Unbelief. Do we not see how many things create unbelief by an over-examination? Would appeal again to the signature quote at the bottom here. Is this not so? Too much applied fleshly rationale and explanation that scorches what is [i]faith[/i] by way of 'reason'. Cannot but help seeing that word again coming into view; Opposite. I think Christendom has managed to theorize everything to death and I do mean [i]death[/i]. Death of believing that which defies our logic and rationale. We take the rather simple and difficult, because we are so slow to believe, and make it an exercise of applied science or psychology of the mind, or a program, a how to or some long drawn out 'schooling' that renders it ... useless. It is watered down to the point of no recognition nor effect. Both ways, by compromise and by exaggeration.

We as Christians are peculiar because we do in fact believe what is ridiculous to a natural mind. Think it was Fenelon who said that prayer was on the level of stupidity ... actually no, was thinking of Forsyth;

[i]Erasmus is always shocked with Luther. It is only an outlet of that
essential extravagance which makes the paradox of the Cross, and keeps it as
the irritant, no less than the life of the world--perhaps because it is the
life of the world. There is nothing so abnormal, so unworldly, so
supernatural, in human life as prayer, nothing that is more of an instinct,
it is true, but also nothing that is less rational among all the things that
keep above the level of the silly. The whole Christian life in so far as it
is lived from the Cross and by the Cross is rationally an extravagance. For
the Cross is the paradox of all things; and the action of the Spirit is the
greatest miracle in the world; and yet it is the principle of the world.
Paradox is but the expression of that dualism which is the moral foundation
of a Christian world. I live who die daily. I live another's life.[/i]

When it comes right down to it, we believe some rather fantastical things, that is if we are still in the business of believing Him.

Still yet foolish enough to believe that the Lord is still after this one thing;

1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Just guttural expression saints. There has been a great deal of charity and cooperative spirit in recent days and be it far from me to stir up something unnecessarily. Take it as it is, great sweeping generalities, just felt compelled to get it off my chest.

Mike,
I found this site saved on my favorites and was reading it for the first time...I do not know where I found it but the writer expresses similar sentiments that you have expressed here. (As of the moment I have not read it in its entirety. And pardon me if after reading it all, I find some serious disagreements!) Yes, I was reading it and when I came here and read your article, I thought it was interesting that two different writers were writing about similar concerns.
The site: http://www.professionalserve.com/doublespeak/diapraxC.htm

Your concerns are valid, IMHO. I am not old, according to my opinion:-o, but I am seeing a growing number of my age group rationalizing Biblical directives they have held in the past and are now questioning them. I am appalled! If the old[er] people are not stalwarts for truth, who can the young even look up to be role models for them! They are saying things like, "Well, you know this is what the [young] are saying and I guess ...." and so they gradually are capitulating to the prevailing winds that are sure to blow them away.

This verse has been coursing around in my mind as of late, has been challenging me and wonder where it will all lead to: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.hhhhmmmm.

Mike, you left a lot of food for thought...will need to read it more. But your concern for the absoluteness of truth cannot ever be over exaggerated because there is an eternity up ahead. This is serious and once we are there, there is no turning back. This alone should strike some holy fear within our hearts.

Blessings,
ginnyrose

capitulating

Ah! [i]That word[/i] ... incredible, I am unsure what it is but quite often the intimations are just solitary words, this has been percolating for a number of days now.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.hhhhmmmm.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And leads off to;

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

And ...

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

You do have me curious now, will have to read the link.

Jeannette,

Liked your illustrations and think you may be forwarding more of the same ... this does explain much, but what I am asking or rebuttal-ing against is that this is acceptable. It may be the way it is, but it is the very settling for it that I am opposed to. What we have is lopsided disciples because of it.

Sister ... This is my kind of mad man! :-)

Am barely through the preface and coulnd't resist...

[i]It was and still is only in Him that I receive the joy and peace and love that sustains me in this perverse generation. Realizing that this generation includes me, it is all the more amazing that He forgives me even when I fail Him again and again. This is something socio-psychologists will never be able to accept, because my salvation does not lie in the gray zone of human reasoning, where facts become ambiguous, feelings become ambivolent, and justification becomes automatic. My salvation does not reside in "higher-order thinking skills" or in "cosmic oneness," but in the "practical" words "It is written." and "It is Finished!" and the one who declared it so almost 2,000 years ago. He has given me His rest, not the cognitive dissonance, chaotic, coping, conflict-management stress promoted by socio-psychologists today.[/i]

[i] The following information is not about God's armor per se, but about the scheme by which the great deceiver plans to remove our awareness of its availability and power. To my dismay, many Christians are participating in armor removal for the sake of world harmony[/i]

Some restraint to not just post it all ... Really looking forward to this.

It is an anti-Berean mindset that certainly must be influenced by the very devil himself.

Amen brother!

Keep finding far too many instances where we as Christians are doing the exact opposite of what we have been instructed, commanded even.

Is this new? I get discouraged at times then I remember that a wiser man than I said..."there is nothing new under the sun"

I'm a missionary. I have been sent to one of the most un-Godly places on Earth...

...an American Christian University.

I see what you are talking about everyday...I cry alot.

This is one of my favorite quotes:

"I am a Bible Christian and if an archangel with a wingspread as broad as a constellation shining like the sun were to come and offer me some new truth, I'd ask him for a reference. If he could not show me where it is found in the Bible, I would bow him out and say, 'I'm awfully sorry, you don't bring any references with you'" - A. W. Tozer

God bless you brother.

Hi everyone.

Ginnyrose,

"They are saying things like, "Well, you know this is what the [young] are saying and I guess ...." and so they gradually are capitulating to the prevailing winds that are sure to blow them away."

[b][color=000000] And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them. And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.[/color][/b]

[i]...the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.[/i]

-Isaiah 3:4-5

"Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the Lord." -Leviticus 19:32

I'm a missionary. I have been sent to one of the most un-Godly places on Earth...

...an American Christian University.

Cannot even respond appropriately to this brother but after reading through about half of the link ginnyrose provided think I can partially grasp just how bad it might be. Could well understand the tears ...

[i]In dialogue all one can do is deviate from an original position. This is why Jesus did not dialogue with Satan when tempted by him in the wilderness. Instead He held to His position by quoting "First Cause," the scriptures (position sub-phase), with "It is written..." and did not respond with "I think..." or "I feel..." (definition sub-phase), Matthew 4:1-11.[/i]

[i] Therefore, if we believe that God's Word is true, all we can do is give His definition. We thereby give Him control over our life. If we deviate from it, we give the process of compromise (diaprax—Satan's scheme) control over us. I speak in regards to values, beliefs, and morals, which is what this process concerns itself with.

We never truly control the definitions, we simply submit to the one who gives them to us. Because we are talking about structure of thought and not laws of nature, that source can only come from the Creator or from our human nature (higher-order thinking, compromise, or self-justification), which is cosmic bound and subject to the spirit of rebellion—Satan.[/i]

A great deal of this is somewhat 'heady' from what I may be accustomed to or would generally find myself reading, a bit of a challenge to grasp on the particular phraseology he uses. But that didn't stop me from grasping the point and his breaking this whole process down is very interesting if not down right grevious. Whatever the intended motivation of these propigators of this ... phenomenon, seems it is both agenda and a being caught up in the wake of the efforts, not difficult to see the effects that are produced. That it has influenced the church is surely evident ... it is as if he is dismantling the whole thing to show how it works.

It dawned on me somewhere along the line why the preface grabbed my heart maybe more than anything. Recognized that a preface can actually be a summary conclusion as it seems most are written after all the work is finished. No wonder this expression;

[i]This is a hurried project, not only because the time to respond appears to be running out, but also because I personally have had enough of it and at times desparately want out. "Get a life!" often crosses my mind. It appears that the pilgrims were the ones with that opportunity. I don't think there is any place to run from this process these days. My refuge is a true and sure one, though. Despite my outward complaining, God has always proven Himself faithful. Something I cannot say in regard to myself or my fellow man.[/i]

Brother Mike, Proverbs 26:4-5 seems to be much appropriate for our day and some of the outakes you qouted made me think of it.

[i]Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.[/i]

Aligning with...

because...[i]it is written[/i].

because...[i]it is written[/i].

Amen. Had used as the heading "Because I said so" earlier as he did and was breaking down the dichotomy that rejects ultimate authority as part and partial of this whole 'Diaprax'.

Bringing this back to the begining, the concern still is that of our own kind ... to appeal to us all whatever the preconceived notions that there is really no such thing as many intrepetations or that that is acceptable. It does break down ino that seemingly cliche' like mantra of "One of us is wrong ..."

"Let God be true and every man a liar" carries much more ... demand than we may well admit to.

Brother Mike wrote:

This idea that there is everybody's interpretation as a settled matter is just wrong and if we give up on this line or approach it as somehow forever elusive that we can "agree to disagree" ... To be honest heard that elsewhere, that this was a faulty concept and at first it struck me sideways, as a matter of fact and maybe it planted the first seeds of this whole thing.

This is the work of the Spirit. To "agree to disagree" means that we have decided not to grow in Christ.

God Bless
Jeff

This is the work of the Spirit. To "agree to disagree" means that we have decided not to grow in Christ.

Well said.

John 17:14-18
I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them
because they are not of the world,
even as I am not of the world.
I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through Thy truth; Thy word is truth.
As Thou has sent me into the world, even so
have I also sent them into the world.”

The commission of the saints is not that of their own choices, but rather that which was given by way of Christ.
Christ, the focus of God the Father,
the focus of ALL Scripture,
the Beginning and the End,
The Lamb slain from the beginning of the world.
How is it that as mere humanity could be any more than we sanctify God in our hearts
by the indwelling Christ
and the gift He has given us by His Holy Spirit?

Christ spoke in this way:
Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice….. And Pilate saith unto him, What is truth?

Even now many proclaiming themselves to be Christians are asking that same question. “What is truth?” and Christ indeed says the same thing:
“Every one that HEARETH!”
“to him that has ears to hear”
“He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..”
He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: AND HE THAT LOVETH Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him.”

Truth is not merely an understanding,
It is a person,
The person of Jesus Christ.

And how many times has one person met another and noticed different things about that person? The way they move, the way they speak, their kindness, their severity; it is not that one understanding is above another, perhaps it is that since all GIFTS are not the same, the way the express what they find attributable about that person is just not the same as the other person expresses.

Not that we as mere humanity can fully EVER express, or delineate, or comprehend the fullness of God, the fullness of the God head, the fullness of all that is held within Christ. No, all we can do is say:

God, YOU alone are true! You alone are Sovereign, You alone are Wise! All that I have been given comes from Your hand alone! In my own mind are human understandings which may seem so good, so true; yet I know that when held against the Light of Your presence are mere drawings in the sand of a child; only a reflection of this or that truth.

No, Lord, may I only speak as one who was given a gift of light, a nugget of understanding, a small piece in the overall stature of the Man Christ. May my heart EVER be ready to yield, for in this alone is the wisdom of God made manifest. And though I yield, I know that which you have given, that which is UNMOVABLE, the Spirit of God who stands as an stalwart refuge of unquestionable truth and understanding! And this great Mystery has been planted within this clay vessel, the hope of Glory! That NOT I, BUT CHRIST should be the banner over my heart!

May YOU be seen, God of Light, and may my face fade into an obscurity blending into the fabric that tears not, that clothes the Church of Jesus Christ with love, humility, and the very power of God! That not mine, but THINE! Not My will, but Thine, not too our glory, oh Lord, but to THEE alone be all praise, honor, and glory!

May we all pray together, that God would help us to have proper understanding, not according to men, but according to the Holy Spirit, who is One with God the Father and God the Son, who dwells and rules within the true body of Christ!

Amen to your words brothers and sisters!

I can't help getting just a little teary eyed reading threads like this. Tears born out of restored hope that not all is lost. Tears born from the recognition that the Spirit of God is moving in the hearts of His children, spurring us on to lay hold of HIM.

Thank you brother Mike, for as much as your post was a setting forth of a warning and a grievance, and a bit rambling at that, yet it warmed my heart greatly. It also continues to add to the burden for prayer, a burden I am inexpresably thankful for, without which I would be as lukewarm tapwater.

Lor_E,
I will not overly praise [i]you[/i] for what you wrote. I thought I was reading Spurgeon or Tozer or some other saint who has gone on to glory. These brothers spoke as with a holy unction, the wisdom of which has only One source.

Giving thanks to God for His blessed remnant,

Doug

crsschk wrote:

This is the work of the Spirit. To "agree to disagree" means that we have decided not to grow in Christ.

Well said.

How then does one stay out of strife with brother or sister who holds what you believe are false doctrines? If a Presbyterian and a Roman Catholic, after consulting the Holy Spirit, cannot agree, yet the matter does not affect the basic nature of Salvation through Christ, are we to disassociate? Coming from a background of female Catholics, and male Presbyterians(Parents and both sets of Grandparents), the issue is not lightly taken to agree to disagree.

What say you?

Forrest

How then does one stay out of strife with brother or sister who holds what you believe are false doctrines? If a Presbyterian and a Roman Catholic, after consulting the Holy Spirit, cannot agree, yet the matter does not affect the basic nature of Salvation through Christ, are we to disassociate? Coming from a background of female Catholics, and male Presbyterians(Parents and both sets of Grandparents), the issue is not lightly taken to agree to disagree.

What say you?

Not entirely alone there, my own being both Catholics and the comparisons would end there, can't imagine what your situation might have been like... Surely this is a volatile can of worms to pry the lid off of.

Wish I could recall who it was now, seems it was at the time when the disputing were fresh in the Armenian\\Calvin ... uprising I guess I could call it. But it was some saint that disagreed with one side or the other but his deeper grievance was not with those he disagreed with but the ones who he did agree with. It was their method of approach, their unruly anger, how they went about it that ended up making him an outcast and branded a heretic by his own 'agree-r's'. It was a poignant point that left a deep impression, it's buried in this site somewhere.

The problem is manifold I full well recognize. The normal knee jerk reactions would scream [i]compromise[/i]! I can even hear it redounding in my own ears if I let it ... But that is not the level or the directional aim. "Ecumenicism" I can also hear outside ponding on the door as it were and that too is not anywhere near the expression as best I can tell it is asking for compromise and that which cannot be compromised.

The problem with the statement is that it is false. We do not agree at all to disagree, we disagree period. It is a false dichotomy. Somebody is wrong, period. What really takes place is a giving up. We cease and go our separate ways. And ultimately we fail [i]if[/i] one side or the other gives up... I can tell already that I am failing mightily to give off the expression I would ... I am not even sure that the intent was to rally a calling to the ideal, though it has always been the great dilemma to wrestle with this text;

Luk 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
Luk 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; [b]and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us[/b].

Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, [b][i]Forbid him not[/i][/b]: for he that is not against us is for us.

That coupled with the Lords own words;

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I do not have the answer. I do know there is one interpretation, not many and it is the one intended even if it might have a multiple of proscriptions ... The error will always be on our end, the strife and contention, the misapplication, the wrong doctrines derived and certainly there will always be those things emphatically stated within the scriptures themselves ... Maybe I am asking for the impossible, that we lay down everything to pure, whole biblical truth ... All of it.

Including 'our' "interpretations".

Outlandish I know ...

Just like in Acts with Paul and Mark. Agree to disagree but doesn't mean you have to walk the same path. ;-)

“He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart. The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.” Prov 11:29-30

“Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge; but a fool layeth open his folly. A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health. Poverty and shame shall be to him the refuseth instruction: but he that regarded reproof shall be honored.” Prov 13:16-18

“Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building…………….But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.” 1 Cor. 3:8-10

“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
THAT YOUR FAITH SHOULD NOT STAND IN THE WISDOM OF MEN, BUT IN THE POWER OF GOD.” 1Cor 2:1-5

Foolish men, wicked men, deceptive men, men with divided hearts and minds: men whose kingdoms had self propagating directions, means, and fruit: all these making an impression upon the “eons” influenced other humans by means of “captivating” speech, intrigue, and intellectual prowess. (And do to this day, what do you suppose “marketing” is based on?) The kingdom of God has never been built with men’s hands. God has called such activity an abomination and has not ever changed His mind.

NO! men who are submitted to the authority of the Holy Spirit, HOLY MEN of old, who were moved by the HOLY SPIRIT, these have shaped the hearts of the BODY of Christ! Unfortunately, there are many who believe that since they hang ‘round the tree they are therefore planted into it! Some RELIGIONS teach that you must be hanging on the tree or you are not IN the tree, that only by participating in what THEY DO are you then thus saved.

Jesus said, “Every branch IN ME!” Not mere sitting in the church, not simply listening to a “service”, not just partaking in bread, not praying with many words that mean nothing, not pronouncing a prayer or raising a hand or moving forward to the front of the church building!

NO! Rather that which God has called to Himself,
that which has been drawn by the POWER of the Holy Spirit;
that which has responded to the inner miserable understanding of their own FAILURE to ever reach unto anything that is somewhat acceptable to God under their own power! ALL MY WORKS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS!
Only those who will FALL upon the rock and be broken…
Only those who will cry out, “What must we do to be saved”…..
Only those that render their own hearts inadequate and reach with EMPTY hands to an ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED FACT; that Jesus Christ came to this earth to save SINNERS, of which I am chief!!

NO UNDERSTANDING, NO INTERPERTATION, NO RELIGIOUS ACTS, NO FLAGELLATING, NO TEARS ALONE, NO WORDS ALONE, ONLY THIS ONE THING! That lest I learn what the Son of God would have me to do I AM UNDONE!!

HERE I STAND, this human crate with no chance in this life, no hope, no life, my own works have brought me to this pit. Yet, somewhere in the depths of my dark heart there is a pierced hand reaching out to ME, One that beckons to me: “COME UNTO ME ALL YE THAT LABOR AND ARE HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST!”

Error! humanity was born into it! They lavish themselves in it, consume it as a tasty trifle, ignore it when it sits besides them and whispers in their ear- tickling their human need and desire. We all walk along paths that are spoiled and muddied by the trash of error along the way. No, as Watchman Nee says, you may not be able to be unable to get your feet dirty along the way but that doesn’t mean you should roll along the ground and become covered by it! NO! Instead practice the washing of feet, not mere running water, BUT with LIVING WATER! That which comes from ABOVE! That which bubbles up from the very GIFT of God within your very heart!

How can we deal with such error within such an error ridden world and time? With family and friends and churches walking in so much error they are in danger of hell fire?

No, there is NO “pat answer”, only ONE answer; “God, for the sake of heaven, for the sake of the gospel, for the sake of My Savior Jesus Christ what would ye have me to do?” How much should I pray for those held in the sway of error? How much should I pray for the masses whose hearts are hardened by sin, by deceit, by selfishness? How much should I seek God’s face for the brother or sister who believe that being RIGHT is more important than being Godly?

Is my speech going to change their hearts? Is my understanding going to sway theirs? Do I have the discernment, wisdom and grace that’s needed for this present moment? Do I have the source of LIFE flowing in my veins that will be a representative of the very KINGDOM of God to all I come into contact with?

“Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God……
nevertheless we, according to HIS promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in PEACE, without spot,, and blameless.” 2Peter 3:11-14

Brother Forrest wrote:

If a Presbyterian and a Roman Catholic, after consulting the Holy Spirit, cannot agree,

Did both consult the Holy Spirit through searching the word of God found in the Holy Scriptures...

Psalm 119:

103 How sweet are Your words to my taste,
\t\tSweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding;
\t\tTherefore I hate every false way.
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet
\t\tAnd a light to my path.

Only the word of God can bring unity that is found in Christ. The word of God will show us every false way. The word of God is the only means by which we are enabled to see the path that must be taken. In His wisdom, He is able to reconcile our differences.

The only things we must do...be willing to listen to what Scripture says to us.

In Christ
Jeff