Some differences from the KJV

sermonindex Apr 18, 2007

Some of you know I've been reading Tyndale's New Testament, 1534, very slowly, and gaining a great deal of blessing from it.

Ron Bailey (philologos) cites William Tyndale as his all-time hero, and I'm beginning to understand why.

What he (Ron) says about the way the KJV has been tweaked to soften its blows on the sensibilities of the monarch (King James VI of Scotland and I of England), who took the scriptural truth that God chooses rulers (which is true) one step beyond scripture with his 'divine right of kings' philosophy, seems to be true.

There is also a watering down of some truths about the separateness of those who know the Lord, from those who don't, and an exaggeration of the meaning of some exhortations, which come close to encouraging a ~~[i]~~works[/i] attitude.

As a personality, Tyndale's Paul is far more human, likable - even lovable - and certainly not unapproachable, than he appears in the KJV, where it is harder to find him as the tender-hearted winsome sinner-forgiven who fans faith and prays continually that believers may stay true to their heavenly calling.

sermonindex Apr 18, 2007

1 Thessalonians 5 (KJV)
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. ~~[i]~~And[/i] be at peace among yourselves.

Tyndale's New Testament
~~[i]~~We beseech you brethren, that ye know them which labour amoung you and have the oversight of you in the Lord and give you exhortation, that ye have them the more in love, for their works' sake, and be at peace with them.[/i]

sermonindex Apr 18, 2007

What he (Ron) says about the way the KJV has been tweaked to soften its blows on the sensibilities of the monarch (King James VI of Scotland and I of England), who took the scriptural truth that God chooses rulers (which is true) one step beyond scripture with his 'divine right of kings' philosophy, seems to be true.

Have you looked at the geneva bible at all? here is a discussion on it. I know from glancing at it with a friend there are some great commenatry notes that actually even take some jabs at the monarch and king because of his persecution and rule over these fleeing pilgrims.

~~[b]~~Geneva Bible[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16323&forum=36

R

RobertW Apr 18, 2007

As a personality, Tyndale's Paul is far more human, likable - even lovable - and certainly not unapproachable, than he appears in the KJV, where it is harder to find him as the tender-hearted winsome sinner-forgiven who fans faith and prays continually that believers may stay true to their heavenly calling.

That is the thing about translations- you almost always have to go back and try to compare what the original languages seem to be saying. Being fluent on Greek would be an invaluable thing.

sermonindex Apr 18, 2007

RobertW said

That is the thing about translations- you almost always have to go back and try to compare what the original languages seem to be saying. Being fluent on Greek would be an invaluable thing.

I agree. I have found myself thinking Tyndale might have had a slightly different Greek text, the meaning flows so effortlessly in places it has been obscured by the changes made to it in the KJV.

Particularly, I'd say his use of English itself and following the rules of English grammar, definitely add to the comprehensibility of Tyndale's rendering. He doesn't waste energy on being poetic, but he is a confident writer-in-English, employing all the devices legitimate to emphasise meaning and keep the narrative flowing.... while at the same time, not being afraid to repeat a phrase if that is the ~~[i]~~only[/i] way to clarify the meaning he intends to be conveyed. His style is admirable.

When I used the word 'continually' with regard to Paul's prayer life, it is a direct lift from a few lines further on in 1 Thess 5. (KJV first.)

17 Pray without ceasing.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and ~~[i]~~I pray God[/i] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Tyndale's New Testament
~~[i]~~Pray continually. ...

Examine all things, and keep that which is good. Abstain from all suspicious things. The very God of peace sanctify you throughout. And I pray God that your whole spirit, soul and body, be kept faultless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. [/i]

The word 'continually' is different from 'continuously', in that 'continually' allows for little breaks in service, or rests.

A good way to illuminte the difference is by thinking about rainy weather. If the rains keeps stopping and starting, one could say 'it rained continually'. But if there were no breaks in rain at all, it would be correct to say 'it rained continuously'.

'Pray without ceasing' is like saying 'pray continuously'... but we all struggle with this. Is this really what the Greek means? How many sermons have been preached to accommodate the KJV rendering, which means it will be a ~~[i]~~failure[/i] to stop praying for any reason at all? This is just one example of Roman thinking in the KJV.

sermonindex Apr 18, 2007

dorcas wrote:
The word 'continually' is different from 'continuously', in that 'continually' allows for little breaks in service, or rests.
A good way to illuminte the difference is by thinking about rainy weather. If the rains keeps stopping and starting, one could say 'it rained continually'. But if there were no breaks in rain at all, it would be correct to say 'it rained continuously'.
'Pray without ceasing' is like saying 'pray continuously'... but we all struggle with this. Is this really what the Greek means? How many sermons have been preached to accommodate the KJV rendering, which means it will be a ~~[i]~~failure[/i] to stop praying for any reason at all? This is just one example of Roman thinking in the KJV.

Hmmm, this should be the start of another thread maybe. Not the explanation of the difference between the two words (though that's interesting) but about the possibility of ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~"praying continuously".[/b][/i]

I wonder if we ~~[i]~~~~[b]~~do[/b][/i] actually "pray continuously" in our spirits. For example, you can be going about your daily business and suddenly been aware of a prayer or a worship song or hymn singing away "inside". Like hearing the sound of the waves when you live by the seaside, (or in my case of trains on the nearby railway line!) or even the ticking of a clock. It's so familiar and that we don't even notice it most of the time.

This of course is nothing to do with comparing the Tyndale Bible with the KJV, but just a thought...

I've been tempted to rip out the King James "dedication" at the front, because James wasn't a good man, even if he did authorise it! I suppose they wouldn't have been allowed ot publish it unless they put some flattering stuff about him...

I hate some of the OT page headings too.

Otherwise I prefer the KJV, (honest ;-)) but not especially for its accuracy (although some of thiat is probably because of the old-style English - many words having changed in meaning. So I keep Strong's Concordance handy to check it out when needed.

Jeannette

P

philologos Apr 20, 2007

WILLIAM TYNDALE: A BIOGRAPHY by David Daniel is a must-read book for fans of William Tyndale. If you like history and true historic discipline you will particularly like this book.

David Daniel will tell you what Tyndale studied at University and what books he was reading while he was engaged in the various revisions of the Tyndale translation. He will show you why Tyndale varied from Luther in the prologues to the New Testament books.

The book is now out of print but might be available second hand.

When you have read this you should then read ~~[url=http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Secretaries-Making-James-Bible/dp/0060838736/ref=sr_1_1/102-2621200-4988121?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177057418&sr=1-1]~~God's Secretaries[/url], the making of the King James Version.

No one should contend for one version against another until he has read these books... and BTW my version of preference is still the KJV. :-D

sermonindex Apr 20, 2007

sermonindex said

Have you looked at the geneva bible at all?

Thanks, and not yet, but I know I'm in my infancy of understanding the subtle differences between the translations.

Also, Daniell mentions the Geneva Bible and how widely it was used for a long time, so I have understood it was very influential in its day.

philologos said

No one should contend for one version against another until he has read these books

I will look out for them.... have read God's Outlaw.

My enjoyment of Tyndale's New Testament is based on what is striking my understanding with clarity, which I never saw before after much KJV reading. I'm stunned by the effect of the changes the KJV translators made, though often, when compared, they appear to be saying the same thing as Tyndale. But his meaning is not how theirs reads. It's weird.

It has occurred to me also, that in the same way as the KJV translators influenced certain verses, perhaps Tyndale also was compensating slightly for the mindset of his readers.

However, what comes through to my spirit is the work of an honest man who knew the Lord and both ~~[i]~~understood[/i] and loved His word.

P

PaulWest Apr 20, 2007

When you have read this you should then read God's Secretaries, the making of the King James Version

I read this book a few years ago. I thought it was well-written, but I had conflicting feelings on the actual bias of the author. It seemed at some points he was actually mocking certain of the translators. I think it's great to have a critical book on the origin of the KJV written by a secular-minded journalist/author. I just couldn't help noticing some little quirks. Did you pick up on any of these, Ron?

I wish I had the book to reference certain examples right now, but I'm not at home. I clearly remember the author rather shamefully depicting one of the translators as "mentally disturbed" and "depressed" and "pathetic" for his tendency to spend hours and hours each morning while he "wept over sin". I thought, "Yes! Would to God I had a heart for the same!" The author, however, seemed to clearly misunderstand this and instead chalk it off as some kind of mental incompetency. I remember chuckling at this, thinking how ironic. This is so typical of how the unregenerate interpret the things of God.

It was a wonderful, fact-filled book (though I am no King James expert) and, like Ron, I also recommend giving it a whirl. Just beware of certain insensitivities (at least, this was ~~[i]~~my[/i] interpretation).

Ron may very well disagree.

Brother Paul

T

theopenlife Apr 20, 2007

Is there somewhere online that I can read the Tyndale version? Especially perhaps one with modern spelling?

Thanks.

P

PreachParsly Apr 20, 2007

~~[url=http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/tyndale/index.htm]~~Right Here[/url]

It says it was made available by Ron Bailey... I wonder if this is the Ron Bailey of this site...

J

JaySaved Apr 20, 2007

Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker. :-)

J

JaySaved Apr 20, 2007

I recently bought ~~[url=http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-William-Tyndale/dp/1840221291/ref=sr_1_13/103-1271459-7508638?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177090336&sr=8-13]~~this version[/url] of Tyndale's New Testament. It is great because it also contains his notes.

sermonindex Apr 22, 2007

Re: Is there somewhere online?

Hi openlife

This is the modern-spelling version I'm using.

Although I've given you the UK link (below), I know it is available new through bookstores currently in the US, for $21.

~~[url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tyndales-New-Testament-William-Tyndale/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_2/026-8141730-5544443?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177260387&sr=1-2]~~http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tyndales-New-Testament-William-Tyndale/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_2/026-8141730-5544443?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177260387&sr=1-2[/url]

This version is technically copyright from being put online.

sermonindex Apr 22, 2007

Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker

Yas, soo culd I. I em nut da bestest spelr in da werld.

Krispy

sermonindex Apr 22, 2007

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Tyndale sure could have used a spell checker
Yas, soo culd I. I em nut da bestest spelr in da werld.
Krispy

:-P

Have you ever read the original KJV 1611? English had not yet been standardized so there are alot of crazy spellings. I have a copy and read it often. It has the apocrypha stuck right in the middle (which is good for historical value). I really like the way this bible flows. All those mispelled words add something to it. It's like you can't wait to turn the page to see whats next.

B

BeYeDoers Apr 23, 2007

It's "misspelled" :-P

R

rookie Apr 26, 2007

From Tyndale...

Ephesians 2:1-3

"And hath quickened you also that were dead in trespass and sin, in the which in the time past ye walked, according to the course of this world, and after the governor that ruleth in the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of unbelief, among which we also had our conversation in time past, in the lusts of our flesh, and fulfilled the will of the flesh and of the mind: and were naturally the children of wrath, even as well as the other."

I found first, that the 'governor that ruleth in the air" works in the children of "unbelief."

Do you see what this is saying?

Also, secondly, we all "had our conversation in time past," with this "governor."

What does it mean to converse with the "governor" of this world?

In Christ
Jeff

Edit...

PS...I found that the KJV is similar to the Tyndale translation...I usually quote from the NKJV.

P

philologos Apr 26, 2007

I wonder if this is the Ron Bailey of this site...

As it happens... yes, it is. I did it quite a few years ago.

sermonindex Apr 27, 2007

philologos said

...BTW my version of preference is still the KJV.

I agree that the general English of the KJV is more accessible now, but this is partly because of the way some older English has changed in meaning.... for instance, Tyndale's use of the word 'fortune' could be confusing.

Since you posted your comments, Ron, I've realised even more how my love of hymns and their quaint re-ordering of words in sentences, had prepared me for making sense of Tyndale.

Without doubt, his style could be a lot of work for some people. But for me, also ~~[i]~~without doubt[/i], the Holy Spirit has used his classical English to bring some meanings to life for me. And I find his marginal notes helpful.