613 Laws of the Torah

I was on a message board where a whole bunch of people are saying we as Christians need to follow all 613 laws. They are saying that you are being a disobedient Christian if you do not. Now when Pauls epistles/verses/texts were brought up they said that too many have changed Bible to be anti-jewish.
Now my last post I lost my temper, bringing up the fact that they don't practice stoning people so they are knowingly breaking the law, and called them accursed.
I was wondering if there may be a better more sophisticated way to taking with these folk...or should I just pray that they cut themselves off?

What about James (and the rest of the apostles), was he anti-jewish too?

[b]Act 15:5 \tBut there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 \tAnd the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.[/b]

Act 15:13 \t And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:
Act 15:14 \tSimeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Act 15:15 \tAnd to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 \tAfter this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 \tThat the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Act 15:18 \tKnown unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:19 \tWherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 \tBut that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.
Act 15:21 \tFor Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 15:22 \tThen pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Act 15:23 \tAnd they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Act 15:24 \tForasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
Act 15:25 \tIt seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 \tMen that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 \tWe have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 \tFor it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 \tThat ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Greetings...

I don't have time right now to respond, but go to the recent thread The Ark of the Covenant and read the comments there. They deal with this clearly.

"Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5.1).

AD

I hesitate to say this but I took 5 semesters of classes on the 613 Laws of the Old Testament and can tell you without question that keeing those laws is not only in contrast to the New Covenant, it is impossible- even for practicing Jews.

I was wondering if there may be a better more sophisticated way to taking with these folk..

Note that Jesus never argued with the people or tried to reason with them. Instead he went directly for their conscience by using simple little events or stories to let THEM see that they were violating the law they so dearly cherished. Those were always little mercy drops: opportunities for them to admit their need for Christ’s sweet salvation.

You also said:

...or should I just pray that they cut themselves off?

“I wish those who unsettle and confuse you would [go all the way and] cut themselves off!” A(Gal. 5:12): Ampified

in other words:
“As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! NIV

Well, maybe Paul never suggested it directly to the legalizes. At any rate, keep full of the joy of the Spirit, and don’t let them agitate you! (That’s the least effective way to touch their consciences.) Remember how Jesus solved the problem: he loved them and died for them. What is God asking of you?

Diane

5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly.

You will recall that the Temple existed at that time. All laws related to the Temple are impossible to keep. This is why many have adopted alternate ways to 'keep' those laws. They have developed a system of halakah to keep the Law relevant to the Jews.

Hi everyone.

Sscott,

"5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah..."

Have noticed this too before. But then look at this statement Paul makes of himself in Philippians...

"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

Just something to consider.

Chris

ChrisJD wrote:

"5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah..."

Have noticed this too before. But then look at this statement Paul makes of himself in Philippians...

"Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

Just something to consider.

Chris

...Well, yes, Paul was blameless concerning the righteousness of the law, and so was Zechariah, because when they sinned they were no doubt diligent to offer the sin offering the Law provided. And in so doing they were keeping the righteousness of the law.

But now what are people going to do who inevitably break one of these 613 laws of the Torah they are so sure God is enjoining upon them? Offer a bullock or a goat? But these can never take away sin (Heb. 10.4). They were ordained only in the forbearance of God till the True Sacrifice should come on the scene to TOTALLY REMOVE SIN from the hearts of the sanctified (of those who come unto God BY HIM).

AD

I think Robert is saying, "Today there is no temple, so you cannot keep the 'laws' pertaining to the temple."

It's like trying to play basketball without a goal or a ball.

Yea.. Paul says the same thing about himself as the scriptures say about Zecharias.

Are we to deduce from this that both Paul and Zecharias were sinless?

: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:12)

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (I Timothy 1:15)

Love God Love Love Jesus Love the Spirit Love others.

Live out your faith.

This is the answer to all questions.

No, they were not sinless; they were merely circumspect to offer what the law prescribed for a sin offering. And in doing so they were then "blameless" as far as the righteousness of the law was concerned, as far as what the Law said was the right thing to do.

These sacrifices, however, while they kept a man in good standing with God as far as the Law was concerned, could not make a man "perfect as pertaining to the conscience" (Heb. 9.9). It would take the bringing in of a New, a BETTER Covenant, to do this.

Now, Christians who are into keeping the Torah are very quick to say they don't mean keeping the sacrifices of the Law. God forbid. They still want the comfort of the Blood of Christ when they sin. But by seeking to be justified by the Law they ARE in fact distancing themselves from the provision of the Cross, and from the Blood of Christ. "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you who are justified by the law: ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5.4).

AD

No. I never said they were sinless but that they kept the law blamelessly which is what the scriptures say.

I don't think we have ever talked about this in the forums, but it would be an interesting study, I think. Paul also said that he lived in all good conscience before God and man until 'this day'. I have often wondered what he meant by that. I think what he means is that he kept his conscience clear. If something was questionable he dealt with it. Another thing he says is that he kept his conscience 'void of offense.' This means also that he did not live in such a way that would lead others to stumble which is in keeping with the end of Romans.

The other word for blameless means unable to find fault. I wonder if the tense here is present. A 'here and now' blamelessness as opposed to a continual sinless perfection ( a perfect past).

I wonder if the tense here is present. A 'here and now' blamelessness as opposed to a continual sinless perfection ( a perfect past)

I'm not exactly sure which verse you were wondering about...

www.zhubert.com is a great site. You type the reference over on the left and it will give it to you in Greek (that is if you don't change the bible) and you move your mouse over the word and it will give you some info about it.

Hi Preach,

Luke 1:6 for starters. The word in question is 'blameless'.