The Church Age

The problem with the correct view of Prophecy is the understanding of Daniels 70 weeks. See "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson. 69 weeks from the going forth of the order to REBUILD JERUSALEM until the coming of the Mesheach Nagid
(Messiah the King) The date was probably Apr 5/32AD There was an intervening period which we know as the Church Age between the 69th and 70th weeks. It is not a problem of Hermeneutics but a question of Ecclesiaology. That is not understanding interpretation, but understanding and recognizing the Church. We have to recognize that the Church Age is a Parenthesis, and it will close before God deals with Israel.
When the times of the Gentiles is full, God will again turn his face toward Israel.
In Rev 2:10 Jesus says He will keep the Church of Philadelphia from the hour of tepmtation that will come on the world. Yet in the same chapter other churches are either not referred to or told they will go through this judgement. Those who had lost their first love, were luke warm etc.
It is a principle of scripture that God removes "His elect" before judgement.
Enoch was removed (translated) before the Flood, Lot before the angels judged Sodom, Rahab was removed before walls fell in Jericho and the Church will be removed before the time of Jacobs trouble.
When Jesus was speaking to His disciples about the Church He said the Gates of Hell would not prevail against it, yet in Revelation it says the Beast was given power to overcome the saints.
Overcome means to kill, research it. Either Jesus was mistaken or the Revelation of Jesus Christ is speaking about saints other than the church saints. These are Tribulation saints and they are martyred. The 24 elders that appear before the throne throughout Revelation, are the church and this can be determined by a process of elimination. They are not angels because it says they are in front of ALL the angels, they are not Israel because they are on earth. There are several logical points that reveal that Christ will come back for His own in the Harpazo, the last point I will make is the marriage feast. If the Harpazo, or Rapturo (Rapture is at the end of the tribulation when is the feast? Jewish tradition says a bridegroom goes away and returns unexpectedly and takes His bride and a feast of 7 days follows. Since the final week is part of this heptatic structure it is fair to assume that the feast will last for the duration of the 7 years,
The Final week of Daniels 70 weeks. If it is at the end of this week then it is reduced to a boxed lunch, and not the traditional feast spoken of. The Church age draws to a close and Israel will take centre stage very soon, and God will put flesh on the dry bones. They will call upon the one whom they pierced, and all Israel will be saved in one day. To say less is not to understand Gods plan for the Church and Israel, that they are seperated by time and Covenants.
If any of you have doubts or confusion on this matter, don't fret, soon the time will come and we will explain it to you on the way up. :-)
God Bless and keep you all Wynner01

The Final week of Daniels 70 weeks. If it is at the end of this week then it is reduced to a boxed lunch, and not the traditional feast spoken of. The Church age draws to a close and Israel will take centre stage very soon, and God will put flesh on the dry bones. They will call upon the one whom they pierced, and all Israel will be saved in one day. To say less is not to understand Gods plan for the Church and Israel, that they are seperated by time and Covenants.

Well, that's a fairly concise explanation of the Dispensational point of view, at least. In terms of church history it is very much a minority view.

I no longer have "doubts and confusions" about this view; I lost them when I abandoned it. ;-)

My understanding of the prophesy:

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let’s see certain things must happen during the 70 weeks:
1. Finish transgression – Jesus did that.
2. Put an end to sin – Jesus did that.
3. Atone for iniquity – Jesus did that.
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness – Jesus did that.
5. Seal vision and prophet – Jesus did that.
6. Anoint the most Holy – Jesus was anointed.

This is one of the most difficult prophecies to understand. Many see a 2000+ year parenthesis in this prophesy, but I do not. I see an unbroken 70 weeks as follows:
70 weeks (Sevens) for a total of 490 years.
7 weeks (49 years) in which Jerusalem and the wall is rebuilt.
62 weeks (434 years) later Messiah will come (Jesus was anointed at His Baptism and began His ministry.
Once Jesus began His ministry (the 70th week), He confirmed a covenant with many (the lost sheep of Israel - Matthew 10:6, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24, “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”) and in the middle of this 7 year period, He was crucified. His crucifixion caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease because Jesus was the sacrifice that ended the need for the Temple sacrifices. After the 70th week the Disciples were sent out to the Gentiles (Acts moves from Peter in Jerusalem to Paul in Antioch) and the Romans came and destroyed the Temple. Jesus warned His disciples about the destruction of the Temple and called this the Great Tribulation and the abomination that causes desolation.

and in the middle of this 7 year period, He was crucified. His crucifixion caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease because Jesus was the sacrifice that ended the need for the Temple sacrifices.

I'm glad you brought this up because I had a question about it I wanted to ask to someone who held this view.

A few weeks ago someone sent me some DVDs. I have no idea who the person is and at the time didn't know how they got my address because they live hundreds of miles away from me. The DVDs seem to teach what you just mentioned.

Jesus' ministry was about 3 1/2 years and he was cruisified. Do you believe that it was about 3 1/2 years before the Gentiles were grafted in? That is how the man in the DVD believed.

You are asking if the Gentiles were "grafted in" (As Paul says in Romans) at the end of the 70th week.

We do see in Acts the progression from Peter to Paul, from Jerusalem to Antioch. We see that Paul is converted, the Ethiopian Eunuch, and Cornelius that shows the church that the Gentiles are accepted.

Interesting question. There is this movement of God towards the Gentiles that had never been known before.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city

The guy on the DVD interpreted that to mean it was specificly dealing with Israel. So, the 3 1/2 years after His death was still dealing with Israel.

I like to see some Biblical evidence of how long before the Gentiles were "grafted in" to do some more thinking on it.

Hi,
I didnt know we were in a minority!thats great! but seriously I think their is a problem with Hermeneutics as well.The majority of the bible is written by Jews.I think to understand the end times properly we have to factor that in.We should understand about how they used patterns and types in prophesy.Below is a download about midrash that is worth a listen I think.
[url=www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11893]www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11893[/url]
We just use the types we want to use and forget about the less obvious ones.
Rgds Staff

In what manner Christ is to come out of Zion, and in what way or when by what means he is to turn away transgression from Jacob, we cannot tell; and to attempt to conjecture, when the time, occasion, means, etc., are all in mystery, would be more than reprehensible.

""You are asking if the Gentiles were "grafted in" (As Paul says in Romans) at the end of the 70th week.""

In Christ: Phillip

The question that must be asked is:

Did Jesus accomplish everything that was determined to be accomplished in the 70 weeks?

1. Finish transgression
2. Put an end to sin
3. Atone for iniquity
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. Seal vision and prophet
6. Anoint the most Holy

If He has then their is no mystery parenthesis and future 70th week.

I am one who grew up believing in a future 70th week. Also, a few years ago when my desire for the Bible really began to grow, I began to study why I believed what I believed. I read From Daniel to Doomsday by John Hagee and became convinced that what I believed was true. However, the more I read the Bible the less I saw what John said was in there. I noticed that John speculated more than I was comfortable with and when I stopped taking these speculations at face value I began to notice that his argument began to crumble. Then I will never forget reading an article that said that all 70 weeks were continuous and that the prophesy was pointing to Jesus and not to a future Antichrist. The Spirit brought peace about this prophesy for the first time. No longer did I see a secular Roman emperor sitting in a rebuilt Jewish Temple ruling the world, but I saw Jesus! I see Jesus giving His life and confirming a New Covenant with us all. In Him, my transgressions are finished, sin does not master me, my iniquity is atoned for, everlasting righteousness awaits me, I await no more revelations but only seek illumination from the Spirit, and I serve the Anointed One--The Holy Son of God.

My view... highly condensed...

Daniel had been studying the prophecies of Jeremiah and discovered that 70 years of desolations had been predicted for Jerusalem. He calculates that the 70 year is almost up and sets himself to pray for the fulfillment of God's word.

He knows that the desolations had come because of the nation's sin and he confesses that sin and casts himself upon God's mercies. God's answer is that after the 70 years of desolation there would be 70 times 7 years of mercy for Jerusalem (Jesus used 70 x 7 as an expression of generous forgiveness)

483 years into this period of respite the Messiah would come (this is the only place in the KJV where the word 'Messiah' is used) Up to this point most Christians are agreed... approximately.

I personally see the as being the period of the LOrd's public ministry and the 3 and a half years which immediately followed his death and resurrection.

which sounds pretty much as your cds.

Nicely put Ron.

Maybe you can help me fill in a hole that he seemed to be missing. The "DVD man" (I don't remember his name) said that it was 3 1/2 years after the Resurection that Paul was converted and that signified that the Gentiles would be grafted in, since Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. But Paul didn't immediatly start doing his work towards the Gentiles. From what I can tell, there are atleast 3 years inbetween Paul's conversion and Peter going to the Cornelius' house.

Here is why I believe that.

Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at [color=0000FF]Damascus.[/color]
Act 9:20 ¶ And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21 But all that heard [him] were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.
Act 9:23 ¶ And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
Act 9:24 But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.
Act 9:25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let [him] down by the wall in a basket.
Act 9:26 ¶ And when Saul was come to [color=330000]Jerusalem[/color], he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto [color=0000FF]Damascus[/color].
Gal 1:18 ¶ [color=CC0000]Then after three years[/color] I went up to [color=330000]Jerusalem[/color] to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

I cannot defend the "DVD man" because I don't know who he is or what all he is saying.

All I know is that during the middle of the 70th week/seven, Messiah is "cut off" and causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease. This means that in God's eyes the ceremonial law with its ordinances have been put away.

Whether or not it was 3 1/2 years after the resurrection that Paul was converted, I cannot say. But I do know that the gospel went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. I know that Acts begins with Peter in Jerusalem and ends with Paul in Rome. I know that Jerusalem fades away halfway through the book and Antioch becomes the center for Christianity, and the first place Christ followers are called Christians.

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and they rejected Him, then later He commissioned Paul to be the apostle to the Gentiles in fulfillment of God's divine plan.

I'll do something thinking on it. I've had a few changes in doctrine in the last 6 months or so, so I'm giving it some time. I'm not to favorable of having very many changes in my theology all at once. I want to give it some time. Espeically when it is disagrees with what everyone in my church believes. :-D

I understand completely. God will lead you were He desires you to be. God Bless.

hi Jaysaved,
Its a bit odd the the bible would be so specific on the 70 wks and in the end leave it up to guess work.

[u][size=xx-small]Whether or not it was 3 1/2 years after the resurrection that Paul was converted, I cannot say[/size][/u]
Rgds Staff

staff,

The problem is not with the prophesy, the problem is with me. I cannot be dogmatic and say that the 70 weeks prophesy ended with Paul's conversion. It could have, but I am not in the position to say that it does.

Now, the other position leaves everything up to speculation, the 70th week begins with a peace treaty with the one world leader making a covenant with the Jewish people who have rebuilt the temple and set up the sacrificial system, then this one world leader betrays the Jews half way through and tells them to stop sacrificing. See what I mean, it is pure speculation and cannot be substantiated with any other biblical text.